As much as I hated your JAZBATI action of deleting my posts, I love you for putting this in such a way that even a monkey can understand...
RC
and Reality Check the monkey understood.
yikes
Well since I don't want to go too off topic in the "** What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis? " **thread. I though I should just start a new one.
So the question I asked the member "RealityCheck" in that thread was "At this very moment, right now, do you believe in Jesus (PBUH) as a Prophet?"
He didn't answer my question clearly. All he said was "Having said that, I can't be a Muslim if I don't believe in HAZRAT ISA (AS) as a Prophet of Allah. I do believe HAZRAT ISA (AS) was Allah's prophet and was raised by Allah to heavens and will INSHA-ALLAH come back to life from heavens as an UMMATI of Prophet Mohammad (SA,PBUH)."
My question isn't If Jesus WAS a Prophet, but if he** IS** a Prophet, right now, at this very moment. Since so called "Mainstream" Muslims believe that he's still ALIVE in Heaven. He must be a Prophet, no? When you talk about someone who is alive, you'd say "He IS alive" and not "He WAS alive". The letter case would apply to someone who is dead and not alive.
Edit:
Another reason for me to start this thread was RealityCheck saying that he won't answer any questions about Jesus, because that thread wasn't about him, but Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. But since I'm not an Ahmadi, and don't hold too much knowledge on Ghulam Ahmad Sahib either. I just gave it a go with an entire new thread.
So Mr. RealityCheck or any other member on this board who'd like to participate in this thread. What do you believe in? IS Jesus a Prophet? A straight forward question which needs a straight forward answer.
Thanks. :)
I dunt see a reason to disagree, i think Esa a.s is a Prophet.
sooo the point of opening this thread was not actually to get an answer to the question but to start nonsense about whether ahmadis are kafir or not who hate them who doesnt
Pathetic is wht the thread opener is !!
sooo the point of opening this thread was not actually to get an answer to the question but to start nonsense about whether ahmadis are kafir or not who hate them who doesnt
Pathetic is wht the thread opener is !!
Can't answer the question, but want to take part in the discussion huh? How cute. :)
Is "Prophetship" even an actual word?
Please enlight us about the difference between "Prophethood" and "Prophetship".
Peace 라시드
You are right it is not an actual word. I have coined it for the sake of this discussion. The concept exists but the word behind the concept is blurred in the English term 'prophethood' ... One is a prophet, therefore he received prophethood. Is prophethood a continous thing or does it occur like a process and which term is used to apply to the different conditions of prophethood.
Yes, I have created the word prophetship denoting the title of prophets and likewise I reserve the term prophethood to mean the practicing prophet.
Even if one is to assume that Isa (AS) will retain his prophethood even in such an instance it does nothing with the definition of seal of prophets, because there are other qualifiers for this to be true, such as the last prophet to be born. The last prophet to be appointed as prophet and so on. However, we have reference to suggest that Isa (AS) will be an ummati which implies he will be a follower and not a person who sets down legislation, although he will be miraculous, as per hadith.
But why did you skip the rest of the things which I mentioned from Quran, like the stick of Musa (a.s) becoming snake, fire not hurting Abraheem (a.s), Man-wa-Salwah ...etc.
Ok, thanks for the correction. Prophet Yunus (a.s) lived inside a Whale, now prove it through science how is it possible. You didn't make any scientific sense by correcting my question.
If you can, try also proving existence of "Soul" through science. Have you seen Allah (swt) ? Try proving through science the existence of Allah (swt)
Good Luck
I said it before and i'll say it again. Whatever is IN QURAN is to be believed blindly. No question asked. Allah says angels exists.. We agree. Allah say there is soul.. we agree.. allah tells us about the miracles of different prophet... we agree. Everything is not to be proven through science. When Quran says it happened.. that means it happened. Period. Now the problem is when people have their own stories behind it. The only verse you'll provide me for your support about Jesus AS alive in heaven is the one where Allah says that "he took him unto him"... any place in quran where it said that instead of Jesus AS, God put someone like him on the cross? Do you not think you guys made it all up??.. the verse follows as " but it was made to appear to them as one dead".
Many people dont realize but this belief is very important. Once you’re clear with this.. you wont have problem accepting Imam Mehdi AS. To prove ahmadiyya jamat wrong, one has to sort the belief of coming back/death of Jesus AS.
