Which school of thought / sect do you follow. I hope you are not going to make any claims of your own just like Mirza Ghulam Ahmed came up with something new from his "own" mind and tried to prove the rest of humanity wrong only through his "OWN" mental capabilities and understanding of Quran.
I am pretty sure he is going to say Quran and Sunnah....everyone says that....even I...I know some would disagree...but it doesnt make any difference to me
They maybe enough for kuffaar to cling to an heretical beliefe, but they are not enough for people of Sunnah. We understand these ayaat how our Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) and his companions explained. Stop attacking me with a straw man - forcing words down my throat. Where did I imply Allah must have a physical form? I neither negated nor affirmed; however, it is true that Allah has a form which befits His majesty and evidence for this is the ahadith of Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam). Now, bring a single ayah or hadith which says that Allah Ta’ala doesn’t have a physical form!
with all due respect sister hareem, let’s stop this hide and seek. So for me to use a counter argument to refute your jahmi heretical aqeedah is rude and ‘blasphemy’, but you to believe that Allah is inside of creation is not rude and blasphemous. Blame yourself and your aqeedah for making us use such an argument. Distorting the Qur’an and actual meaning to promote and support your heretical beliefs is not rude and blasphemy!? Who are you trying to deceive?
Secondly, the people of Sunnah follow the footsteps of their predecessors and we don’t engage in discussions to win debates (like we care about that), rather we engage to learn and defend Islam - a notion alien to you people.
Every time you respond to my posts, it is always somehow related to defending modernists, now qadyanis, and before your own jahmi and sufi beliefs. This surely put a question on your sincerity and try to reflect on your own intentions before pointing fingers at others people’s intentions and whether they want to “win” debate.
Every time you respond to my posts, it is always somehow related to defending modernists, now qadyanis, and before your own jahmi and sufi beliefs. This surely put a question on your sincerity and try to reflect on your own intentions before pointing fingers at others people's intentions and whether they want to "win" debate.
No No No
Trust me she never does that....
Which school of thought / sect do you follow. I hope you are not going to make any claims of your own just like Mirza Ghulam Ahmed came up with something new from his "own" mind and tried to prove the rest of humanity wrong only through his "OWN" mental capabilities and understanding of Quran.
Not any "school of thought", I'm not a sheeple who needs to follow someone.
But why did you skip the rest of the things which I mentioned from Quran, like the stick of Musa (a.s) becoming snake, fire not hurting Abraheem (a.s), Man-wa-Salwah ...etc.
Ok, thanks for the correction. Prophet Yunus (a.s) lived inside a Whale, now prove it through science how is it possible. You didn't make any scientific sense by correcting my question.
It is alright, if you are still not able to prove then you may again escape with similar answers, just like when you replied "Here on GupShup." in reply to my Question "Where is iblees"
Good Luck
OMG because all the other things you mentioned were miracles which are not explainable by human beings. haha
I don't believe in miracles. All things which happen are according to the law's of Nature which Allah all mighty has made. Allah doesn't change his laws just for certain human beings, not even If it's a prophet.
"Abraheem" (It's either Abraham or Ibrahim BTW) being not hurt by fire is incridible. Is it a "miracle"? Certainly not.
The first three chambers of a whales stomach have the size of a living room and don't contain any acids. A human being can survive three days without water and God knows how many days without food. You do the math...
:)
A stewerdess survived a fall from 10 Km in 1972. Miracle? Was she something special? More than a human being?
If you can, try also proving existence of "Soul" through science. Have you seen Allah (swt) ? Try proving through science the existence of Allah (swt)
You can't prove something which is not physical with science.
Said that, soul isn't even a scientific concept, so why would I try to prove it with science?
To prove the existence of Allah Allmighty I don't need science either. All i need is to show you the perfectly engineered world around us.
Hopelessly corrupted logic*.*
The teacher will eventually go back to teaching, so he/she is still a teacher who is going to teach. Not a teacher who does not teach.
But the alcoholic will still drink alcohol after he get's up or after he has some money. He's still going to drink. He's still an alcoholic unless he stops drinking for good. But then he won't be an alcoholic anymore. Once again, false logic.
