Re: Is fear…
Post 20
Post 13 
Gora Kala is contradictory by name and by nature! 
Re: Is fear...
Interesting how something you feel is worth discussing is something you do not believe in.
Anyway, back to the topic. You said earlier that god of devils = root cause. Therefore, you are asking if fear is the root cause that forces human beings to skin humanity from their moral lives.
By the term. Skin I'm expecting you are intending that to mean 'prevent', so by asking this question you have also set a couple of premises that we might contest in order to answer the question effectively. Such as
A) is the god of devils and adequate illustration for the term root cause or not? B) does fear always hinder or 'skin' whatever that means humanity from morality? C) doe the main clauses of "force" apply in a consistent manner?
So even by asking a question one can indeed imply certain things, because the question itself can be based on a premise that needs to be questioned.
For example if someone asks, "what if God died?" AuzdubillahiminaSahaitaaniRajeem ... The question is wrong, because the questioner has entertained a fallacious premise about God so the answer in any case is not valid.
What we have been asking you here Gora Kala is to qualify your question.
Peace Bro Psyah (you forgot that to say peace this time, we are not at war)
Interesting how you are twisting the words to suite your rationale. What I believed in was not offered here to be discussed, or at least not yet; I presented an argument to see a counter argument, is it not exactly how a healthy discussion ought to be? Bro, I can start ripping apart every line that you say, I would rather find it very easy. But unfortunately, I don’t have luxury of time on my side to do that, let’s see what you came up with further in your reply, shall we?
A) No bro, root cause may not adequately illustrate the term “god of devils” in all circumstances but might be sufficient in certain situations.
B) Yes, in the context with which I asked the question. And “No” in the context in which you probably wanted to reply.
C) I failed to understand this point
Again I did not ask to speculate and question my intention or postmortem the presumed premise. Bro, keep Allah from this discussion, I believe I said that before and btw it is all about conviction and faith rather than right or wrong. There are millions that don’t even believe in God, so your faith can not set the premise for the question that one can ask.
Re: Is fear…
Peace bro Psyah (Don’t forget that)
I don’t know what you are trying to say in this post.
Gora Kala is contradictory only in your perception Bro, not to me.
You want to decipher my nick now? LOL
Re: Is fear...
Diwana,
"Is fear bad" is the question and like I said a question can not be conclusive about the answer it is inquiring about.
You are highlighting words out of context, its simple and always work. I don't want to go back and write every thing again.
What is OP then?
Re: Is fear...
Disagree with respect.
Just like hate is reactionary emotion, fear is too. Nothing 'ingrained' about fear. And you contradicted when said ingrained AND reflective in same sentence.
Now if you talk about pathologic state then any excessive emotion which is shown as 'ingrained' is sign of disease.
Really, where does fear of death come from? How is it reactive?
You mean to say anything ingrained can not manifest itself?
How reflective and ingrained contradict each other, specially when used in one sentence.
Re: Is fear...
Peace bro Psyah (Don't forget that)
I don't know what you are trying to say in this post.
Gora Kala is contradictory only in your perception Bro, not to me.
You want to decipher my nick now? LOL
Gora Kala = Coconut?
With a push .... I think this thread has had enough air time ... develop your thread please .... I actually think it s a good topic, pity that you are more interested in the side discussions.
Re: Is fear...
Really, where does fear of death come from? How is it reactive?
You mean to say anything ingrained can not manifest itself?
How reflective and ingrained contradict each other, specially when used in one sentence.
Ok ... so you are saying that fear of death is an impulse much like feeling pain is an impulse, yet, hate is something we deliberate on in order for it to be exhibited. However, can we apply this rule on a child? Is a child who has no conscious grip of it's own life really fear death, yet it feels pain doesn't it?
Does it mean that pain, is even more ingrained than fear and fear in turn more ingrained that hate? Or does it mean that you have not qualified what it is you are saying about what is or is not part of our nature?
Re: Is fear...
Ok ... so you are saying that fear of death is an impulse much like feeling pain is an impulse, yet, hate is something we deliberate on in order for it to be exhibited. However, can we apply this rule on a child? Is a child who has no conscious grip of it's own life really fear death, yet it feels pain doesn't it?
Does it mean that pain, is even more ingrained than fear and fear in turn more ingrained that hate? Or does it mean that you have not qualified what it is you are saying about what is or is not part of our nature?
