Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

[deedawar]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

Anyway, this thread is about questioning the (alleged) bankrptsy of Islamic believes. So lets get on it. Mods can move above posts to appropriate place if they like. Or maybe that thread is closed.

[picoico]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

Would somebody care to define "Islamism"....seems like the logical place to start if one seriously wants to answer the question....simply asking if XYZ is a bankrupt ideology without even specifying what XYZ are is a bit of a non-starter.

[pakjangjoo]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

it's not about the bankruptcy of Islamic beliefs, but about Islamist beliefs. note the difference. Islam as a religion is different from the exploitation of Islam as a political ideology in order to allow the likes of Maududi to rule.

[deedawar]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@pakjangjoo

Islam as a religion is different from the exploitation of Islam as a political ideology in order to allow the likes of Maududi to rule.

Please prove this statement.

Hint: you can number your points and we can discuss one by one.

[pakjangjoo]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

There is a difference between "religion" and "political ideology". What Islamists argue is that Islam is both a religion and a political ideology. Their arguments rely on the fact that the early Muslim caliphs ruled according to Islamic law. However, Islam as a religious doctrine has evolved since then. What the Islamists leave out is mediaeval theology where a separate domain was created for the State because of the increasing complexity of governing.

[ak47]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@pakjangjoo

There is a difference between “religion” and “political ideology”. What Islamists argue is that Islam is both a religion and a political ideology. Their arguments rely on the fact that the early Muslim caliphs ruled according to Islamic law. However, Islam as a religious doctrine has evolved since then. What the Islamists leave out is mediaeval theology where a separate domain was created for the State because of the increasing complexity of governing.

By your analogy capitalism is also outdated because it is hundreds of years old. Time is not the judge of a ideology the results and implementation of the ideology is what can be judged upon and if you want to dimiss 1400 years of islamic ideology as outdated you have to proove it is outdated and not compatible today and not just say it.

[shweetdreamz]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@deedawar

Again, two different issues. Sorry I have to explain you such obvious difference.

Apostate issue deals with door towrds outside!

Spread of islam deals with door towards inside!

Got it?.

yeah i knew that but thanks anyways

if u didnt read before, my point was that the whole idea of killing an apostate scares people and they do not have the freedom to choose another religion/no religion for themselves. outwardly they are still muslims, this is akin to spreading a religion by sustaining the population and stopping those who wish to leave.

[system]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@picoico

There is fitna, and there are those who are apostastes and wage war against us…why make a distinction?

Well you said that a person who is an apostate and makes touble for us is someone we whould be weary of… But are we really against him because he is making trouble for us or because he is an Apostate. Because if the only reason we are against someone is because they cause us trouble regarldess of whether they are apostate or not, then shouldnt the same apply to people like Osma who has caused Muslims SOOOOO many problems also be treated in the same way.
If that is the case, then this whole converstation regarding Apostates is pointless, because us being against them is irrelevent is since its not their being apostates thats a problem but the fact that they are cousing us harm.
The title of this thread shouldnt be Islam against Apostates but Islam against those who do harm to ISLAM, which include people like Osama among others.

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@ak47

Time is not the judge of a ideology the results and implementation of the ideology is what can be judged upon and if you want to dimiss 1400 years of islamic ideology as outdated you have to proove it is outdated and not compatible today and not just say it.

there is no islamic society today that can sucessfully compete in the world in any way

and the poverty and illiteracy of islamic countries is greater that of sub Saharan Africa

islam chokes and kills innovation…shirk

thats why so many muslims emmigrate and muslims treaten and terrorize and kill apostates

islam is held together by paranoia, terror and ignorance

[ak47]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

there is no islamic society today that can sucessfully compete in the world in any way

and the poverty and illiteracy of islamic countries is greater that of sub Saharan Africa

islam chokes and kills innovation…shirk

thats why so many muslims emmigrate and muslims treaten and terrorize and kill apostates

islam is held together by paranoia, terror and ignorance

So you claim and your oppressor rulers like Bush and Blair working day and night to prevent the return of the islamic state, by physically occupying land because they no longer rely on thier puppet rulers in the region!

Islam chokes innovation does it have you any proof of this or is this another tired old slogan from the islamaphobic media try a new line please its getting boring refuting these old lines.

Islam is held together by paranoia and terror thats funny that 2 billion muslims have got guns pointed at their heads have they? how stupid do you really feel when you say such nonsense!

