Where in the world did you get this info from? The Quran is directed at EVERYONE. And women are mentioned far more times then men are. And there even is a sura direct for women, A whole sura.
[quote]
Originally posted by Bluebell:
Where in the world did you get this info from? The Quran is directed at EVERYONE. And women are mentioned far more times then men are. And there even is a sura direct for women, A whole sura.
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Oh my God! A whole sura! God thought to address me in one sura out of how many, probably thousands? The Quran is directed to women only through males, as in "your women," "your wife," etc. That's not equality.
[quote]
Originally posted by Al-Farooq:
** Sarah Sahiba: Ab aap ko dua kee nahee, dawa kee zaroorat hay (you need medicine not prayers).
And why did you ask a man to pray for you? And why would Allah accept prayers for a woman?
**
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WHAT? Why would Allah accept prayers for a woman? Are you trying to provoke me or is that really true? I never knew men couldn't pray for women. See, even more equality!
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Sarah,
I hope this helps:
http://www.islamzine.com/women/british.htm
http://www.beconvinced.com/WHATTHEYSAY.htm http://www.beconvinced.com/WOMENINDEX.htm
“No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it.”
Regarding the debate going on for "Why Quran was addressed mainly to Men" ? we need to read following Hadith and ponder upon it with our inner visions and Fear of Allah, otherwise, we will end-up in mere great loss.
A Sahih Hadith Quoted in Sahih Muslim says something less or something more like;
" You will find people keep arguing about various things untill the point when they will say, Ok God has created everything, then who created the God ???, and when you hear such thing from yourself or from somebody else, then say "Lahaul Wala Quaatta Illah Billah" or " Aauzubillah Minashaitaan-er-Rajeem'
May be this discussion seems like leading to something similar which abovementioned Hadith has already revealed, so better leave the person with all the doubts in her mind, as before understanding Islam or the Divine matters, one need to first have firm belief in following;
1- In Oneness of Allah.
2- In Last Prophecy of Muhammad(MPUH).
3- In all the four Books(whatever is written in these books, specially in Quraan and having firm belief calls for no doubt at all).
4- In getting another life after the death.
We need to first verify if we all have firm conviction and belief in Quraan, then we shall take it from there, otherwise there are a lot more to aruge for a person who is arguing about such things which is not supposed to keep us safe from Hell Fire or will do any good for our betterment in any of the two lives.Just for example there are couple of more things(out of hundreds)which we may not be able to find any reason or justification from our very limited understanding skills, and where all the science and logic will fail , like;
How did a She Camel came out of a Mountain having a 10 month old pregnancy ? (during the days of Hazrat Saleh(AS).
How did Prophet(MPUH) cut down the Moon into two pieces by his finger's ?
Why there is no meaning of various words like Alif Laam Meem ? Ka Ha Ya Ain Saad ?
Alif Laam Raa ? etc. etc.How Hazrat Eissa(AS) was birthed without a Father ?
How could a child of few months or year spoke up about the innocence of Hazrat Yousuf(AS)?
We must dis-continue this discussion now and shall pray for our focus on the matters which can save us from Hell Fire and shall not indulge with any irrelevant issue.
I want to ask the person who raised this issue, following;
1- Does she know the Faraiz of Ghusul ?
2- Does she know the Faraiz of Ablution(Wudu)?
3- Does she know the Arkan of Namaz?
4- Does she know the principles of Zakaat?
5- Does she know when to do Sajda-e-Sahuh in Namaz?
6- Does she know how to recite Quraan with its correct Tajweed?
7- Etc. etc. etc.
Above are the questions which we need to know first just like before doing PhD one need to do the Bachelors and Masters.
God knows better.
Sarah if you don't like it try changing it, ufffff how stubborn can one person be. You either like it or not, too bad.
You seem to not agree with anything Islam says nor the Quran. So let me ask you this what do you agree on?
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Originally posted by Bluebell:
Sarah if you don't like it try changing it, ufffff how stubborn can one person be. You either like it or not, too bad.
You seem to not agree with anything Islam says nor the Quran. So let me ask you this what do you agree on?
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Dear all,
Many aspects of Islam have no place in today's society. I know there will be many on this Forum that will throw a fit. Well! Too bad. If you are under some grand delusion that you can abuse others because your 'pristine revelations' says so and, it is okay, then you're mistaken.
