Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
What I found really funny was how he tried to poke fun at Bush when asked to step down for his comments. It seems like bashing Bush is a predefined job security for Mullahs.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a “meat” responsible for her own rape?
mr fraudia, i know it was a tad long, but did you read all of my reply?
yes I did, and i found it flawed.
**firstly, the example of nice houses and shanty houses does not give, for one, because that would be talking about nice clothing, and horrible clothing. something that doesnt come up in the eyes of a rapist. **
If the nice house versus shanty house is not a good example the house with an open window versus not is also not a good example. Your are still laying the blame on the victim,
and you know what.. using your own example, when a burgular gets captured and gets chitrol at the police station, and then sentenced by the judge, no sane lawyer in the world would have a defense of, “but mi lord, this house had an open window .. it ignited the burgular’s greed, thus be lenient on him” similarly no matter what the girl is wearing, does not make her responsible for the criminal act of someone.
as I have pointd out before, so arab men in KSA who are used to seeing women in batman gear around them, when they go to a country like indonesia, and see some girl in hijab and a skirt and top, to them she is way too forward…now is it her fault in anyways?
**also the example of cats and meat was sickening to say the least but what i dont get is this, he asked his audience if meat is left outside and a cat eats it, whose fault is it, the cats or the meats? and audience replies, ‘the meats’. Like wha? 
**
he was pandering to his audience, he was appeasing them. The fact that they replied the meats shows the ingrained jahalat among many of us. Its that type of mentality that
**and then to justify it, he said he was taking about prostitues, **
u know he was lying, its obvious, he can bac peddle all he wants, but he knows what he said, and the context, especially bringing in reference to tough judge and to jail.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a “meat” responsible for her own rape?
yep for such idiot mullahs. I mean I would say that they should focus less on politics and more on spiritual guidance to ppl, but knowing thir mentality i think the latter would be more destructive. they should be taken out of their positions as imams
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Acquaintance rapes as mentioned by my friend above mostly start with lust, The person usually tries the normal friendship tactics, if the girl becomes a partner, well and good otherwise the ego of the person is hurt on rejection and than he goes on to revenge and domination phase. at that time he does not care about sex or pleasure, rather it becomes an ego problem. it is seldom that the rape is the first act of drama.
while this may be the case in some wierd cases! b/c psychos come in all kinds of shapes. but please let there be no confusion....that just b/c a girl rejects a guy that means she will be raped by him and thus brings it on!!! guys need to get a clue.
a lot of guys who rape women do not try and befriend them first!!! they just rape! there is no lets see if she will be my wife or whatever!
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Mr fraudia, If you'd read my reply, you wouldnt be asking such questions. Hence why i asked you to read it again. Re-read my quotes from my original post below.
read this part again:
[quote]
Now not carrying an umbrella or a weapon such as a spray might make you more vulnerable to attacks, but thats about it. It does not make you responsible. Theres a difference between the two, a long as folks blame the vulnerable person, it is likely they are projecting the culprits own responsibilty onto the victim. a key mindset for an abuser.
heres another example that you've prolly heard of, a house that has a window open, will definately attract a thief more so then a house that has full cctv security system right? but should the thief get in and burgle the house, sure the owner was naive or careless to leave the window open, but thats about it. they [the owner] are not responsible in the eyes of law!
**
** the thief and only the thief will be held responsible. Now dont blast me for comparing women to houses, but the similar example definately applies. whatever the reason, no doubt half clothed women are more vulnerable, but that doesnt mean they are responsible for the unwanted action of someone else. Nor does it mean that fully clad women are not vulnerable either, perhaps not to the same extent, but they definately can be a target depending on how determined the attacker is.
