.
.
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
*Do we - as muslims have the right to ask questions and seek answers that satisfies us?
Or,
Do we blindly believe & follow whatever is being fed to us - as suggested by FF? *
[/quote]
What is the purpose one comes to a religious forum? Some come to learn and some come to disrupt. The intention is well known to Allah.
The one who comes to learn asks relevant questions relating to the deen and its performance.
The other category has futoor in their hearts and will always ask irrelevant questions. Allah makes their hearts dark as He knows what the person wants.
I have made some statements in my previous posts, from which you have picked some and are trying to present them completely out of context. This is misquoting and you are responsible for the fitna this creates.
**
[quote]
What does the Quran and hadith says:
**[al-Anfal 8:22]The worst of creatures in the sight of God are those persons who are deaf and dumb and do not reflect.
or, Prophet’s hadiths:
The Prophet of Islam says: God has assigned two guides to man: one external to him, the messengers of God, and the other internal, his own power of thought. **
[/quote]
Yes, you tell us what you understand from these two texts.
**
[quote]
SS. Do you have any problem with the way Allah has revealed the Qur'an? **
[/quote]
Yes, I have written this to her for a reason. She has a chip on her shoulder and is always criticising the way Allah has dealt with the genders. Anyone who doubts my question to her can go into the archives and try to come up with one positive statement about the Qur'an and the deen. I have been on this forum for couple of months now. I have only seen negative remarks from her. I believe it is time for her to be cautioned as it is our obligation to forbid people from evil (nahy anil munkar).
*The rational muslims have issues **not with the Quran but with how the Quran has been interpreted into practise? Those interpretations are what we call Fiqhs with their respective Sharia’h.
We are encouraged to ask questions and seek answers. Please refer to the aya and the hadith quoted above.***
I do not understand the relevance of this part of your post to the preceding part.
I had criticised irrelevant questions. I had supported seeking knowledge through pertinent questions. In the portion before this you have questioned my criticism and now you suddenly switch over to totally different topic. As it is not relevant here I shall just ignore it. You may raise your concerns as a separate thread.
**
[quote]
"As a believer, you have to believe, and not get involved with trivialities. Your question is totally irrelevant as it does not make any difference."
Exactly the point I keep making but it just keeps coming back re-packaged in different ways. Just 'believe' is what you (FF)and the Islamic scholars keep saying. How does this reconcile with the above ayath or hadith. Frankly, it doesn’t!**
[/quote]
Again totally misquoted or misunderstod. What does my statement ask you to do? If Allah has chosen to address male gender and has sent only male prophets, tell me what is the relevance of asking the question? And, why am I wrong in calling it a triviality?
The rest of your post is out of emotion, so I shall not even venture to reply to it.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
SS
I hope I have already replied to your posts when I replied to FaceUp.
The reason I asked whethe you had a problem was that I think you are asking the questions in the wrong place. You should go and lodge your complaint to Allah for not having given women the position you think they deserve.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**SS
You should go and lodge your complaint to Allah for not having given women the position you think they deserve.
**
[/quote]
for those who can read and understand urdu....
Wo ye kehtay hain ke tu khushnood har ik zulm se hai.!
Wo ye kehtay hain ke har ik zulm tairay hukam se hai.!
Gar ye sach hai tu tairay adal se inkaar karoon???
Unn ki maanu yaa tairee zaat ka iqraar karoon.???
how come r u so sure that God has granted the place to women what u think he has granted..???
Truth and Innocence are the first casualties of War..!!
The other category has futoor in their hearts and will always ask irrelevant questions. Allah makes their hearts dark as He knows what the person wants.
I have made some statements in my previous posts, from which you have picked some and are trying to present them completely out of context. This is misquoting and you are responsible for the fitna this creates.
This irreligious religious imperialism must go nowwwww....must go now..!!!!!!!!
Truth and Innocence are the first casualties of War..!!
.
[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
**and the Quran, if not changed, should be at least interpreted in other ways and there should be equality.
**
[/quote]
So you want to change the Quran?
Here is something interesting in the Quran:
AAL-E-IMRAN.036-37 When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and God knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected." Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From God: for God Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."
There, I should go on strike because the Quran states that the female is smarter then me (male).