If the insane man is cured he won't be insane anymore. LOL You have to do better than that...I know you can.
Peace 라시드
I've already explained that your analogies are not appropriate for the case below: The more appropriate case is that of retired doctors and retired generals.
You're talking about Rasool (messenger) and Nabi (Prophet).
So Jesus still holds the **title **of a Prophet in Heaven. He is a Nabi, agree?
It is a very simple question, but you people are trying to deviate the attention from the question.
Jesus right now alive in the heaven, do you consider him to be a Prophet? Is he a Nabi. Yes or No?
If he has the title of a Nabi, he IS STILL a Nabi, no?
But that's because the title is added to their names for good. If Dr. sahib dies it will be late Dr. X . And after te General dies he will be late General Y. When people will talk about them, they will say Mr. X was a Dr. And Mr. Y was a General. And not Mr. X IS a Dr. And Mr. Y IS a General. Get the point?
Yes Jesus (AS) is a Nabi. I can see this is merely a semantics argument so I will be clearer.
1) Jesus (AS) was not the last messenger to be appointed prophethood
2) Jesus (AS) is a prophet
3) All prophets (who have died) are prophets even now, they do not lose their title of prophethood because they have died. We don't say he was a prophet implying that he no longer is, rather we say he was (doing the duties of) a prophet.
4) Since we believe Jesus (AS) is alive we believe that he will be last prophet to die.
5) He will not be awarded a new prophethood i.e. the duties of being a prophet on his second coming but he will retain his prophetship which is his title.
Jesus (AS) is a prophet in his 'prophetship' but he is not a prophet in his prophethood, his (AS) prophethood ended when he was taken up.
Although he will be called Isa (AS) he will not be giving wahi, rulings, etc ... this is hence one of the reasons why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is rejected by the mainstream Muslims.
Peace 라시드
I've already explained that your analogies are not appropriate for the case below: The more appropriate case is that of retired doctors and retired generals.
Yes Jesus (AS) is a Nabi. I can see this is merely a semantics argument so I will be clearer.
1) Jesus (AS) was not the last messenger to be appointed prophethood 2) Jesus (AS) is a prophet 3) All prophets (who have died) are prophets even now, they do not lose their title of prophethood because they have died. We don't say he was a prophet implying that he no longer is, rather we say he was (doing the duties of) a prophet. 4) Since we believe Jesus (AS) is alive we believe that he will be last prophet to die. 5) He will not be awarded a new prophethood i.e. the duties of being a prophet on his second coming but he will retain his prophetship which is his title.
Jesus (AS) is a prophet in his 'prophetship' but he is not a prophet in his prophethood, his (AS) prophethood ended when he was taken up.
Although he will be called Isa (AS) he will not be giving wahi, rulings, etc ... this is hence one of the reasons why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is rejected by the mainstream Muslims.
All Prophets did not lose their title, but Jesus lost his prophethood because he was taken up alive? :( Poor Jesus (PBUH)
But after he has died, he will be a Prophet again?
This is getting redicilous...sorry.
Edit: If he's the last Prophet to die, he'd obviously be the what?
The last Prophet.
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
Why Is there a discussion on this since Allah wont even Ask us about this, if Eisa AS is a Prophet or Not, etc. Get a move on will ya ppl. So sad to even be a child and discuss this, discuss something which is more important, like how many of us read namaz or something and what is the importance of namaz etc.
Psyh. I agree totally 100% to ur answers. and so that is what i also beleive. Thanx Psyh,
5) He will not be awarded a new prophethood i.e. the duties of being a prophet on his second coming but he will retain his prophetship which is his title.
How do you actually come to such conclusion....Is this what you read in some book, are there any Hadith or Quranic verses to support such claim....When I say claim I mean prophethood and prophetship comparision...
(BTW - this is a personal question you dont have to bring in Ahmadi discussion this)
Also Quran calls Esa (A.S) as Prophet of Bani Israel. Upon his return from heavens what will happen to his this title?
Why there is a requirement for Esa (A.S) to come when he is only be a Reformer (or in some cases a Fighter)?