Can't answer the question, but want to take part in the discussion huh? How cute. :)
from reading your posts on this thread you dont want an answer to the trivial question you have asked
Yes he was a prophet, is a prophet, and always will be!! OK
now u can continue with all your chat about ahmadis !!!
Peace d-tox..ed The thing is he (AS) is not a new prophet and will be a returning prophet with a different set of missions one of which is to destroy Dajjal, another is to demonstrate the clear obedience to Islam and unite the Muslims and humanity in general. None of these objectives make him a new prophet, however, to be born after the prophet Muhammad (SAW) and to** receive wahi** and to make claim to prophethood where previously that claim was not made does infer a new prophetic claim and that is why we do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saab as Isa (AS).
A 'returning' prophet BUT with a 'different' set of mission and yet not be called a new prophet. A prophet who will *not be *getting revelation and yet knows exactly about his missions. Interesting !
.
You again skipped it, please explain how the stick of Musa (a.s) converted into a snake and then back into stick. Also partition of sea after Musa (a.s) hit his stick. That sea allowed Musa (a.s) and his companions to pass by making a passage for them, but not pharoah and his companions who were drawn. WOW! how ?
Also, how did Hazrat Suleiman (a.s) control wind as mentioned in the Quran.
How the moon split into two when the Prophet (saw) pointed finger at it. (Science proves that moon was once split, but not HOW it was split)
Also, how come Hazrat Ismail (a.s) was replaced by an animal when his father tried to butcher him ?
Also tell me about the incident in the Quran when Ibrahim (a.s) butchered different birds, then placed them on different mountains and called them and their dead body parts came flying to him and became original birds again. Please open Quran and see how Allah (swt) has explained this incident to us. Yeah, try to prove this with science.
Also try to prove with science the incident mentioned in the Surah Baqra, when people of bani Israel butchered a cow and when the dead man was hit with a part of it, he became alive and told who his killer was. ARE YOU KIDDING ME ?!?!? QURAN SAYING DEAD MAN coming to LIFE Again. WOW!!
Also prove the incident mentioned in Surah feel, when birds dropped small pebbles to kill a whole army containing ELEPHANTS. ARE YOU KIDDING MEE!!!! HOW CAN THAT BE POSSIBLE. Where did the birds got pebble size bombs from ???!?!?!? and who told them to drop them on the elephants. You very well know what happened to the elephants after those tinyyyyyyyyy pebbles were dropped on them.:)
Good luck in proving it with science :)
p.s. This time please don't skip any question. At least acknowledge that you don't know how it can be explained through science.
So now having agreed that Isa(AS) is still a prophet and will return as a prophet
phew, finally!
- Will Jesus (as) be on the shria of hazrat Moosa(as) when he comes back?
- If he is to come as an ummati of the holy prophet (saw), what happens to the ayah in the qura'an saying he is a messenger to bani-israel? will that verse be no longer valid?
- If he doesn't come with the sharia of hazrat Moosa (as), then what happens to awamir-o-nawahi? what will he enjoin to do and what will he stop people from?
- If he is going to preach the sharia of the Holy Prophet (saw), then who will teach him this sharia? will it be the ulema or will God directly teach him?
[quote]
your next question will be:
"then how can we claim the end of prophethood if he is going to be a prophet on his return?"
The answer to this is again semantics. The thing is he (AS) is not a new prophet and will be a returning prophet with a different set of missions one of which is to destroy Dajjal, another is to demonstrate the clear obedience to Islam and unite the Muslims and humanity in general. None of these objectives make him a new prophet, however, to be born after the prophet Muhammad (SAW) and to receive wahi and to make claim to prophethood where previously that claim was not made does infer a new prophetic claim and that is why we do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saab as Isa (AS).
[/QUOTE]
That's quite a weak argument. Lets say today a child is born while a man is 25 years old. The child dies in a few days, but the man lives for 80 years. Who would a historian call last?
I wonder why you brought Mirza sahib in. The topic of the thread is all about jesus so lets stick to the topic shall we?
Whatever is IN QURAN is to be believed blindly.....Allah tells us about the miracles of different prophet... we agree.
Amazing, first time I heard a follower of MGA saying that we should "blindly" believe in the miracles mentioned in the Quran. I was expecting an answer such as:
"Science says this, which makes sense, and logically this incident can be proved......etc. Science has proved this...that..Miraj can not be physical scientifically,.....Isa (a.s) can't be lifted to sky scientifically.....etc."