The reason why Allah (swt) have not directly ordered women in many verses is because out of respect and modesty. In fact, in the entire Quran there are only 1 (or 2) women mentioned by their names, while in other verses HE (swt) said “the wives of”, “daughters of” or “tell your females to..” etc.…and He (swt) mentioned those names to clarify specific things i.e Mariam (RA), because of the importance relating to her son’s Isa (AS) birth:
033.AL-AHZAAB.007-8 And remember We took from the prophets their covenant: As (We did) from thee: from Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary: We took from them a solemn covenant: That (God) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with): And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.
It is because Allah (swt) considered the Ghira (Ghayraat) of his Ummah, and respected their self-respect and honor, so instead of ordering the Ummah’s mothers and sisters directly, He order the Ummah’s to guide their women.
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 149:
Narrated Asma':
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "There is nothing (none) having a greater sense of Ghira (self-respect) than Allah." And narrated Abu Huraira that he heard the Prophet (saying the same).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 150:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet; said, "Allah has a sense of Ghira, and Allah's sense of Ghira is provoked when a believer does something which Allah has prohibited."
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 154:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were sitting with Allah's Apostle, (he) Allah's Apostle said, "While I was sleeping, I saw a woman performing ablution beside a palace. I asked, "Whose palace is this?' It was said, 'This palace belongs to 'Umar.' Then I remembered his sense of Ghira and returned." On that 'Umar started weeping in that gathering and said, "O Allah's Apostle! How dare I think of my self-respect being offended by you?"
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 153:
Narrated Jabir:
The Prophet, said, "I entered Paradise and saw a palace and asked whose palace is this? They (the Angels) said, "This palace belongs to 'Umar bin Al-Khattab.' I intended to enter it, and nothing stopped me except my knowledge about your sense of Ghira (self-respect (O Umar)." 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! Let my father and mother be sacrificed for you! O Allah's Prophet! How dare I think of my Ghira (self-respect) being offended by you?"
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 151:
Narrated Asma' bint Abu Bakr:
When Az-Zubair married me, he had no real property or any slave or anything else except a camel which drew water from the well, and his horse. I used to feed his horse with fodder and drew water and sew the bucket for drawing it, and prepare the dough, but I did not know how to bake bread. So our Ansari neighbors used to bake bread for me, and they were honorable ladies. I used to carry the date stones on my head from Zubair's land given to him by Allah's Apostle and this land was two third Farsakh (about two miles) from my house. One day, while I was coming with the date stones on my head, I met Allah's Apostle along with some Ansari people. He called me and then, (directing his camel to kneel down) said, "Ikh! Ikh!" so as to make me ride behind him (on his camel). I felt shy to travel with the men and remembered Az-Zubair and his sense of Ghira, as he was one of those people who had the greatest sense of Ghira. Allah's Apostle noticed that I felt shy, so he proceeded. I came to Az-Zubair and said, "I met Allah's Apostle while I was carrying a load of date stones on my head, and he had some companions with him. He made his camel kneel down so that I might ride, but I felt shy in his presence and remembered your sense of Ghira (See the glossary). On that Az-Zubair said, "By Allah, your carrying the date stones (and you being seen by the Prophet in such a state) is more shameful to me than your riding with him." (I continued serving in this way) till Abu Bakr sent me a servant to look after the horse, whereupon I felt as if he had set me free.
Sad isn’t it? These days there is no ghayraat, only baygharty. These days your friends will call your sisters, mothers and wives by their first name front of you.
There is no single word to describe Ghira i.e Ghayraat in English. You must combine prestige, honor, pride, jealousy, modesty, chastity, self-respect etc.. just to come close to its original meaning.
This is why HE (swt) directed us in many verses just like HE (swt) ordered His Messenger (PBUH) to remind our women of the guidance from Allah (swt).
Anyways, to make it short and nice. If you truly want to know and learn, then I suggest you visit your local mosques or question some online Alim. Because on this forum there is no Mulana ji. Other then that, all you people should stop wasting your time on such crap and arrogance.
Something for the feminazies:
AL-MAEDA.101-102 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
[This message has been edited by ~Mickey~ (edited December 31, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Vanity:
** how come r u so sure that God has granted the place to women what u think he has granted..???
**
[/quote]
You are the one who raised the question, remember? You tell us what place Allah has given to women according to your understanding.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
.
[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
As for going to Allah and asking why She addressed the Quran to males and all, YOU know that that is impossible.