[/quote]
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
The questions were not for you, but more rhetorical and for readers in general who would try and draw other conclusions based on the examples given.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
its not only the islamic mufti or a wide range of muslims that believe that, as pyaricgudiya stated that its a theory accepted by many n.a. and westerners. In my sociology class in canada and popular culture class, we also discuss many theories which claim that its the women's fault.
in a way i do understand him (not necessarily agree) (his example of the cat is kind of weird...men as cats or woman as meat...like wtf?) when women reveal their body parts--it can be an incentive for men...--women are an attractive species...and some women do expose themselves as sex objects with the way they dress which does lure men--and thus create incentives to rape etc...
but also men are to blame as well--can't they just control it--and like i know this may be haraam--but why did God create them like that??..(astagfiruallah) but seriously its sick with the way guys think...like control your urges seriously lol
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
discussing theories in a class setting is one thing and stating it as some truth to make excuses for some criminals by a supposed religious leader for a prayer congregation is an entirely different thing.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
in a way i do understand him (not necessarily agree) (his example of the cat is kind of weird...men as cats or woman as meat...like wtf?) when women reveal their body parts--it can be an incentive for men...--women are an attractive species...and some women do expose themselves as sex objects with the way they dress which does lure men--and thus create incentives to rape etc...
but also men are to blame as well--can't they just control it--and like i know this may be haraam--but why did God create them like that??..(astagfiruallah) but seriously its sick with the way guys think...like control your urges seriously lol
again, i think you are not able to seperate sexual urges with desire to control! rape is about the need to control, its a crime of aggression not passion.
the reason why men rape women is not b/c they are sexually attracted to them, but b/c they think they can/ desire to control them, over power them posses them whatever! lots of women in the US on the beaches walk around half naked, u dont see desi guys attempting to rape them. sometimes the lil girls etc that do get raped, are quite modestly dressed!
again its really not about controlling your lusts..men are quite capable of that, if that were not the case women on beaches would be consistently attacked. so believe me ..men are quite capable of controlling thier urges!
rape is a crime of aggression! its about men who are insecure and feel the need to overpower someone....its somewhat hte same as men who beat women. its about the fact that for whatever reason they wer deprived mentally and thus feel inadequate or whatever and feel the need to overpower.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
The way things are going and how everyone is coming up with their own interpretations of Islam, some of which are highly destructive...
People with such destructive mentality should not just be taken out of their positions as Imams, but some serious punishment should be considered, like jail time. Or psychotherapy. Whatever. Anything to get these people to stop influencing others.
I would think that spreading lies about Islam and misconceptions about it would be a serious crime, because one is essentially putting words in God's mouth. Granted, this guy spoke out in Australia, so he couldn't be tried under Islamic law. But nonetheless, dangerous speakers like this need to just be jailed.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
a lot of guys who rape women do not try and befriend them first!!! they just rape! there is no lets see if she will be my wife or whatever!
no farwah, you are missing the point i was trying to convey in the quote, may be i did not use clear enough language
i meant that in acquaintance rape cases, usually the person wooes the girl to come to bed before going on his final act. not as wife or etc but trying to have fun with no questions asked. some stop at failure but some egoistic people take this approach. this is strictly with this type of rape.
In Pakistan the type of rapes which are prevalent in western world are less, the street type rapes where you might be raped on the side of street. we mostly have rapes of this acquaintance type because this is the only place you get a chance to be closer to the victim to develop the lust.
No doubt that modest dressing may be one reason we have lesser number of this street type rapes (if someone say that these cannot be reported in Pakistan he is at fault, a girl raped in a park or a dark alley cannot hide herself, every tom, dick and harry will talk about her, she does not go to police for the fear of hudoon ordnance, may be but newspapers will get the smell).
women should try to be modestly dressed, no question about it. You just do not want to overpower a girl whom you do not know beforehand may be whetever dress she is wearing. The issue starts from lust and goes on to ego etc etc
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a “meat” responsible for her own rape?
Farwah, what are your comments on works of Camille Paglia, she says that you cannot blame man entirely for the rape, though she does not give this meat example but has much more sophisticated lexicon to use.