Why cant we have a Prophet/Messiah/Reformer/Messenger from Ummate Mohammadi (SAW)?
How do you guys come on conclusion that there will be no Wahi?
What will be status of Bible upon return of Esa (A.S). Was he not a Prophet of Bani Israel as Quran and Bible say? (Perhaps Bible has been a little edited for this)
Why do we insist of bringing Esa (A.S)? Is it just to prove Khatme Nabuwwat? Have you ever considered all meaning of word KHATAM?
I understand this is not the forum for such discussion. However a quick and precise answer would do! This is only for learning purpose and I will not use your comments for mocking anyone.
Indeed Indeed…nothing could be better then praying. However Allah has asked you to fulfil your duties in every aspect of life. Rasoolullah (SAW) emphasized in learning so much that in one Hadith it is narrated that Holy Prophet SAW said Go and learn even if you have to go China.
In those days reaching China was long and hard journey however considering the emphasis of our Holy Prophet SAW we should do exactly as he wished to go and learn. (about faith, about life, about science)
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
Peace everyone, if this is a discussion purely in the realm of Islamic tradition (hence based on belief), then my input is not worthwhile since it's ALL there in black and white.
If however people really want to explore who (or what) Jesus may be, perhaps it can be explored further.
My understanding is that the Quranic 'Isa and the Latin Jesus (or Syriac Yeshu') may not be the same person. (i.e. 'Isa is from an earlier time from the Hijaz region - which may be the missing link in determining the Semitic spelling of the Latinized word "Essenoi")
with all due respect sister hareem, let's stop this hide and seek. So for me to use a counter argument to refute your jahmi heretical aqeedah is rude and 'blasphemy', but you to believe that Allah is inside of creation is not rude and blasphemous. Blame yourself and your aqeedah for making us use such an argument. Distorting the Qur'an and actual meaning to promote and support your heretical beliefs is not rude and blasphemy!? Who are you trying to deceive?
Secondly, the people of Sunnah follow the footsteps of their predecessors and we don't engage in discussions to win debates (like we care about that), rather we engage to learn and defend Islam - a notion alien to you people.
Every time you respond to my posts, it is always somehow related to defending modernists, now qadyanis, and before your own jahmi and sufi beliefs. This surely put a question on your sincerity and try to reflect on your own intentions before pointing fingers at others people's intentions and whether they want to "win" debate.
The way you are trying to describe my way is not correct but i won't defend my Aqeedah here but also i woouldn't like you to use God's name with a dirty place, hope you got this my respectful brother.
The people of Sunnah are not so arrogant and proud that they like telling others "we don't care about anything because we are the chosen ones" and i know this for sure.
No No No
Trust me she never does that....
Probably its true but I don't hate Ahmadis, seriously.
Followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed like to talk about sense, e.g. about dajjal, that he can not be physical, the prophets journey of mairaaj was not physical...etc. as it doesn't make sense
Lets talk about real sense and science. Tell me, what about the birth of Isa (a.s) without father ? Abraheem (a.s) falling in a fire that doesn't burn him ? Yunus (a.s) "living" inside a fish ?, knife not cutting the thraot of Isamil (a.s) ? The stick of Musa (a.s) becoming snake, and the same stick parting a sea to make way for him? His hand glowing in front of pharoah? Man-wa-salwah? Isa (a.s) bringing back dead to life ? Suleiman (a.s) controlling winds and talking to animals and birds ?......etc.
Iblees ? where is he ? I can't see him. It doesn't makes sense that he exisits. Angels ? where is he ? doesn't make sense that they exist, where are they ? Show me !
^ All this mentioned in Quran. Which one of the above makes sense to your logical scientific mind ?
Subhan Allah...
I love you
RC
Peace 라시드
First of all I would like to congradulate brother Iconoclast in his replies to you. He has been giving you concise and accurate answers.
A teacher who does not teach ... yes that is possible ... when teachers go on teachers training they are learning like students, in that instance they are not teaching.