Bro, pain is a feeling and nothing without it, fear is psychological phenomenon for every and anyone conscious about life. I can not speak for a child who can not speak for himself, yet there is ample evidence in human beings and in other species to be aware and fearful about death.
I did't ask about hate, I dismissed it as being reactive and having nothing to do with fear.
Re: Is fear...
Gora Kala = Coconut?
With a push .... I think this thread has had enough air time ... develop your thread please .... I actually think it s a good topic, pity that you are more interested in the side discussions.
Sarcasm will not get you anywhere.
If you can and wish to close the thread, go ahead and close it but don't blame me for derailing it, you can read the posts again to know who has been passive aggressive here.
Re: Is fear...
Bro, pain is a feeling and nothing without it, fear is psychological phenomenon for every and anyone conscious about life. I can not speak for a child who can not speak for himself, yet there is ample evidence in human beings and in other species to be aware and fearful about death.
I did't ask about hate, I dismissed it as being reactive and having nothing to do with fear.
Fear, the path to the dark side it is, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
Ok let's move on ...
Hear in one swoop, Yoda has agreed with you that fear is bad, and that hate is reactive and fear comes first. However, he feels like every good Jedi that it can be curtailed. So ingrained that it may be, he feels one cannot have fear in order to avoid the dark side.
Although I agree with most of what master Yoda says, I can't agree that fear is inherently evil and must be curtailed.
Re: Is fear...
Sarcasm will not get you anywhere.
If you can and wish to close the thread, go ahead and close it but don't blame me for derailing it, you can read the posts again to know who has been passive aggressive here.
Oh the passive aggressive has been me ... I admit that, but I have not contradicted myself - you have and claim the contrary. However, you have stuck your to guns about the fear being ingrained part ...
I just think if we didn't have fear would we still not do the same evils? Sometimes fear can make us avoid war ... Hide instead of confront ... Safety before Freedom.
Re: Is fear...
Oh the passive aggressive has been me ... I admit that, but I have not contradicted myself - you have and claim the contrary. However, you have stuck your to guns about the fear being ingrained part ...
I just think if we didn't have fear would we still not do the same evils? Sometimes fear can make us avoid war ... Hide instead of confront ... Safety before Freedom.
I don't want to do exactly what you tried to do with my posts but there are contradictions in your posts whether you admit or you don't.
Avoiding a loss is an action that one would take under the fear, it can drive to or away from the war.
Re: Is fear...
Diwana,
"Is fear bad" is the question and like I said a question can not be conclusive about the answer it is inquiring about.
You are highlighting words out of context, its simple and always work. I don't want to go back and write every thing again.
What is OP then?
My friend, when you refer something as God of devils, that means you are saying fear is bad. **
Why not explain why you used the word God of devil?**
Then you asked the question if this God of devil skins human of humanity. That question by itself was enough without qualifying fear as Gd of devil.
Like I said earlier maybe yo did not mean to portray fear as bad, but then I have no idea why continued to flip flop.
Really, where does fear of death come from? How is it reactive?
You mean to say anything ingrained can not manifest itself?
How reflective and ingrained contradict each other, specially when used in one sentence.
Fear of death is not ingrained.
A lot of emotions we have are reactive or reactionary.
There are a lot of people who do not have fear of death given the right situation!!! Is that a news to you?
**
You are mixing survival instinct with fear of death. Big difference.**
I never said ingrained cannot manifest itself.
Reactive and ingrained as far as I understand two opposite words but you used these in same sentence for fear.
OP = Original Poster. And that is YOU.
All it would take is to even google the meaning. Right?
Re: Is fear...
I don't want to do exactly what you tried to do with my posts but there are contradictions in your posts whether you admit or you don't.
Avoiding a loss is an action that one would take under the fear, it can drive to or away from the war.
Peace Gora Kala
We have been trying to pin point the root cause for "making humanity immoral" if it so happens that "fear" can drive both to war or away from war then the initial question's answer must be returned in the negative. Something cannot be the root cause when it can render results that are opposite to the hypothesis.
Another example is that of a righteous ruler who uses wrath to frighten criminals not to do crimes ... afraid of the consequences fear can be used for good as well as being an agent for bad.