“that victim-blaming should not be totally dismissed in all cases, because some sociobiological models suggest that it may be genetically-inbuilt for a certain proportion of men and women to act in ways that would tend to raise the chances of rape occurring, and that this may be a biological feature of the species”
no doubt starting point in almost all types of rapes Types of rape - Wikipedia
except gang rape (which may be ego based or revenge based) is LUST, but the ending in statutory rapes is generally domination and rejection etc. definitely being modestly dressed up will help a girl in avoiding it.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a “meat” responsible for her own rape?
you are totally wrong mazhar, i understand that you want to encourage women to dress modestly perhaps even islamically but please dont use rape as a fear to get women to do that. Additionally, instead of making up your own rules about what rape is about please read up on teh issue, and i mean some serious articles on the issue not wikipidea.. send me an emai and i am sure i can do a simple research and find you some good arcitles.
as for what i think of camile paglia, its the whole nature vs. nurture debate … there are a lot for socio-psychologist/ psych-socialists/ social-philozophers. whatever who argue that who people are is because of thier genes, its innate etc. they say things like the reason why criminals do crime, murderers murder, child molestors molest, etc is b/c they have tendencies to do that. Others on the flip side (the nurture ppl) they say that the reason why criminals do crime etc is b/c of the environment they grew up in made them that way. I lean towards the nuture side of it, perhaps b/c i studied social sciences and not medical/ biological sciences. In any event, the point is i disagree with her - not on the point of we should not dismiss victim-blaming ( i agree with her on that) but just b/c i think its the environment that probably plays more of a factor in rapists and rape victims actions then their genes.
In any event, i do agree that victim-blaming should not be completely dismissed. Studies have shown that women whose mothers were abused are more likely to be abused…so if you grew up in a houehold where your mother was beaten for whatever reason women like that have tendencies to become like thier mothers and i guess find husbands who will also beat them. So the point being that the victim (i.e the women beaten) is not completely not to blame as the reason why they are being victimized (i.e. beaten) has something to do with them the victim. I guess a similar argument could be made for rape victims…that we should perhaps not completely dismiss the victim of rape in the same way as we would a victim of abuse.
At no point does this pagila women suggest that those actions she is talking about has to do with being dressed a certain way, infact if anything it probably has something to do with attitude, being passive/ aggressive etc. But again nothing to do with clothes.
I dont know if you are a man or a woman, but seriously ask the guys around you, would they rape a women, lets say thier boss/ a congressional representative or female activist lawyer (hell bent on sending every rapist to jail forver) ask your guy friends if they saw these women in tiny little clothes, if they would consider raping them!! you maybe surprised to find that they will not! Lust does not have anything to do with rape. Only if a guy has psychological issues…to do with power and control then and only then will prhaps his lust become rape - but lust is not needed, its not a first step to rape!!! it can be present, but so can disgust of the women, so can the modesty of the women, whatever! lots of fctors can be present…but like lust they are not necessary!!!
SO again LUST!!! does not lead to rape!!! RAPE IS A CRIME OF AGGRESSION (wanting to impose yourself/ over power yourself on someone) NOT OF PASSION (o i think she is so hot i am gonna rape her). You dont see the ans of victoria secret models saying to themselves, i think she is sooo hot i wanna rape her!!! i mean really!!!
oh and by the way if you are a guy who does think this way (uh hmm..mahz), that is when you look at a girl you think is “hot” you suddenly want to rape her - then there maybe something wrong with you…maybe you have been rejected one to many times, or slapped around by your mom, i dont know…but if you are a guy who thinks this way…just realize you are wierd..others dont think this way, there maybe something very wrong with you! you need help!!!
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a “meat” responsible for her own rape?
again this comment also goes to show your lack of knowledge on the issue..if you are going to debate about it, please atleast read up on it!!!
just b/c YOU thinkn women should dress modestly, doesnt mean you impose it on them through fear of rape! there are plently of benefits to dressing modestly, and i am sure one does not need to fear rape to make that choice to do so!!! secondly its a womens personal choice to dress as she wants, you cant force them…women dont wak around telling men they need to wear a cap thing on their head, or grow more facial hair, we dont have such discussions, so relly perhaps the discussion of what we or I should wear should be my personal choice. My modesty is my bussiness!