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

Lets face it muslims are backward today NOT because of following islam but because what they follow are their own backward pre-islamic(read pagan) cultural practices with a sprinkling of islamic rituals

[ak47]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

Muslim countries do not follow any ideology take pakistan they implement a mixture of capitalism, socialism and a sprinkle of islam bascially rowing the boat in 3 different directions no wonder they won't head in one correct direction they will be going round in circles instead.

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

Lets face it muslims are backward today NOT because of following islam but because what they follow are their own backward pre-islamic(read pagan) cultural practices with a sprinkling of islamic rituals

what does that say about the islam, if after 1400 years ‘pre islamic’ ignorance has so much influence?

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@ak47

Muslim countries do not follow any ideology take pakistan they implement a mixture of capitalism, socialism and a sprinkle of islam bascially rowing the boat in 3 different directions no wonder they won’t head in one correct direction they will be going round in circles instead.

theologically, moslem countries follow sharia…ell, sometimes they make some pretense of writing a constitution, which is ignored as soon as the article saying “no law shall be passed which conflicts with sharia”

so the whole constitution charade is exposed as just that

there is no freedom of speech

there is no equality before the law for non muslims or women

the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is rejected as anathema to islam and against sharia

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

what does that say about the islam, if after 1400 years ‘pre islamic’ ignorance has so much influence?

Is it the fault of the religion? or those who implement it.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

theologically, moslem countries follow sharia…ell, sometimes they make some pretense of writing a constitution, which is ignored as soon as the article saying “no law shall be passed which conflicts with sharia”

so the whole constitution charade is exposed as just that

there is no freedom of speech

there is no equality before the law for non muslims or women

the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is rejected as anathema to islam and against sharia

Unless islamic rules are not implemented in its entirety there will be no justice.
you cannot just take the laws that suit you and ignore the ones that do not.

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

ak47

http://www.binbaz.org.sa/salatb.asp

Indispensable implication of Sunnah and caution against Innovation
All praise be to Allâh who completed the religion for us, perfected the blessing on us and chose Islam as our religion. May the blessings and peace be upon His slave and Messenger, who called upon people to obey his Lord and cautioned against extravagance, innovation and disobedience; and may Allâh bless his posterity, his companions and those who follow his footsteps till the Day of Judgement.

http://islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=46

An outstanding characteristic of the Sahabah is their absolute adherence to the Sunnah of the Prophet, salla Allaahu Alaihe wa sallam, and their absolute disaproval of Bid`ah (innovation). Some Sahabah narrated the following story:

http://islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=45

Innovation in Islaam is the invention, creation or addition of any religious matter which was not (originally) found in Islaam. Therefore, Islaam warns against it and invalidates any religious deed which does not originate from the Qur’aan and the Sunnah. Prophet Mohammad, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, says in this respect: “He who innovates something that is not in agreement with our matter (religion), will have it rejected.” [Al-Bukharee and Muslim] This is because innovation in religion is an opposition to Islaam; it implies that our religion is incomplete and imperfect with regards to the matters of worship. Shaikh Ibn 'Uthaimeen says: " Innovation entails the adoption of dangerous ways":

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

Is it the fault of the religion? or those who implement it.

only people implement religions…what is the purpose of religion ?

after 1400 we can see how the islamic world implements the religion

what use is a religion which cannot be implemented, or is so poorly understood and whose adherents remain the poorest and most ignorant and violent in the world?

[austin]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@Das Reich

Unless islamic rules are not implemented in its entirety there will be no justice.
you cannot just take the laws that suit you and ignore the ones that do not.

what does this mean?

[Das_Reich]

Re: Is Islamism a bankrupt ideology?

@austin

only people implement religions…what is the purpose of religion ?

after 1400 we can see how the islamic world implements the religion

what use is a religion which cannot be implemented, or is so poorly understood and whose adherents remain the poorest and most ignorant and violent in the world?

Reason why it is not implemented is not because it is not understood or cannot be implemented.The reasons are that islam was revolutionary it tried to destroy the existing social order of injustice and feudalism and replace it with a egalitarian system.This threatened the ruling classes so they bought off the mullahs to confine islam in the mosque and seperate the state from the religion.The people who could have implemented the puritan form of islam(pious caliphs) were assasinated early in its history so that islam can be used as a tool of arab nationalism.