Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a “meat” responsible for her own rape?
Not quite correct, ppl have used tactics such as getting someone drunk, or even drugging them.. you know the date rape drug…and then you have situations..cases in Pakistan where the proximity is used to take advantage. I personally know of one girl who was visitign pakistan, (btw a very sensible person and a hijabi as well) and at her relatives place the family servant assualted her, threatened her, she was able to fight him off, and when it was brought to the attention of the hosts they not only refused to believe it but suggested that she may have lured the guy. her family packed up promptly and moved to Holiday Inn. I know another girl whose own mamoo (uncle) attacked her, while both she and him were at another uncle’s place…again she was able to fight off..the guy attempted this late night and there were other ppl in the house, I guess he figured she would be scared and not do anything, she started fighting and screaming…and guess what, she was labeleld as bad for entcing her uncle.
There are sick sick ppl in the world, and some of them prey upon kids and teens etc. There is no enticing involved and its not that they end up in bed together or whatever, we are talking assault. Pakistan is not the only place it happens. One of my Indian pals had gone to visit family in India and a neighbour assaulted her but could not succeed because someone showed up outta the blue.
None of these girls are/were promiscuous or anything, and in each and every case they were blamed to be at minimum partially responsible. Oh yeah the neighbour claimed that she threatened him with a knife and what nots…which was the exact opposite of what was going on
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Even if a girl teases someone, that doesn't give a guy the right to rape her. If you accept a male doesn't have the RIGHT to rape a female if she teases him, then you are subsequently admitting that the rape is not her responsibility.
There is NO EXCUSE for a rape. Its a sick, pathetic crime, and usually indicates there is something psychologically wrong with the male who committed the rape. A rapist wont necessarily go after someone who is teasing him or he finds attractive. If anything , the pattern usually is that these guys go after females who are weak and probably wont fight back much. I doubt a prostitute is more likely to get raped because of how she dresses, but because a rapist mentality figures he'll probably have an easier time luring her in than a female who is much more mentally strong and could very well fight back and find a way to escape and get his butt arrested. Same thing with a girl who teases. Its probably easier to get the victim to play along with the plan initially before he actually rapes her. ex. he could flirt with her, and she'll probably flirt back, and hence makes it easier to rape her.
I don't know. Its just a theory I'm throwing out that makes some sense to me.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Its good to see you getting a shock.
Unfortunately, I do not condome any activity leading to or acting as a sitmulus towards this crime. My approach is different that yours in this regard.
It is even a bigger shock for me to see you ignoring the point in my reply.
Emotionality does not lead to any productive effort. Stop attacking the "men part" of the society and start looking at the the matter "bilaterally", if you are to come to a useful solution rather than making it a fight of one gender against the other to achieve justice. Isolating men or making them look like a **** is only gonna weaken your efforts to bring any justice to this society.
I have clearly outlined why I support this Imaam, because to me he is pointing at "one of the factors" leading to rape. If you still are confused, then I have nothing more to say. I am not pointing at any specific society while writting my reply (as you have assumed on your part). Do not automtically displace my reply to any particular society on your own.
I also disagree with you if you hold a point of view about men having this inherent instinct to rape, the don't. I keep into account the biological functioning, psychological response patterns and a broader look into this issue from the sociological aspects as they relate to a whole society. If men can abuse women physically, women have other ways to torture and abuse men. Stop presenting women the "universal oppressed" and men the "universal oppressors"
I feal it is unjust and completely prepostrous not to look at the root causes of rape.
You'd make a stronger argument with me if you were to discuss the faults in the upbringing of men and women in our society, the lack of developing consious awareness in bringing up the boys and girls in a society, the dysfunctional families where such kids grow up leading to a dysfunctional and psycholigically imbalanced personalities.
You'd make a stronger argument against me if you were to talk about why in our homes is is descrepent treatment of boys and girls and what kind of thoughts are infused in their minds at that level.
Discuss with me where boys are not given the thinking about the women and their sacfifising nature. Discuss how this leads to a superiority complex in the minds of boys that women are inferior.