An alcoholic who does not drink ... yes that is possible ... when an alcoholic is attending his AA sessions or when he sleeps or when his money runs out he is not drinking.
An insane sane man ... yes even this is possible ... insanity is curable or at least show temporary lapses of normality and then they can flip back to insanity.
But this is not the answer to your question about how a prophet can be a prophet and still not be undertaking prophetic duties.
This is simple because 'prophet' carries with it two distinctions these are:
1) The Title 2) The Role
The role of prophethood is complete and sealed off. The title of prophetship exists in all of the prophets of Allah (SWT). If any of them return they will still be given the respect and rank of prophets. In this respect not only Isa (AS) but Adam (AS), Nuh (AS), all the way to Muhammad (SAW) are all prophets. No one says they were prophets.
The way to think of it in your world of analogies is like a retirement. A retired doctor or General are still called Dr saab or General saab. I hope this clarifies our position and brings us closer in understanding.
As much as I hated your JAZBATI action of deleting my posts, I love you for putting this in such a way that even a monkey can understand...
RC
good job for raping and distorting the text. let's agree with your jahmi belief, so does it mean Allah is also there when you're sleeping? Why don't you give Him a big hug before going to sleep? So Allah is also in your toilet? Do you have Islamic text which says that Allah doesn't have a physical shape?
Eeeasy brother
'Raping', 'Toilet' .... using in the same sentence with Allah....don't you think lil' inappropriate ?
I think even SALAFIS would think twice...
RC
They maybe enough for kuffaar to cling to an heretical beliefe, but they are not enough for people of Sunnah. We understand these ayaat how our Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) and his companions explained. Stop attacking me with a straw man - forcing words down my throat. Where did I imply Allah must have a physical form? I neither negated nor affirmed; however, it is true that Allah has a form which befits His majesty and evidence for this is the ahadith of Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam). Now, bring a single ayah or hadith which says that Allah Ta'ala doesn't have a physical form!
You haven't quoted any references from the Quran or Hadith in support of your argument. According to my belief, Allah does not take a physical form in the way we understand a physical object. You demanded "does it mean Allah is also there when you're sleeping? Why don't you give Him a big hug before going to sleep?" I don't share your belief of Allah posessing a physical form that you can hug. Allah is "Nurus samawaate wal Ardh". He's all knowing, all powerful, ever-present, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. There isn't a place where you can hide from Him. There isn't a place that's bereft of his presence. He is everywhere.
Also see the following verses, some of which you accused Mr. Popat of "raping", but you haven't said what you think these verses mean. Here are Yusuf Ali's and Shakir's translation:
"And He is with you wheresoever ye may be." (57:4)
"There is not a secret consultation between three, but He makes the fourth among them, - Nor between five but He makes the sixth,- nor between fewer nor more, but He is in their midst, wheresoever they be" (58:7)
"And Allah encompasses all things." (4:126)
How do you actually come to such conclusion....Is this what you read in some book, are there any Hadith or Quranic verses to support such claim....When I say claim I mean prophethood and prophetship comparision...
(BTW - this is a personal question you dont have to bring in Ahmadi discussion this)
Also Quran calls Esa (A.S) as Prophet of Bani Israel. Upon his return from heavens what will happen to his this title?
Why there is a requirement for Esa (A.S) to come when he is only be a Reformer (or in some cases a Fighter)?
Why cant we have a Prophet/Messiah/Reformer/Messenger from Ummate Mohammadi (SAW)?
How do you guys come on conclusion that there will be no Wahi?
What will be status of Bible upon return of Esa (A.S). Was he not a Prophet of Bani Israel as Quran and Bible say? (Perhaps Bible has been a little edited for this)
Why do we insist of bringing Esa (A.S)? Is it just to prove Khatme Nabuwwat? Have you ever considered all meaning of word KHATAM?
I understand this is not the forum for such discussion. However a quick and precise answer would do! This is only for learning purpose and I will not use your comments for mocking anyone.
Peace d-tox..ed
The response I gave was based on rationale because the question was demanding a rational explanation to the apparent difference of Isa (AS) coming as an Ummati yet still being a prophet.