The aspects of islam that needs to be addressed as archaic & out of touch can be broadly summarized under:
Women,
Non Muslims,
Slaves & Slavery,
Apostates & apostasy,
Penal codes like limb amputations for petty theft,
Stoning to Death for Adultery and Homosexuality, etc.
To borrow from bluebell's comments:
**Yes, those aspects of islam doesn't make sense and will have to be re-interpreted to reflect the changed times.
Note: I said "re-interpreted"; has nothing to do with Changing Quran, but it has everything to do with Changing the current practise & laws and above all people's mentality.**
.
I believe the post frm shaikha says it all.
I believe Sarah, Faceup and others like them are just creating fitna and are not concerned with Islam and its teachings. They are so influenced by the sunnah of the west that they want to change their religion.
Faceup has said that changes do not mean changing the Qur'an, it means changing the interpretations. In line with Usul al-Fiqh, I shall appreciate his telling us what he menas by that statement. or does he wish to change the Usul also. If so what will he be left with. This is exactly what happened to Christianity. People with absolutely no knowledge of religion came at the helm of affairs and now it is in a mess.
Insha Allah, Islam will not change as Allah Taala has guaranteed to safeguard it.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**I believe the post frm shaikha says it all.
I believe Sarah, Faceup and others like them are just creating fitna and are not concerned with Islam and its teachings. They are so influenced by the sunnah of the west that they want to change their religion.
Faceup has said that changes do not mean changing the Qur'an, it means changing the interpretations. In line with Usul al-Fiqh, I shall appreciate his telling us what he menas by that statement. or does he wish to change the Usul also. If so what will he be left with. This is exactly what happened to Christianity. People with absolutely no knowledge of religion came at the helm of affairs and now it is in a mess.
Insha Allah, Islam will not change as Allah Taala has guaranteed to safeguard it. **
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Dear all,
What I mean by Re-interpretation of Quran is this:
All muslims follow taqleeds or tariqas, meaning - their practise of Islam is based upon teachings of certain scholars, like for example, the Ahl as Sunnah wal Jamaat - the largest group of Islam(sunnis) follow Taqleed laid out by the FOUR Sunni Imams/scholars: Hanafi, Maleki, Shaefi, Hanbali. These Imams have based their Taqleeds or version of Islam based on hadeeths/sunnah of the prophet in the ways he dealt or practised certain tenets of Islam. (It is important to understand what I am saying here, so please read to understand or ask questions.)
RE-INTERPRETATION
When I use the term "Re-interpretation" I mean is to re-define or re-interpret the FOUR Sunni Taqleeds as outlined by the FOUR Imams, for example.
Instead of using repressive hadiths that became the basis of the Sunni faith or the Sunnah, scholars (men & women)should look at using progressive & moderate hadiths of the Prophet SWS to form the basis of the Practise of Islam.
The IMPACT to this would be that the Ahl as Sunnah was Jammah as it is currently known & practised would cease to EXIST.
In its place would EMERGE a new Taqleed of Islam based upon hadiths/Sunnah that Reflect the time & Place.
Here's a good example
1)We have hadith of the prophet that says:
"Heaven lies at the feet of the mother."
2)We also have this hadith that says:
"women will be the largest inhabitants of Hell."
What do you think the Islam of today is based upon?
It is clearly based upon the hadith #2.
RE-INTERPRETATION would mean using a taqleed/practise of Islam based upon hadith #1 and moving away from hadith #2.
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Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
There are many good things in Islam but a religion to be perfect (as a true religion should be) must be fair to all people. I don't think Islam is.
[/quote]
I had asked you a question for which you have prefered not to reply. I shall repeat again. Do you have a problem with what has been revealed in the Quran?**
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We need to change the way it looks at women and the other groups that faceup mentioned so that Islam can be a truer, more fair religion.**
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Can you and Faceup tell us the procedure you wish to propose and what will happen to the Qur'an 200 years from now. How many versions do you think thhere will be?
**
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For example, men are allowed to marry slave women and they have to give money to then when they marry them. You usually give money (pay) or barter or whatever when you buy products. Such is the status of women. Islam is filled with this kind of equality; women can't marry slave men like men can, men own women, women are to be covered up while men aren't. It's incredibly unfair.**
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This part of your post is so childish, ignorant and, hence, utterly ridiculous. I will not even venture to reply.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
** Dear all,
What I mean by Re-interpretation of Quran is this:
All muslims follow taqleeds or tariqas, meaning - their practise of Islam is based upon teachings of certain scholars, like for example, the Ahl as Sunnah wal Jamaat - the largest group of Islam(sunnis) follow Taqleed laid out by the FOUR Sunni Imams/scholars: Hanafi, Maleki, Shaefi, Hanbali. These Imams have based their Taqleeds or version of Islam based on hadeeths/sunnah of the prophet in the ways he dealt or practised certain tenets of Islam. (It is important to understand what I am saying here, so please read to understand or ask questions.)