[/quote]
Precisely. If something is a matter of fact, and cannot be changed, discussion on it is a waste of time. I read an interesting quote once which I believe I must write to you now, hoping some sense will prevail.
[quote]
God grant me the courage to change the things I can,[br]The serenity to accept the things I cannot,[br]And, the wisdom to know the difference.
[/quote]
**
[quote]
Islam has good in it too but there are some things in it that are too archaic for a modern society, thus lending less credibility to Islam and its teachings. I am not the only one who has problems with my religion, millions others find stuff wrong in it. Surely so many cannot be all wrong?**
[/quote]
Precisely. This is what I was trying to get at when I asked you whether you had a problem with the way Allah revealed the Qur'an. Lady, there is nothing wrong with the Qur'an and Islam. It is the people who are impressed by the sunnah of the west who want change. Only Allah can guide you. I and thers like me can only pray for you and the likes of you.
**
[quote]
I want proof that the fact that the Quran is misogynyst is a triviality. How is it a triviality?**
[/quote]
The Qur'an is as is. You do not agree with it, up to you. I believe I have done my job. From day one I have tried to find what your problem is. I think I have found it now. Maassalama.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Then pray for me FactFinder.
[quote]
Originally posted by Vanity:
The other category has ***futoor* in their hearts and will always ask irrelevant questions. Allah makes their hearts dark as He knows what the person wants.
I have made some statements in my previous posts, from which you have picked some and are trying to present them completely out of context. This is misquoting and you are responsible for the fitna this creates.
This irreligious religious imperialism must go nowwwww....must go now..!!!!!!!!
**
[/quote]
What do you find irreligious religious imperialism? Opposing futoor and spreading of fitna? Sorry, as long as I am capable, I shall continue. People who propagate following the sunnah of the west have to be opposed. Our Qur'an and Sunnah are perfect. Anybody questioning that is to be opposed with all might. This is our obligation.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
Then pray for me FactFinder.
[/quote]
I always pray for all Muslims and ask Allah to keep them on sirat al mustaqeem. Hope you are within that net!
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Today science claims (actually its done) that it can produce a child (clone) without a mother’s egg but can’t without the male’s sperm. That it can create an egg from a so-called blank cell but can’t create a sperm that carries the genetics of life (the DNA).
So now, nature has played tricks on you?
You are not smart but naive by asking and questioning His (swt) authorities.
The lion sits in his cave and the lionesses go out hunting for him and his offspring doesn’t meant that they were thought by some 16th century oppressive mulvee. It’s the way they are created. It’s the way nature has created them. It’s the way Allah (swt) created the nature.
If God is that forgiving, then I am going to keep on asking until I can see Islam in a good light.
Of course God is that forgiving and even more. But if you are waiting for that “good light” which will allowed you to wear black lipsticks, black eye makeup and let some rock star piss all over you because he says screw religion and its god, then I’m sorry, you will never see it in that “light”. I hope not.
If you say that Islam is not the religion for you then you can’t claim to be a Muslim as you have claimed before. So far every answer that has been put forward to you is wrong and….whats that word.??…..oh misogynyst.
It’s really sweet when you see questioners contradict with their own beliefs. I am not scholar, but so far its seems like that you act like you know the real deal. Enlighten me please. I promise you that I wouldn’t “***ing” trash it. Nor will I label it as arrogant “s*t”.
A car can not dream of flying, when it made to be driven. Now that is being practical, logical and politically correct.
I don’t deny that this is a male dominated world and I don’t deny that women are not given the rights, even the rights that Islam has granted them. Though that doesn’t give anyone the right to trash God or his Message or Messengers.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
** What do you find irreligious religious imperialism? Opposing futoor and spreading of fitna? Sorry, as long as I am capable, I shall continue. People who propagate following the sunnah of the west have to be opposed. Our Qur'an and Sunnah are perfect. Anybody questioning that is to be opposed with all might. This is our obligation. **
[/quote]
FF...i hope u can understand a bit of urdu, if not i will include an english translation too...
Wo ye kehtay hain ke tu khushnood har ik zulm se hai.!
wo ye kehtay hain ke har ik zulm tairay hukam se hai.!
Gar ye sach hai tu tairay adal se inkaar karoon????