Also, in the absence of fear and say in the presence of lust would that stop a man from being a rapist? I feel there are many people with overflowing lust yet their fear of consequences keeps them behaving morally. And to qualify Yoda's statement I would say:
Fear can lead to anger, and anger can lead to hate, and hate can lead to suffering. At each stage there is the option of making the best of the situation. But for some the absence of hate may bring in them a love for evil, the absence of anger may bring in them indifference and dampen their survival instinct, and the absence of fear may bring in them competition for other vices, such as lust, greed, no regard for life.
If you want to know the real answer to what "makes humanity immoral" then I believe the answer is "tadbir" or "self-determination" or "self-direction" or "self-management" - it is the trait of choosing for ourselves that what aught not be chosen - thinking ourselves wiser than the Creator of our design purpose. If we desire not to desire, but to conform to the Will of the Creator then and only then does humanity evade immorality.
Re: Is fear...
When the creator is pleased with you and you are pleased with the creator, then you have peace and serenity. Fear and pessimism are emotions of the nafs, not soul.
But caution is a different thing, one has to be cautious.
Peace ~RestLess~
I was seeing where these responses were going, but unfortunately I feel daada's post is misleading and in turn affected your response. Fear is not the antithesis for contentment. Fear is a faculty of the nufs and it must be directed not eliminated. Taqwa contains the meaning of both simultaneously loving and fearing Allah (SWT) in which case the correct place to direct fear is in Allah (SWT).
The idea of exercising caution is to estimate, evaluate, risk mitigate - all of which are mental functions ... the concepts of Zen remove emotion from the equation of decision making, however Islam balances decision making not by removing emotion but by placing it subservient to the faculty of wisdom. This concept can be understood in Imam Al-Ghazalis Ihya UloomuDeen ...
Besides how much more beautiful is it to place fear in Allah (SWT), than not to fear at all and merely exercise caution?
Re: Is fear...
People say love is the opposite of hate ... I disagree ...
Love is the opposite of Fear, while Hate is the opposite of Bliss. To hate is to be strongly discontent. To be strongly content is to be in bliss. Explanation:
Love and Fear are the subject's magnetic forces of attraction and repulsion to/from a distant object.
Hate and Bliss are inversely synchronous harmonic resonances exhibited when the subject is in contact with the object.
Re: Is fear...
Peace ~RestLess~
I was seeing where these responses were going, but unfortunately I feel daada's post is misleading and in turn affected your response. Fear is not the antithesis for contentment. Fear is a faculty of the nufs and it must be directed not eliminated. Taqwa contains the meaning of both simultaneously loving and fearing Allah (SWT) in which case the correct place to direct fear is in Allah (SWT).
The idea of exercising caution is to estimate, evaluate, risk mitigate - all of which are mental functions ... the concepts of Zen remove emotion from the equation of decision making, however Islam balances decision making not by removing emotion but by placing it subservient to the faculty of wisdom. This concept can be understood in Imam Al-Ghazalis Ihya UloomuDeen ...
Besides how much more beautiful is it to place fear in Allah (SWT), than not to fear at all and merely exercise caution?
You are right, I guess thats what I was trying to say. You said it more eloquently. :)
Fearing the displeasure of Allah comes from the soul.
Shayir kehta hai ke ..
Jab se woh aankh hai khafa hamse
Yoon lage hai khafa hai maikhana
Re: Is fear...
My friend, when you refer something as God of devils, that means you are saying fear is bad. **
Why not explain why you used the word God of devil?**
Then you asked the question if this God of devil skins human of humanity. That question by itself was enough without qualifying fear as Gd of devil.
Like I said earlier maybe yo did not mean to portray fear as bad, but then I have no idea why continued to flip flop.
Fear of death is not ingrained.
A lot of emotions we have are reactive or reactionary.
There are a lot of people who do not have fear of death given the right situation!!! Is that a news to you? ** You are mixing survival instinct with fear of death. Big difference.**
I never said ingrained cannot manifest itself.
Reactive and ingrained as far as I understand two opposite words but you used these in same sentence for fear.
OP = Original Poster. And that is YOU.
All it would take is to even google the meaning. Right?
Let's be funny or at least try to be because I had had terrible days between then and now ( Then=when you wrote this post, Now =when I read it)
Ah, I am sorry I would have explained had I used the word "God", must you be keeping one eye closed just like your pretty avatar and unfortunately the other eye only reads "Capital"......( Just kidding)
There is a bigger difference in god and God, bigger than that possibly exists between fear of death and survival instinct. ( Yes/No...why)......