As for this comment of yours about western and pakistani society!! UMMM…actually in western societies as well as pakistani society (apparently) most men who rape know thier victims! so here in the US atleast, women are more likely to be raped by ppl they know then strangers!
For women this is a very sensitive topic to discuss! i think hat should be borne in mind! i think its utterly disgusting and disrespectful to turn around and tell the women who was raped that it may have something to do with the fact that she not wear her hijab tight enough, when really that had nothing to do with it!!! so stop bein stupid!!!
if you want women to wear a hijab, cover thier faces, and thier fingers and toes..please by all means advocate your cause, i am not opposed to it! i just think its ignorant, retarded clearly an ill-educted perspective when people use rape as a fear to advocate the wearing of hijab! its wrong because its offensive to the women who have been raped! When all studies show that it had nothing to do with what they wore, and had everything to do with the fact that the guy was psychologically off!!! or just an evil spirited person who needed to get high knowing that he could do whatever to whomever! already as is, studies show that women feel guilty when they are victimized, so jahils/ morons who walk around enforcing that invalid belief should really think twice!! OR atleast PLEASE do some research on the issue before mouthing off like you know!!!
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Lahor!! i am shocked! with all due apologies i have to say.... i am completely shocked at this position of yours on this issue!!! you support this imam...in a culture where are women are told they are inferior made to feel that way, and told they are guilty for thier own rape!!!!!! you support this imam!!
Its not one-eyed view! our sisters in pakistan that are raped no doubt would not want some ignorant MAN!!!!! w/out a clue walking around saying its thier fault!
the iman needs to read up! not make up science!!!!!!!! just b/c he said so doesnt make it so!!!!
and please dont tell me that the first thing that goes through your head when you see a half-clad women is ...oh i think i want to rape her!!! thats generally not a common reaction by men. In fact i am sure most men will either think she is hot and want to sleep with her, or think she is vulgar and want nothing to do with her!!! in either event, the thought of rape is defintely a minority!!! and psychologists!!!!!! yea doctors!!!!!! with big PHD's!!!! so yea its not a "one-eyed" western view its called science!!!
OH and just because you say somethng like....rape is illegal does nto make you the champion of women's rights!!!!!!!!! when u say rape is a womens fault and say it inspite of the fact that you did not bother to research and know nothing of the issue...then you sir are no champion of anyones rights!!!! you are as ignorant as those guys who whistle at women!!!!
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
lahore,
elaborate your stand here, some more, please or kindly correct mine.
is a woman's forced or marital rape not a rape?
if a naked man walks in front of women in a market center, are they supposed to rape him, merely because he is walking in front of us & poses a stimulus to their wanton eroticism??
i agree with u and also everyone, who is right minded knows, that proper clothing is necessary for both women and men.
& how can we explain the Cairo mass madness when veiled and non veiled women have recently been chased around and fondled with?
i think, it 'ought' not to be so.
so, why do men have this license to rape women simply because they have repressed sexuality?
aren't women asked and expected to be repressed as well, in societies where relatively both genders are tabooed from sexual promiscuities?
& finally, who are we to judge anyone, when even Allah pardons?
i even agree with you that western societies, have indeed very little shame, that we need to denounce immorality here and in the more moral societies, but there has to be a better way, then free-willy calling cheapening names to people.
the simile which this ignorant imam is as anti-women as it can get.
while calling women pieces of meat, perhaps he forgets, he is that himself & his mom and his dad were a piece of meat too, from his view point then.
there are other better and more decent ways to call attention to shamelessness, where is his piety now, in addressing someone?
i wish that men and women realized personal self respect, but they cannot because some of them, today, are too busy with their personal agendas to be filled.
to be able to make a difference, this same imam could say that women and men should discuss this, as a human challenge, rather than blame all women for the in dignifying errors that some men commit.
dushi
I support the Imam COMPLETLY for his claim that dressing bad provokes such actions and hence modest dresses shud be encouraged....