RE-INTERPRETATION
When I use the term "Re-interpretation" I mean is to re-define or re-interpret the FOUR Sunni Taqleeds as outlined by the FOUR Imams, for example.
Instead of using repressive hadiths that became the basis of the Sunni faith or the Sunnah, scholars (men & women)should look at using progressive & moderate hadiths of the Prophet SWS to form the basis of the Practise of Islam.
The IMPACT to this would be that the Ahl as Sunnah was Jammah as it is currently known & practised would cease to EXIST.
In its place would EMERGE a new Taqleed of Islam based upon hadiths/Sunnah that Reflect the time & Place.
Here's a good example
1)We have hadith of the prophet that says:
"Heaven lies at the feet of the mother."
2)We also have this hadith that says:
"women will be the largest inhabitants of Hell."
What do you think the Islam of today is based upon?
It is clearly based upon the hadith #2.
RE-INTERPRETATION would mean using a taqleed/practise of Islam based upon hadith #1 and moving away from hadith #2.
**
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What is the source? Is it from a site, a hard copy you have or is it yours?
There are some glaring errors in the thinking and shall reply after I know the source.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Faceup.
You have avoided my specific question, so I shall repeat it. Discussion can only take place if it is according to a set procedure. If you avoid or detract, you are not serious or do not have evidence to back up your statements.
[quote]
Faceup has said that changes do not mean changing the Qur'an, it means changing the interpretations. In line with Usul al-Fiqh, I shall appreciate his telling us what he menas by that statement. or does he wish to change the Usul also.
[/quote]
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
.
FF,
Here's words of wisdom:
when you or anybody blindly DEFEND Islam even when there is no justification for it, you are not defending Quran, Prophet or Islam rather - you are defending the scholars whose version of Islam & sharia'h you follow; or - you are defending Sunni-ism and its scholars or its off-shoot sect of wahabi-ism and its set of scholars.
Originally posted by FF:
*What is the source? Is it from a site, a hard copy you have or is it yours?
There are some glaring errors in the thinking and shall reply after I know the source. *
This was in response to my comments re: RE-INTERPRETATION posted on top of page 3.
Then, he quickly fires off another post:
Originally posted by FF:
You have avoided my specific question, so I shall repeat it. Discussion can only take place if it is according to a set procedure. If you avoid or detract, you are not serious or do not have evidence to back up your statements.
This too was a reaction to my post stating that Re-interpretation does not mean Changing the quran; refer to my post on top of page 3.
Dear all,
What set of procedures was followed by the FOUR Sunni Imams/scholars when they proceeded to establish the FOUR Sunni sects?
The Four Imams knew they were setting up Taqleeds which means EMULATE or COPY but they needed their taqleeds to corroborate to the "ways of the prophet or his sunnah."
So, they appointed Imam Bukhari who goes about compiling hadiths that met the criteria of the taqleed or sects that were being put into place.
Scholar Bukhari selected only 1% from the huge numbers of hadiths that had popped up 250 years after the prophet's time. The Four sunni sects/fiqhs were codified based on the sunnah as compiled by scholar Imam Bukhari.
These 1% is the basis of today's Sunni Islam, its Fiqh & Sharia'h, the meanings of the Quran.
My discussion on top of the page 3 is one of the ways that Orthodox islam can be re-interpreted. Please refer to the discussion on top of page 3.
The other option is to have newer sects that has nothing to do with Sunni Islam - Emerge willing to establish saner, moderate practises of islam.
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Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
** The answer to your question: no, not directly and not everything, just what it says about women, homosexuals, and the like. It needs to be a more humane religion.**
[/quote]
Do you mean to say that there are some ayaat you want changed?