Unn ki maanu ya tairee zaat ka iqrar karoon???
"They say YOU (god) are happy at whatever injustice is going on.
They say every injustice is according to your Injunctions.
If so, should i disbliefe your justice??
should i believe them or believ YOU???
Mr. Honourable F.F....this practice of spalashing and flipping out fatwas of fitna and etc is a primitive practice.....and islam and quran has been a joystick in the hands of people who interpret it with such a conculsiveness as if they have learnt this interpretation from Allah directly....thats why they are always eager and prompt in splashing fatwas..!!!
So far as the issue of place of women in quran and islam is concerned.....its obvious as day light that islam and quran are used as a tool to satisfy the centuries old male ego and male schauvinism...!!!!!
Truth and Innocence are the first casualties of War..!!
Dear
I have been a way for quite some time and have returned to find issues being discussed on this Forum that have been dealt with numerous times.
Unfortunately, for those whose only source of knowledge concerning Islam and Women is the western media, will inevitably believe that Islam is ' oppressive' to women. The Hijab(veil) being the symbol of that oppression. Why?
Yet in the US, Western Europe, Japan and Australia it is the women who have been turning to Islam in record numbers and adopting the Islamic code of dress.
However, of late, we are now seeing Muslim women envying their western counter parts for having a so called 'free and easy life'. Yet little do they realise that the poor and unfortunate western woman is suffering a nightmare. Outwardly, non muslim women are seen to be given equal rights in education, work and so forth, but in reality this is a farce.
These so called equal rights mean that a woman is expected to have a boyfriend or she is considered weird, and to lose her virginity before she is married. Under the banner of 'freedom' western women are told they have complete independance to do as they wish. What a charade!
It is the media and multi million dollar film/advertising industries which establish the status quo that women are programmed to accept. Consequently, these institutions fashion and nurture the ideas of the common people, their principles, morals and conduct. This is where the fallacy of the freedom lies.
In the west, the woman is no more than a man's object of desire only to be harassed and and reduced to a source of temporary joy and pleasure, as well as her sexuality being exploited. How?
Nearly every ad advertisement has to have a naked woman in order to sell its product. The lewd onslaught that humanity has been subject to has provided an environment where the honour and respect of women is constantly under threat. The western woman is nothing but a commodity, who is staggering around in a apathetic stupor because she cannot envisage an alternative.
I can go on and on with statistics, but will wait for a 'freedom fighter' to respond in the first instance.
As far as the Hijab is concerned, the greatest symbol of oppression and servitude in the West, it is not an Islamic invention!!!!
In fact it is part of the Judeo-Christian tradition!
....If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off, and if it is, it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off, she should cover her head...... For man did not come from woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
(1 Corinthians 1:3-6)
So when a Muslim woman wears the Hijab, she is judged on her individuality and not her sexuality, as is the case with her western conterpart.
If any female or male has a problem with Islam and it's codes, then by all means practice your Freedom of Movement and revert back to the period of Jahilliyah. I'm sure you will get all the rights you want!!!
[quote]
Originally posted by Sarah Splendor:
Then pray for me FactFinder.
[/quote]
Sarah Sahiba: Ab aap ko dua kee nahee, dawa kee zaroorat hay (you need medicine not prayers).
And why did you ask a man to pray for you? And why would Allah accept prayers for a woman?
[quote]
Originally posted by Vanity:
** Mr. Honourable F.F....this practice of spalashing and flipping out fatwas of fitna and etc is a primitive practice.....and islam and quran has been a joystick in the hands of people who interpret it with such a conculsiveness as if they have learnt this interpretation from Allah directly....thats why they are always eager and prompt in splashing fatwas..!!!
So far as the issue of place of women in quran and islam is concerned.....its obvious as day light that islam and quran are used as a tool to satisfy the centuries old male ego and male schauvinism...!!!!!**
[/quote]
I asked you a specific straightforward question. Can you be specific or are you just going to ramble on and on about things that many others like you have written from a frustrated position of ignorance. Islam is very clear in its position fro women and has given them rights that the west denied until the 19th/20th century.
If some people have been chauvinistic (correct spelling for your guidance when you use it next time) they are to blame. Alhumdo Lillah, I am even very alert even when someone else does not respect women. The record of this forum is sufficient evidence. Are you prepred to accept a challenge to prove you wrong?
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.