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
^ Can we stick to the topic of the thread. There is already a thread about ahmadis which is over 700 posts long. If you think you gotta discuss ahmaids and their beliefs, feel free to go down there. The guy who opened the thread is not an ahmadi.
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
^ Right sir. My apologies for not realizing it, but I hope no one else would bring that discussion again, so that I don't have to reply to them.
A 'returning' prophet BUT with a 'different' set of mission and yet not be called a new prophet. A prophet who will *not be *getting revelation and yet knows exactly about his missions. Interesting !
This is an interesting point. All prophets receive divine guidance from Allah. If Jesus Christ (AS) will not receive revelation, then how will he know about his new mission?
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
Do u belibe in shai Bukarhi or not.
If You Do..Then as long as ur a muslims you will have no hard time comprehending what i have quoted from them on dajal!
Becos the logic i have used to intrpretate them is the same one having being used for them since 1300 years, by the greater and greatest schoalars of Islam till todays scholars.
If you dont belive in hadith Bukhari then pls say it so I wont waste my time with you.
U seem like a well-facilitated guy, do i reallu need to chrun out the numerous hadiths on the suvject...?
Im sure u know what im talking about.
EMD'I S claim dajal is usa sint it...and he drinks fire and water and that.....
or is dajal the american police.
bro in that case the security company i do part time work for also have hats that have eyes on them
A 'returning' prophet BUT with a 'different' set of mission and yet not be called a new prophet. A prophet who will *not be *getting revelation and yet knows exactly about his missions. Interesting !
Peace Mr.Popat
Oh he is to be called a prophet I didn't say he was not to be called a prophet (AS). Yes, he will no longer be in a position where revelation serves anew or a different direction from that what has been set by Muhammad (SAW) he will be a guide and he will have a mission all of which can easily be condensed from hadith and he knew everything that he (AS) had to do even before being taken up. And I did say even if he is to return as a prophet it does not negate seal of prophethood as Isa (AS) was both born and received wahi before Muhammad (SAW) only afterwards this will not happen. And should it happen then it is a sign that the claimant is not Isa(AS).
phew, finally!
- Will Jesus (as) be on the shria of hazrat Moosa(as) when he comes back?
- If he is to come as an ummati of the holy prophet (saw), what happens to the ayah in the qura'an saying he is a messenger to bani-israel? will that verse be no longer valid?
- If he doesn't come with the sharia of hazrat Moosa (as), then what happens to awamir-o-nawahi? what will he enjoin to do and what will he stop people from?
- If he is going to preach the sharia of the Holy Prophet (saw), then who will teach him this sharia? will it be the ulema or will God directly teach him?
That's quite a weak argument. Lets say today a child is born while a man is 25 years old. The child dies in a few days, but the man lives for 80 years. Who would a historian call last?
I wonder why you brought Mirza sahib in. The topic of the thread is all about jesus so lets stick to the topic shall we?
Peace chacha_Ghalib
No Isa (AS) will be on the Shari'ah of Muhammad (SAW) when he returns just as Ahamdiyyat claims.
Just as Ahamdiyyat claims that he has two aspects of his (AS) mission in the same way Isa (AS) was a messenger to bani Israel in his first mission. The difference is that you believe the two missions are done by two people whereas we say the two missions are time dependent aspects for one person.
The Qur'an within the tenets of Islam has it's own version which is to enjoin good and forbid evil as an Ummati he (AS) will undoubtedly be doing these.
Isa(AS) is a prophet and will be sent as a guide, he will not be born so as to be taught the shari'ah and he dwells in a place which is abstract from our existence but not necessarily entirely separate from it. He is given knowledge of Shari'ah as all prophets were and his ability to conform to the shari'ah of Muhammad (SAW) will be an inspriation from Allah (SWT) just like Newton was inspired to discover gravity or whatever fulfils the meaning of 'taught him what he knew not'.
Lastly if the historian was a good one he will say the last person to be born was the child, the last one to die was the man. If the child that was born brought a permanent dye and painted the man blue whereas previously he was red, then the historian would say the man was born red, when he was 25 years old a red child was born who painted the man blue and then died, the man continued to live in his blue state until he died. The red colour denotes the leader of the Ummah, the blue colour denotes the follower.
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
^Why do we try to justify bringing an old prophet to bring Ummate Mohammadi SAW back on right path? Are you trying to impose that Ummat e Mohammadi SAW is so degraded that they cannot generate a Ummati Reformer/Messiah/Nabi?
