Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

what does this mean?

Give you some examples:
Woman’s share in inheritance is half that of a man’s
this part is implemented
but she can keep her share and her husband cannot touch it and he bears all her expenses and pays her the Mahr
this part is not implemented instead she is expected to give a dowry and lots of poor girls cannot get married cuz their parents cannot afford it.
Non-muslims are to pay jizya (they are exempt from fighting though and this is 7th centuary where conscription for military service was virtually a death sentence) and that is waived if they convert to islam
what the ummayyeds did was to declare that it is the land that pays the tax not the people so the converts had to pay jizya even after they converted esp. in EGYpt that caused widespread resentment and rightly so.
so tell me is it the fault of the Prophet(PBUH) or islam that such innovations and distortions were made.Can you find any faults in the way islam was implemented at the time of Holy Prophet(PBUH) ?

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

das Reich

[quote]
The reasons are that islam was revolutionary it tried to destroy the existing social order of injustice and feudalism and replace it with a egalitarian system.
[/quote]

there is nothing egalitarian about sharia, forcing people of the book to submit to islam, be humbled and subdued and pay yearly ransom to stay alive.

or in the case of Hindu and other polytheists, be killed outright

there is nothing egalitarian about sharia, where non muslims testimony in court , and womens testimony, is worth less than a muslim man

there is nothing egalitarian, about a man being able to divorce his wife, by repeating 'I divorce you' three times, and a woman cannot do the same

the rest of your post are meaningless excuses for the failure of islam in all forms

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

[quote]
Can you find any faults in the way islam was implemented at the time of Holy Prophet?
[/quote]

he made his stepson divorce his wife, to marry her himself

he married a 6 year old, who promptly lost her hair in terror..so he allowed her to keep her dolls, and did not force her to have sex until she was 9

while he was married to his first wife, she had the money and she had control over him, after she died

he 'married' 6-9 times? and had sex with how many slaves?

this is without 'faults'?

Mohammed teaches, ".......do what is halal (permitted) and avoid what is haram (forbidden).

These have nothing to do with right and wrong. For example, homosexuality is haram but pedophilia is halal.

Masturbation is haram but killing the non-Muslims is halal.

wine is haram but stoning is halal.

For a woman, exposing her hair in public is haram but for her husband beating her is halal.

The concept of Islamic piety defies human logic.

A pious Muslim is not necessarily a good person by our definition.

A pious Muslim is one who follows Muhammad, he could be a terrorist, a child molester, a wife beater or a liar. As long as he lies to non-believers, he is pious.

As long as he says his obligatory prayers, fasts, his beard and his dress are the right size, he enters into toilet with the correct foot and follows all the rituals meticulously, he is pious. "

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

I always laught when muslims try and rationalize humiliating non muslims

Non-muslims are to pay jizya (they are exempt from fighting though and this is 7th centuary where conscription for military service was virtually a death sentence) and that is waived if they convert to islam

you make it sound so helpful and generous…but here is the real situation of the dhimmi and payement of Jizya

Internet History Sourcebooks Project

"It is forbidden to the tolerated peoples living on Muslim territory to clothe themselves in the same manner as the chiefs, the scholars, and the nobles. They should not be allowed to clothe themselves in costly fabrics which have been cut in the modes which are forbidden to them, in order that they may not offend the sensibilities of poor Muslims and in order that their faith in their religion should not be shaken by this. [Poor Muslims may regret their faith when they see how well-dressed the Christians and Jews are.]

"They should not be permitted to employ mounts like the Muslims. They must use neither saddles, nor iron-stirrups, in order to be distinguished from the true believers. They must under no circumstance ride horses because of the noble character of this animal. The Most-High has said [Qu’ran 8:62]: ‘And through powerful squadrons [of horses] through which you will strike terror into your own and God’s enemies.’ [A verse of the Qu’ran makes a good support for a law. Verses may even be torn out of their context.]

"They should not be permitted to take Muslims into their service because God has glorified the people of Islam. He has given them His aid and has given them a guarantee by these words [Qu’ran 3:140]: ‘Surely God will never give preeminence to unbelievers over the true believers.’ Now this is just what is happening today, for their servants are Muslims taken from among men of a mature age or from those who are still young. This is one of the greatest scandals to which the guardians of authority must put an end. It is wrong to greet them even with a simple ‘how-do-you-do’; to serve them, even for wages, at the baths or in what relates to their riding animals; and it is forbidden to accept anything from their hand, for that would be an act of debasement by the faithful. They are forbidden while going through the streets to ape the manners of the Muslims, and still less those of the cities of the religion. They shall only walk single-file, and in narrow lanes they must withdraw even more into the most cramped part of the road.