If you call men physical rapists of women, I call women the psychological and emotional rapists of women. Why women look for "the most beautiful girl" for their sons? Why don't they teach them respect and even handedness? Why women look for younger girls and why they infuse in their minds these thoughts? Don't these attitudes lead to "superiority complex" in men?
These are just a few points I have out of those many whic I cannot cover right now.
It is not simply men committing rape and abuse of women. Things are much more broader for me.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Unfortunately, I do not condome any activity leading to or acting as a sitmulus towards this crime. My approach is different that yours in this regard.
It is even a bigger shock for me to see you ignoring the point in my reply.
Emotionality does not lead to any productive effort. Stop attacking the "men part" of the society and start looking at the the matter "bilaterally", if you are to come to a useful solution rather than making it a fight of one gender against the other to achieve justice. Isolating men or making them look like a **** is only gonna weaken your efforts to bring any justice to this society."
***I have to break your argument down into pieces lahore! I dont believe in letting my emotions guide my actions! its always my mind in the drivers seat and my emotions are merely the firey engines that make my car go faster...but its completely in the direction where my mind wants it to go!
Women's rights are actually not a struggle that i contribute to much, other issues take priority! generally i dont see the world as women vs. men! Could you kindly quote where in any of my responses you found me saying that all men are bad or this issue is men vs. women!
Infact the point i was making has nothing! to do with women vs. men! but rather i am taking odds with the general perspective (shared by men and women alike) that LUST!! is what leads to rape. the reason why i am so adamant about this issue is b/c this view that LUST leads to RAPE ultimately lends to the women being blamed for what happens.
Thus I am not isolating men, on the contrary i think its very important that men (as well as women) both recognize that its not the women's fault! that lust does not lead to rape!
Secondly, what i am also taking odds is the fact that this particular imam that you support, not only does he say that lust leads to rape (hence blaming the women raped for the crime) he also is using rape as fear to get women to dress modestly. this schpeel of his' was about how women should dress modestly in accordance with islam...b/c otherwise, he suggests, they will be raped! i dont think rape should be used as a fear to get women to wear hijab etc!
now u said something like u completly support his imam! thats why i took odds with what you said, after being shocked!
whats ironic to me is that while u encourage me to not make this a women vs. men thing, you completely fail to see that this imam's statement does precisely that. he is making women the victims (the meat) and men the evil doers (the ones who lust! and this rape) Lust to me in our society is fairly normal reaction, ....not a good one, but i wouldnt call a man who looks lustly at a victoria secret model evil, i would say he is perhaps misguided and lacks self-discipline, but i would not say he is evil, as that is the kind of reaction those models wish to provoke, so the man is not evil! However a rapist is evil and there is nothing normal about such a man! thus putting a rapist in the same boat as a man who lusts...do u see how this imam is making all men evil?!!
I have clearly outlined why I support this Imaam, because to me he is pointing at "one of the factors" leading to rape. If you still are confused, then I have nothing more to say. I am not pointing at any specific society while writting my reply (as you have assumed on your part). Do not automtically displace my reply to any particular society on your own.
***Lahor! that one factor that he is pointing to...has lead to our society blaming the women for the rape! that one factoris very deadly factor my friend! I am not blaming you for not knowing about this issue, i dont expect everyone to know everything...but i do think that in supproting this perspective that women that dress a certain way invite men to rape them..you are really contributing to a much larger injustice in our society. It allows men to escape guilt b/c well...its not thier fault they were seduced by this women, and it blames the women...often times fairly young and passive women!
You said and i quoted "this one-eyed western view" or something like that! this one-eyed view that you advised ppl to be weary of basically. Well all i was saying was that this view that LUST DOES NOT LEAD TO RAPE...is not a view specific to the west! i was saying that the eastern and western socio-psychs agree that its not the womens fault and she should not be blamed, and so its not one-eyed western view but rather an opinion/ theory shared by both east and west.
I also disagree with you if you hold a point of view about men having this inherent instinct to rape, the don't. I keep into account the biological functioning, psychological response patterns and a broader look into this issue from the sociological aspects as they relate to a whole society. If men can abuse women physically, women have other ways to torture and abuse men. Stop presenting women the "universal oppressed" and men the "universal oppressors"
***O! come on lahor! u read what i wrote!!! i said consistently!! in fact it was one of my bigger arguments!!! that men do not have an instict to rape! that in fact this instinct to rape is very abnormal!!!!!