In addition, I completely agree with armughals point of view and detest all the "one eyed" western view of rape propagated here.
There is no legality of rape be it "forced" or " with consent"........ end of story.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
in a way i do understand him (not necessarily agree) (his example of the cat is kind of weird...men as cats or woman as meat...like wtf?) when women reveal their body parts--it can be an incentive for men...--women are an attractive species...and some women do expose themselves as sex objects with the way they dress which does lure men--and thus create incentives to rape etc...
but also men are to blame as well--can't they just control it--and like i know this may be haraam--but why did God create them like that??..(astagfiruallah) but seriously its sick with the way guys think...like control your urges seriously lol
yea i recall discussions in my womens rights classes about theories where women are blamed.....we generally discussed t in a negative light!!! i am curious this class of yours in canada, were people supporting these theories that its the womens fault!!
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
it has to do with ethics also.
maybe there is a converging of too many points in the back of the mind, and that is why, this came out to sound like as if the blame is being completely lumped on women.
not all men are bad, or so i hope, at least.
dushi
Its not one-eyed view! our sisters in pakistan that are raped no doubt would not want some ignorant MAN!!!!! w/out a clue walking around saying its thier fault!
the iman needs to read up! not make up science!!!!!!!! just b/c he said so doesnt make it so!!!!
and please dont tell me that the first thing that goes through your head when you see a half-clad women is ...oh i think i want to rape her!!! thats generally not a common reaction by men. In fact i am sure most men will either think she is hot and want to sleep with her, or think she is vulgar and want nothing to do with her!!! in either event, the thought of rape is defintely a minority!!! and psychologists!!!!!! yea doctors!!!!!! with big PHD's!!!! so yea its not a "one-eyed" western view its called science!!!
OH and just because you say somethng like....rape is illegal does nto make you the champion of women's rights!!!!!!!!! when u say rape is a womens fault and say it inspite of the fact that you did not bother to research and know nothing of the issue...then you sir are no champion of anyones rights!!!! you are as ignorant as those guys who whistle at women!!!!
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Ok farwah i agree with what you have said, may be my reading were not that good, any way i am not a social scientist but i was just speculating.
you are right that rape should not be used as a threat for women to dress modestly, may be you got again my message wrong (may be my choice of words is to blame for it). i personally believe that anyhing short of open intercourse cannot be checked by the state, people have to lower thier own gaze and that's all. State has no business in it. It is a perfectly valid Islamic point as well, no where state has been commanded to act against the women who wear immodestly, only women have been advised to dress modestly but the consequences of not obeying are not there in this world but afterlife.
my speculation of LUST as a reason, i said before but probably in anger you never read it, i stated that
"i meant that in acquaintance rape cases, usually the person wooes the girl to come to bed before going on his final act. not as wife or etc but trying to have fun with no questions asked. some stop at failure but some egoistic people take this approach. this is strictly with this type of rape"
may be you use the word psychologically disturbed than egoistic, but i think so, how ever you should send me the links, i would love to learn more.
The world is a totally random place so a bikini clad girl may encounter a person who is not so disturbed and might not attempt anything beyond friendship but a burq clad women may encounter what we call a psychologically disturbed person, so statistics never tell the complete story, we have no way of telling that how many modestly dresses women encountered how many psychologically disturbed men and find statistics that modestly dressed women are equally liable to be raped as bikini clad. so and so. i never mean to say that this threat should be used, you took me completely wrong after getting infuriated but i was just saying that it may or may not help, at least statistics are no proof that they have no link
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
i stand corrected farwah, this LUST theory was typically my own and i have checked that main stream psychology does not accept it. i have to trust social scientists because i have no training in it.
actually i got carried away with the ayat of modest dressing, however the ayat is not about rape but teasing. teasing according to psychology is not a disorder but a sign of maturity and may be linked with dressing. Rape you are right is about more of emanating signals of shyness and underconfidence than dress. dress probably has no connection with rape so far in all the studies