"One may read that which follows in Bukhari and Muslim [religious authorities of the ninth century]: ‘Jews and Christians shall never begin a greeting; if you encounter one of them on the road, push him into the narrowest and tightest spot.’

** The absence of every mark of consideration toward them is obligatory for us; we ought never to give them the place of honor in an assembly when a Muslim is present. This is in order to humble them and to honor the true believers.**

They should under no circumstances acquire Muslim slaves, white or black. Therefore they should get rid of the slaves which they now have for the), have no right to own them. If one of their slaves who was formerly an infidel, becomes a Muslim, he shall be removed from them, and his master, willingly or unwillingly, shall be compelled to sell him and to accept the price for him.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

A pious Muslim is not necessarily a good person by our definition.

"

The muslims really do not care what “your defination” is of a good person.
Following Muhammad(PBUH) is a basic tenent of islam as he implemented the will of God(according to the muslims).If anyone wants to call himself a muslim he has to follow the teaching of the Quran and the prophet(PBUH) so in this sense islam is not a secular democracy it is very much a dictatorship of God(you might not like this)

speaking of women’s rights do you think about widow burning in hinduism
and witchhunts in the western europe?

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

I always laught when muslims try and rationalize humiliating non muslims

you make it sound so helpful and generous…but here is the real situation of the dhimmi and payement of Jizya

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1772-jewsinislam.html

You are talking about some conservative muslim in 1772 (when moslems were in decline thruout the world)???I was talking about 7th centuary do you have no sense of history and as stated in this article “this is not the muslim law just the opinion of a conservative muslim”

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

the rest of your post are meaningless excuses for the failure of islam in all forms

It is useless to argue with you if you just refute all the historical facts by such sweeping remarks

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

As long as he says his obligatory prayers, fasts, his beard and his dress are the right size, he enters into toilet with the correct foot and follows all the rituals meticulously, he is pious. "

Hardly Quran is full of condemnation of such hypocrites

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

The muslims really do not care what “your defination” is of a good person.
Following Muhammad(PBUH) is a basic tenent of islam as he implemented the will of God(according to the muslims).If anyone wants to call himself a muslim he has to follow the teaching of the Quran and the prophet(PBUH) so in this sense islam is not a secular democracy it is very much a dictatorship of God(you might not like this)

interesting you should say this.

What do you think will happen to European and AMerican secular democracies, if we allow unlimited islamic immigration?

when will the muslims in Europe and America demand sharia, and the submission of all non muslims to islam>

009.029YUSUFALI:**

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. **

does muslim immigration threaten western secular democracy?

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

It is useless to argue with you if you just refute all the historical facts by such sweeping remarks

what historical facts?

that islam was strong before all the civilizations conquered died?

It takes hundreds of years for the Byzantine/Roman civilization to die…for the Persian civilization to become a shado…for the Hundu civilization to kneel down

when these once great civilizations were finally brough under the yoke of islam, islam reverted to its true nature

like that of Arabia, he heart of islam

always desolate, ignorant and poor, because it had no other culture to steal from

and now of course, there is oil

these people amassing the greatest wealth through no effort or accomplishment of their own

and the rulers hold on to their power and money, while supressing and controlling the population

and giving their pathetic zakat with much pomp and circumstance, while not building any economic infrastructure to improve the lives of the people

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

interesting you should say this.

What do you think will happen to European and AMerican secular democracies, if we allow unlimited islamic immigration?

when will the muslims in Europe and America demand sharia, and the submission of all non muslims to islam>

does muslim immigration threaten western secular democracy?

Muslims are a minority in europe and america and will remain so in the forseable future,being a minority in a foriegn land they cannot demand the enforcement of sharia being a minority(there is no islamic law like that) .I cannot say what is right in the immigration issues that is for the people of europe and america to decide.The question of immigration is more a racial than religious issue naturally you cannot force the french,german and british to accept a large number of african and asian immigrants europe belongs to the europeans.

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

Muslims are a minority in europe and america and will remain so in the forseable future,being a minority in a foriegn land they cannot demand the enforcement of sharia being a minority(there is no islamic law like that) .I cannot say what is right in the immigration issues that is for the people of europe and america to decide.The question of immigration is more a racial than religious issue naturally you cannot force the french,german and british to accept a large number of african and asian immigrants europe belongs to the europeans.

well, at least you are honest.