I think you are making this into a men vs. women issue! really i am not!!! infact if it were not for convenience i would just say ppl who rape vs. victims! and ppl who rape should not be given the excuse of uncontrollable lust brought on by the victim who is blamed for dressing imodestly! (but is far more convenient to put genders..."men" is much shorter then "ppl who lust")
you just made it men vs. women by saying ...if men abuse women physically...then women have other ways to torture men!....are u saying here by the way...on a seperate note that men beating a women is fine b/c she can abuse him in other ways?!!!! i hope not! but thats going off topic! lets not discuss that!
I feal it is unjust and completely prepostrous not to look at the root causes of rape.
**what do u think is the root cause of rape?! do u think that the root cause of rape is women who dress immodestly!!! b/c thats what this imam is saying! **
You'd make a stronger argument with me if you were to discuss the faults in the upbringing of men and women in our society, the lack of developing consious awareness in bringing up the boys and girls in a society, the dysfunctional families where such kids grow up leading to a dysfunctional and psycholigically imbalanced personalities.
***while this maybe true....again!!! this is not women vs. men ( i very rarely see the world in VS!!!! my friends will tell u...i am severely quite passionately oppsed to seeing the world in anyone vs. anything!!!
In this thread the issue was!!!! if women's dressing leads to rape!!! and i am quite vehemently saying that it does not!!!!!!! women have walked around buck naked on the city streets in US! to make a political statement, they have been arested for it and not raped at all! so this theory that if u walk around naked/ half-naked then u will necessarily be raped is ...pardon my french... BULLL ****TT!!!
You'd make a stronger argument against me if you were to talk about why in our homes is is descrepent treatment of boys and girls and what kind of thoughts are infused in their minds at that level.
Discuss with me where boys are not given the thinking about the women and their sacfifising nature. Discuss how this leads to a superiority complex in the minds of boys that women are inferior.
**OKAY again....while perhaps valid points in another forum! here in this thread which is about!!! if the thinking that women are raped b/c they dress a certain way is okay!!! in this thread, this argument of yours is one irrelevant, and 2 comes off seeming like you are trying to evade responding to the issue! **
If you call men physical rapists of women, I call women the psychological and emotional rapists of women. Why women look for "the most beautiful girl" for their sons? Why don't they teach them respect and even handedness? Why women look for younger girls and why they infuse in their minds these thoughts? Don't these attitudes lead to "superiority complex" in men?
**I really think you should quit while you are still ahead! b/c here again you are just digging yourself deeper into a ditch!! I did not say nor did i in any way suggest (dont know where u got this from) that men are generally all rapists of women! I am not calling all men physicial rapists of women! you really need to tke the advice you are giving me and stop making this a men vs. women issue! While this would be a good discussion to have on the general topic of why women get raped, its really quite irrelevant here. not to mention (and the reason why i said you are digging yourself in even deeper) it appears you are blaming the women yet again (though in a more round about way) for the rape of women in general! ..really maybe you ought not go there! **
These are just a few points I have out of those many whic I cannot cover right now.
It is not simply men committing rape and abuse of women. Things are much more broader for me.
Your case becomes very weak.
O! but u have not even addressed my case, you have just convuluted the issue by bringing in more broader irrelevant issues in a discussion about a very sensitive and specific (very specific) topic!! which was...ahh...well you can just read my remarks above with all the !!!..which incidently does not mean i am angry ...i just habitually overuse exclamation marks (!)
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Again I am sorry to see that you failed to understand my point in the first place and onwards, very evident in your replies. More than that, it appears you don't want to understand. And this is quite irritating and disappointing to me.
I don't need to write any clarification as my point is still very valid and CLEAR. You are free to make any opinion about me on your own. Keep writting whatever you want. Go ahead ....