I asked because every god of devil may not be interested in skinning the human race from humanity, there might exist a good devil...(Search is on)( Psyah may be able to answer if devil can be good, with or without qualifying good...right)
oh boy ...politics of "flip flopping" has crept into my posts, I am sorry I thought I was running for the president. ( Must we flip if we flop....is the question now?)
Buddy if you have no fear of death you should think about consulting a psychiatrist (lol, sorry).....
Indeed like "hate" emotions are mostly an outcome.
very true, in the sermons, in books of super men, in the stories of conquest many brave never feared death. Many , common like myself, don't fear death untill the angel of death starts flapping his wings.....( I am scared already)
Something must be there to rush adrenaline, is it fear? (Yes/No......)
I am sorry if you never said "ingrained cannot manifest itself"
I will never use reactive and ingrained in one sentence again, I promise...( Are you my friend now...please...lol)
To be honest Dewana, I don't Google my posts, I consider myself better to be a dumb but origanl than pseudo intellectual with some googled wisdom.
Oh...Jesus, I have a to leave in one min.
Thanks appreciate your post.
Re: Is fear...
I asked because every god of devil may not be interested in skinning the human race from humanity, there might exist a good devil...(Search is on)( Psyah may be able to answer if devil can be good, with or without qualifying good...right)
Peace Gora Kala
The god of devils - why did you use this self-created metaphor to represent the term "root cause"? The term "god" was enough ... although I dislike that word ... I prefer to use "instigator" or "initiator" instead.
According to Plato a candidate for root cause cannot be the real root cause if it's presence is responsible for making two opposites manifest. For example ...
There is a medicine X - Three people are ill, all three take the medicine, one dies slowly, another dies quickly and the third gets better.
The one who gets better medicine X worked for him, the one who dies quickly the medicine was poison for him, the one who dies slowly the medicine was not suitable to cure his particular illness.
We cannot therefore say that medicine X is the cure to illness, but we can say medicine X is the cure to illness of a given variety provided the person is not allergic to the medicine.
In which case "fear" cannot be the "root cause" for immorality ... it has to be more sophisticated than that ... I follow to say that it is "misplaced fear whilst having imbalanced wisdom" that will always lead to immorality. In this case morality is taken to be what the person himself considers to be moral and not imposing my idea of morality.
Re: Is fear...
Peace Gora Kala
The god of devils - why did you use this self-created metaphor to represent the term "root cause"? The term "god" was enough ... although I dislike that word ... I prefer to use "instigator" or "initiator" instead.
According to Plato a candidate for root cause cannot be the real root cause if it's presence is responsible for making two opposites manifest. For example ...
There is a medicine X - Three people are ill, all three take the medicine, one dies slowly, another dies quickly and the third gets better.
The one who gets better medicine X worked for him, the one who dies quickly the medicine was poison for him, the one who dies slowly the medicine was not suitable to cure his particular illness.
We cannot therefore say that medicine X is the cure to illness, but we can say medicine X is the cure to illness of a given variety provided the person is not allergic to the medicine.
In which case "fear" cannot be the "root cause" for immorality ... it has to be more sophisticated than that ... I follow to say that it is "misplaced fear whilst having imbalanced wisdom" that will always lead to immorality. In this case morality is taken to be what the person himself considers to be moral and not imposing my idea of morality.
No, I am not comparing myself with Shakespeare, just to let you know, he “invented” or “coined” thousands of words. Language, my friend, is not divine to its entirety, it evolves and that is exactly why I use “self-created” metaphor. More so being a poet (also, and now blushing) plain words starts dying if I don’t add symbols. I, therefore, humbly request to please allow me to use words with the freedom of choice……Thanks.
With that said, I don’t mean that every word or metaphor that has evolved is an epic.
I agree a candidate for the root cause may not be the root cause in all situations, yet must have manifested a lot to be designated as one. I can understand the symbolic connection in your example to the question that I asked but you may also know that there is always a point to start with. A discourse, be it political, intellectual or academic always finds its way unless the intention is to make it happen.
I agree fear should not be “root cause” for every immorality, neither did I say that yet it is one of the reasons that I wanted to discuss.
I liked “misplaced fear and imbalance wisdom” though I can argue that wisdom cannot be imbalanced, if it is then it is not wisdom because wisdom is what balances the imbalance, yet a self proclamation does not make one wise.