I mean this is the only thing I can think of that Allah knew that Ummat Mohammadi SAW (the last Ummat, with final Book, with Seal of Prophet SAW) will be so downgraded that they will have to get guidance from Prophet of Bani Israel. I cannot think of any other logical reason for 2nd coming of Isa (A.S).
Can I again remind us about the verse that Allah does not go against his own laws. Everything which happens is according to LAW of ALLAH. If Esa (A.S) was given birth without father then surely Humans have been given the capability for produce this. If this has happen once then can surely happen again or may already happen at places we dont know about. (Again surely Allah did not break his own law for Esa (A.S) to be born with father). If you think this was a miracle then why did Jews rejected him. Shouldnt this have been a great sign for them? They still rejected him and put him up on cross. BTW I am not rejecting happening of Miracles but saying according to Quran says everthing happens according to LAW of ALLAH (which is LAW OF NATURE).
Esa (A.S) was a Messiah for Moosa (A.S) ummat. And Esa (A.S) is again the Messiah for Hadhrat Muhamamd SAW Ummat......shouldnt this ring bells?
^Why do we try to justify bringing an old prophet to bring Ummate Mohammadi SAW back on right path? Are you trying to impose that Ummat e Mohammadi SAW is so degraded that they cannot generate a Ummati Reformer/Messiah/Nabi?
I mean this is the only thing I can think of that Allah knew that Ummat Mohammadi SAW (the last Ummat, with final Book, with Seal of Prophet SAW) will be so downgraded that they will have to get guidance from Prophet of Bani Israel. I cannot think of any other logical reason for 2nd coming of Isa (A.S).
Peace d-tox..ed
I'm not imposing anything the likes of what you have presumed. There is no presumption. If it going to happen it will happen. One could just as easily reason that Allah (SWT) is the Lord of all nations and to show that Isa (AS) will come to this Ummah. Anyway there are traditions about the du'ah of all prophets who wished to be of the Ummah of Muhammad (SAW) and out of them all Isa (AS)'s was accepted. From what I remember you too believe that the Ummah will be split into 73 sects, which is one more than Christians and 2 more than Jews, should your line of questioning be appropriate then first answer why we have 73 sects when others are less than us. You see you are demanding rationalism and there is not place for it here.
Can I again remind us about the verse that Allah does not go against his own laws. Everything which happens is according to LAW of ALLAH. If Esa (A.S) was given birth without father then surely Humans have been given the capability for produce this. If this has happen once then can surely happen again or may already happen at places we dont know about. (Again surely Allah did not break his own law for Esa (A.S) to be born with father). If you think this was a miracle then why did Jews rejected him. Shouldnt this have been a great sign for them? They still rejected him and put him up on cross. BTW I am not rejecting happening of Miracles but saying according to Quran says everthing happens according to LAW of ALLAH (which is LAW OF NATURE).
Esa (A.S) was a Messiah for Moosa (A.S) ummat. And Esa (A.S) is again the Messiah for Hadhrat Muhamamd SAW Ummat......shouldnt this ring bells?
This is a snapshot of how your 'aqeedah differs from the 'aqeedah of mainstream Muslims. We do believe that Allah (SWT) allows miraculous happenings which are beyond the measure of science in any time. The reason why Jews rejected Isa (AS) was because they slandered Maryam (AS) for being unchaste. They didn't believe in him being miraculously conceived even though they had the proof of Maryam (AS) being pious and even though they had they proof of him speaking as a baby.
Everything does indeed occur to the Law of Allah, but it is not true that Allah (SWT) has given us the ability to utilise all of his laws at our will and sense of experimentation. Even with cloning we can only hope to make the same gender of the host, however, Isa (AS) was not a clone of his mother. It is only right to say that his Y chromosomes were completely Created. This by no means contradicts the law of nature because the very first man was made in this way, yet without both parents.
Isa (AS) is the Messiah ... for this ummat or that ummat is your understanding of it. He is the Messiah for all time - Messiah means chosen - what was he chosen for? To be an ummati of Muhammad (SAW).
Re: IS Jesus (PBUH) a Prophet?
^^ well I am not denying Miracles. It has been 1400 years we Humans have learnt a lot but not everything....this is Allah's blessing that he gives us strength to learn more day by day to praise him more.
Just 1 more thing. You said Hadhrat Adam and Hawa (A.S) both were born without parents. So you are saying that they were they very first human beings?
How did human race started after that? Did their off springs married each other and had children? Please explain this in short as I know it is off topic.