Masgids and muslims are being watched and investigated in Europe and USA…

muslims make it clear, they do not wish to become Americans, they wish to be muslims living in America

enjoying the society the Christians and Jews create, while planning to destroy it

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

you say

[quote]
The question of immigration is more a racial than religious issue naturally you cannot force the french,german and british to accept a large number of african and asian immigrants europe belongs to the europeans.
[/quote]

no

immigration of different races is not a problem

the Chinese and Japanese and Malay and African do not have problems assimilating and living peacefully in western society

it is muslims who keep making demands for western society to change for them

When you go to your neighbors house, YOU change
you do not ask your neighbor to change his house for YOU

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

It is not the Chinese and Japanese who are filling up the prisons of Europe and America and bombing in Spain, England and USA and ISrael and Tunisia and Egypt and Phillipines, Yemen etc..

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

what historical facts?

that islam was strong before all the civilizations conquered died?

It takes hundreds of years for the Byzantine/Roman civilization to die…for the Persian civilization to become a shado…for the Hundu civilization to kneel down

and giving their pathetic zakat with much pomp and circumstance, while not building any economic infrastructure to improve the lives of the people

That was the problem the pure islam was corrupted by the persian, Byzantine and hindu cultural influences.
Yes some muslims do give zakat to show off their piety
but What infrastructure did these civilisations build for the poor?
if I remember correctly it was Bismarck of germany a much maligned figure who first started this state welfare system in europe.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

enjoying the society the Christians and Jews create, while planning to destroy it

Correction the Europeans created this society and most of them were very secular
they lost their religious zeal after the 30yrs war in germany and the puritans in england.Before this the european societies were just as(if not more) more backward then as muslim societies are now.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

It is not the Chinese and Japanese who are filling up the prisons of Europe and America and bombing in Spain, England and USA and ISrael and Tunisia and Egypt and Phillipines, Yemen etc..

firstly it depends upon the time-period you are talking about
have you forgotten the yellow peril…the japanease in the concentration camps?
what you are describing are political problem,it dosent mean that there is something like this intrinsic to islam.

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

the Churches in Europe established the fists hospices and facilities for the poor, and I am sure, before that there were customs in place where the poor were taken care of

for example:
in the Bible

Ruth 2 DBT

2:3 And she went; and she came and gleaned in the fields after the reapers; and she chanced to light on an allotment of Boaz, who was of the family of Elimelech.

2:4 And behold, Boaz came from Bethlehem; and he said to the reapers, Jehovah be with you! And they said to him, Jehovah bless thee!

2:5 And Boaz said to his servant that was set over the reapers, Whose maiden is this?

2:6 And the servant that was set over the reapers answered and said, It is the Moabitish maiden who came back with Naomi out of the fields of Moab;

2:7 and she said, I pray you, let me glean and gather among the sheaves after the reapers. And she came, and has continued from the morning until now: her sitting in the house has been little as yet.

the grain left in the field was for the poor..even in Bible times

A Cooperative Effort
In the Old Testament, there were two means to help the poor. The first was through the gleaning laws listed in Leviticus 19:9-10 and Deuteronomy 24:19-22. As farmers reaped their crops, they would leave the corners of their fields unharvested, and anything that fell to the ground was left for the poor.

The second method used to help the poor was the tithe. In Leviticus 27:30 we find that the tithe provided funds both for the church and for the poor. The funds were distributed by the priests to those who were truly needy.

In the New Testament, the church also had a role in helping to meet the needs of the poor. In 1 Corinthians 16, Paul talks about a collection that was sent from the churches to the Jerusalem believers. We also find many scriptural admonitions calling for Christians to distribute their resources to others compassionately (2 Cor. 9:7; 1 Tim. 5:9-10; 6:18; James 1:27).

thousand years before mohammed

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

That was the problem the pure islam was corrupted by the persian, Byzantine and hindu cultural influences.
Yes some muslims do give zakat to show off their piety
but What infrastructure did these civilisations build for the poor?
if I remember correctly it was Bismarck of germany a much maligned figure who first started this state welfare system in europe.

‘pure’ islam is in Yemen and Arabia?

what are you saying?

Islam is a mixture of Judiasm, Christianity and Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, through the prism of an illiterate

someone who was an orphan, dependant and obligated to his Uncle as a child,

dependant and obligated and under the control of his wealthy old wife as a young man,

and finally free after she died to express his anger and lust for power

to marry a 6 yr old

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

Correction the Europeans created this society and most of them were very secular
they lost their religious zeal after the 30yrs war in germany and the puritans in england.Before this the european societies were just as(if not more) more backward then as muslim societies are now.

no, that is a convenient fantasy.

You want to believe Europe was a secular creation so that islam can slip in

not going to happen

the tide is beginning to turn