I have provided the rationale behind the two statements and how they exist with one another. Providing a hadith would have to mean that someone at the time of Muhammad (SAW) raised the same query, which is highly unlikely. However, there are plenty of hadith that talk of the finality of prophethood and there are some on the coming of Isa (AS). Once a prophet always a prophet. Of course but just as there was a Jewish priesthood from which prophets came they still adhered to the law then in a similar way Isa (AS) will adhere to the law set into motion by Muhammad (SAW). This you must agree with because you claim to follow the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifah not abrogated by who you believe to be Isa (AS). It is totally cogent and contingent that Isa (AS) will return as an Ummati, but it is not to say that he will not be miraculous. According to hadith he will still have many miracles. He will also be the only one who can slay the Dajjal, and only prophets can do this.
So now having agreed that Isa(AS) is still a prophet and will return as a prophet your next question will be:
"then how can we claim the end of prophethood if he is going to be a prophet on his return?"
The answer to this is again semantics. The thing is he (AS) is not a new prophet and will be a returning prophet with a different set of missions one of which is to destroy Dajjal, another is to demonstrate the clear obedience to Islam and unite the Muslims and humanity in general. None of these objectives make him a new prophet, however, to be born after the prophet Muhammad (SAW) and to receive wahi and to make claim to prophethood where previously that claim was not made does infer a new prophetic claim and that is why we do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saab as Isa (AS).
All Prophets did not lose their title, but Jesus lost his prophethood because he was taken up alive? :( Poor Jesus (PBUH)
But after he has died, he will be a Prophet again?
This is getting redicilous...sorry.
Edit: If he's the last Prophet to die, he'd obviously be the what?
The last Prophet.
Prophethood not Prophetship
Prophethood not Prophetship
Is "Prophetship" even an actual word?
Please enlight us about the difference between "Prophethood" and "Prophetship".
I cannot belive how some groups twist and misitrepretate clearly worded and straightforward hadiths.
When the prophet (pbuh) has talked in not one but in many sahi.hadiths about DAJAAL being A PHYSICAL MAN with 3 eyes, and other HUMANLY Charecteristics, **
**..
further to this...he has even compared dajaal to other men, living in his time....i.e the black magician IBN SAYAAD.
Then how is it not clear he means dajaal to be a Physical MAN.
When the Prophet (pbuh) has clearly emphazied him humanly charectristics, how foolish is it to assume that Dajaal is Amercica.
There are also likewise so many clear sahih hadiths, that support each other conveying how the scenario of jesuses (pbuh) second coming will be and how he will and how h.mahdi will be a separate men, h.mehndi to whom jesus will read prauer behind.
after promply which a war will foloow.
I like to ask How Many Wars. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed has lead and succeded in?
Or where they also some sort unphyscial/mystical wars that bypassed the rest of the ummah.
Isnt H.Mehndi meant to unite the muslims...But the ahmdaies Mirza saab has already been long dead, and there are still 72 sects of disagreeing and disunited muslims all over the world.
Apologies for perverting the thread slighlty.
dis thread just needed another reality.check.
Bye
I cannot belive how some groups twist and misitrepretate clearly worded and straightforward hadiths.
When the prophet (pbuh) has talked in not one but in many sahi.hadiths about DAJAAL being A PHYSICAL MAN with 3 eyes, and other HUMANLY Charecteristics, ** **.. further to this...he has even compared dajaal to other men, living in his time....i.e the black magician IBN SAYAAD.
Then how is it not clear he means dajaal to be a Physical MAN.
Writing your comment in bold letters will not give it more credibility. And as far as I remember, wouldn't Dajjal have ONE eye?
LOL Please post the hadith where it's written that Dajjal will be a human being, ONE human being to be exact.
Oh and BTW Two eyes would be Human characteristics. Three eyes? I don't think so. How often do you see people with three eyes? To be honest I've never seen one in my life. I'm sorry if I'm being too anal about this, but I had to clear this up.
When the Prophet (pbuh) has clearly emphazied him humanly charectristics, how foolish is it to assume that Dajaal is Amercica.
Who says Dajjal is America?