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
Hi
I have read most of the comments and arguments in this thread and think that we all need to be open minded it is not gender stuff that men should support men and women should support women be honest on the subject as it is difficult to distinguish whose fault is or who to blame. It is very important aspect of life and don't mix eastern and westerns together as they are different pople with different cultures, values and mentalities altough rapist might have same mentality but upbringing also does matter.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
and please dont tell me that the first thing that goes through your head when you see a half-clad women is ...oh i think i want to rape her!!! thats generally not a common reaction by men. In fact i am sure most men will either think she is hot and want to sleep with her, or think she is vulgar and want nothing to do with her!!! in either event, the thought of rape is defintely a minority!!! and psychologists!!!!!! yea doctors!!!!!! with big PHD's!!!! so yea its not a "one-eyed" western view its called science!!!
Agreed, i think in the same manner,
However, i posed the same question to a lot of people i came across after my last post and all males said that well immodestly dressed women may incite or arouse some one to commit something as serious as rape. once i asked you think like this he said no but he expects that other men might do so. almost out of 30 men i asked i did not find a person who said that he thinks so (including me) but all said that others might.
why is it like that? if my select group was small and does not represent majority, may be. however can any psychologist shed light on it, why we do not think like this but think that others might think like this.
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
However, i posed the same question to a lot of people i came across after my last post and all males said that well immodestly dressed women may incite or arouse some one to commit something as serious as rape. once i asked you think like this he said no but he expects that other men might do so. almost out of 30 men i asked i did not find a person who said that he thinks so (including me) but all said that others might.
why is it like that? if my select group was small and does not represent majority, may be. however can any psychologist shed light on it, why we do not think like this but think that others might think like this.
Mazahar you raise a good point, i think its b/c our society (both east and west) tells both men and women that. therefore both men and women believe that a scantily dressed women would lead a man to commit rape. its b/c our societies tell us all that. so therefore, men who are told this will tell u this also...that a scantily dressed women will incite a man to rape them, b/c thats what our society is teaching them.
If you had asked women, i would not be surprised if you found most of them said the same thing too. B/c women are taught the same by society. However, b/c we are women, some of us have the incentive to educate ourselves about women's rights issues, and we learn that perhaps this is not so...that since rape is a crime of agression and not passion, the rapist is not raping the women b/c she is pretty but b/c he wants to contol her etc.
I am not saying small clothes have no bearing they may have some bearing on a rapists decision, i suppose, but about as much as a hijab or burqa would.... ofcourse there are many reason any rapist would consider in making their decision, something obviously makes them pick one victim over another, and there are many factors that they could be considering.... i dont know what they are, but i dont doubt that scanty clothes is a factor for some of them, maybe loose clothes is a factor for another, or burqa b/c it might indicate a submissive women or a prey that will have a hard time running away maybe another factor. I dont know what the different factors are for rapists to pick one victim over another, but i dont think we can make this blanket statement that you are any safer if you are dressed more modestly, or that if you are scantily dressed you invite people to rape you!!!
If a man can flaunt his money ..his car...his porche...we say nothing about that, then why are we all...women and men..so filled with spite and hate when a women flaunts her assets!
We all are different we should not judge. If it helps, i actually prefer myself to dress modestly but thats my choice thats my comfort level. I don't know if its a choice that is right for all other women, i can list why i prefer it, but whatevr my reasons are, might not be good for other ppl. So i am not defending my lifestyle here...though even if i were my argument would not be any less forceful. I am just saying ppl should be entitled to do what they want, and we should not hate those different from us... i think its wrong for someone in NY to hate a women in a burqa, i think its just as wrong for someone in our community to hate a women who is wearing an ultra short skirt with a croped tank top!
we are only judged for our actions why do we need to impose our values on others! we are not judged for thier actions are we?
Re: Is a scantily dressed woman a "meat" responsible for her own rape?
i just hink its ridiculous that we are soooo willing to be illogical and unreasonable, and blind just b/c we want to push the idea that women should be dressed modestly or that women dressed modestly are better, or that the idea that women are immodest is wrong and leads to rape!!!! or that our values of women in modest clothes are better then other peoples values of women in immodest clothes b/c oh look those owmen get raped...even when we see things like mukhtara mai type stores coming out of our culture!
i am just saying dont be ignorant and blind on purpose!! it does nto make you any more muslim or patriotic, on the contrary you do yourself, your religion and your country a diservice by opting to remain blind!!