There need not be many versions of the Quran, we just need to have new interpretations of it, the Quran can remain unchanged. If you wanted one straight religion as you claim Islam is right now, then there would be no sects. I don't think we need to change what the Quran says but I definitely do feel a need for reevaulating how we adopt what Quran says and make that a part of our culture and society. We could start by giving women more freedom, making khul more accessible, allowing women to inherit not half of what men do but the same, forcing women to work like men do, giving everybody the same type of education regardless of their sexual orientation, make contraception easily available and EXPECT people to use it, stop making them wear hijab as is seen in some parts of Saudi Arabia, and the like. These are basic reforms and they will not result in rampant vulgarity (as you say the West has.) Greater freedom and complete equality will allow our countries to go a long way and the Quran will remain unchanged. But instead of it being a state device, I think it should be made a personal decision. You're a good Muslim, good, you're not, who cares kind of thing? We need more tolerance. Killing people because they are homosexual or because they committed adultery is barbaric.
That last part was true, though, wasn't it? I gave specific parts of the Quran from where I got that stuff from in a precvious thread.**
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You are proposing changes in ahkamat which have been ordained by no less than Allah Ta'ala. You propose to allow people to be homosexuals and commit adultry! You propose equal inheritance!
Lady, these are Divine revelations and cannot be abrogated or changed. You are barking up the wrong tree; this cannot be done. You either accept them or you don't, the choice is yours. You cannot accept some and reject some. You have to accept Qur'an and Sunnah in totality or you don't.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
when you or anybody blindly DEFEND Islam even when there is no justification for it, you are not defending Quran, Prophet or Islam rather - you are defending the scholars whose version of Islam & sharia'h you follow; or - you are defending Sunni-ism and its scholars or its off-shoot sect of wahabi-ism and its set of scholars.
[/quote]
That is your (mis)conception. When we defend the Qur'an, Prophet or Islam, we do not defend anything else. You are the one who are attacking Islam and its roots without any evidence. There is only one shariah. Your knowledge is so shallow that you do not even know the difference between shariah and fiqh.
**
[quote]
Originally posted by FF:
What is the source? Is it from a site, a hard copy you have or is it yours?
There are some glaring errors in the thinking and shall reply after I know the source.
This was in response to my comments re: RE-INTERPRETATION posted on top of page 3.
Then, he quickly fires off another post:
Originally posted by FF:
You have avoided my specific question, so I shall repeat it. Discussion can only take place if it is according to a set procedure. If you avoid or detract, you are not serious or do not have evidence to back up your statements.**
[/quote]
You have either not understood my question or are avoiding it. Please read again and then reply specifically.
**
[quote]
Dear all,
What set of procedures was followed by the FOUR Sunni Imams/scholars when they proceeded to establish the FOUR Sunni sects?
The Four Imams knew they were setting up Taqleeds which means EMULATE or COPY but they needed their taqleeds to corroborate to the "ways of the prophet or his sunnah."
So, they appointed Imam Bukhari who goes about compiling hadiths that met the criteria of the taqleed or sects that were being put into place.
Scholar Bukhari selected only 1% from the huge numbers of hadiths that had popped up 250 years after the prophet's time. The Four sunni sects/fiqhs were codified based on the sunnah as compiled by scholar Imam Bukhari.
These 1% is the basis of today's Sunni Islam, its Fiqh & Sharia'h, the meanings of the Quran.**
[/quote]
I have never seen more misdirected and uninformed writing in my life. Alhumdo Lillah. Before writing you must check the correctness of what you are writing. As an example, Imam Al-Shaf'ie died when Imam Bukhar was only 10 years old. I am sure if I dig further into the periods and locations I will prove the folly of your statements even further.
**
[quote]
The other option is to have newer sects that has nothing to do with Sunni Islam - Emerge willing to establish saner, moderate practises of islam.**
[/quote]
What? Create another sect? Most welcome. I am sure you do not know what Allah and His Prophet have stated about sects. Alhumdo Lillah, I have no support for sects. I am a Muslim and I follow the shariah.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
FF,
Everything I say is Disagreeable to you; so, let's agree to disagree.
To say Islam is against "sects" is like saying Islam stands for "Equality". They are both hypocritical statements.
I strongly encourage that you re-search how the 4 sunni sects were established and what they are based upon?
It is not by chance that they(sunni sects) are called followers of the Sunnah or Ahl as sunnah and, Imam Bukahri's life long calling was study of the sunnah and its science and, eventual compilation of the hadiths/sunnah.
FaceUp,
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To say Islam is against "sects" is like saying Islam stands for "Equality". They are both hypocritical statements.
[/quote]
Do you have something against Islaam becuase it doesn't support your desires and fancies?
[quote]
I strongly encourage that you re-search how the 4 sunni sects were established and what they are based upon?
[/quote]
Where is your proof that there are 4 suni sects?