[quote=“Nussairee, post:6, topic:206932”]
And i dont disagree that Iran supported groups…
[
But unfortunately those groups were found involved in several terrorist activities, which in turn put some strain on Pak-Iran relations.](“http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EB27Df09.html”)
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
^Marasi brother.....read my last two post with care......
Sipha e Mohammad was formed as a reactionary force by the Shias to counter the crimes that were being committed by the Wahabhis against both Shias and the Sunnis.........the objective was to protect the mosques/high targets from the attacks..........could you plz show me any suicide bombing or a mosque bombing carried out by Sipha e Mohammad?
Nussairee!
I don't know if you are from Pakistan. That's besides the point though.
The reality is that Imam Khomeni's revolution resulted in the "export of Shia militancy" to many many countries including Pakistan.
Many terror organizations in Pakistan start off as "student organizations" and then some of their members become full fledged militants. Examples include both secular and religious organizations including: JI-Sunni, ISO-Shia, PSF, QSF, APMSO etc.
However Shia brand had their militant organization loooong before Wahabi militant outfits came into being.
There was a Quetta incident back in 1980 where armed Shia militants fought pitched battles with police.
Over the years Shia organizations have suffered due to many reasons and declined in their effectiveness. Some of the reasons may have included: Smaller Shia population pool in Pakistan, and drastic decrease in funding due to economic decline of Iran.
Suicide bombing is a relatively recent phenomenon and Shia militants had already lost their influence before the start of this heinous thingy called suicide bombing.
Coming back to the topic.
The struggle in Seestan/Iranian Balochistan is "Iran's internal issue". Both the Balochis and the Iranian government have been going at each other in a very brutal way.
Much more brutal than how the Pak gov treats Balochis.
For starters.
Iranians have been conducting Lynching circus where they hang Balochi insurgents in public squares and the local population comes to see the tamasha.
Balochis have more political rights in Pakistani system (when the political system is not under military boots),
iranian-Baloch do not have fully fledged parliament at provincial level. Irania system is different. Pak-Baloch have many complaints about Pak, but at least their have their assembly, Chief Minsiter, and full provincial level cabinet.
Iranian-Balochis have seldom ranked to the level of president/prime minister. Pak-Balochis have Federal level representation (small in lower house), pretty decent in upper house.
Other knowledgeable people can correct me if I am wrong, but Iranians have not allowed Balochis the political freedoms.
I would agree that he has a right to be angry but totally disagree if he threatened to use terrorism to seek revenge
I wish tht u use the same rationale for the terrorist attack in Iran too which u blamed on the Iranian "internal policy failure"...........this attack targeted a meeting between the Shia and Sunni tribal leaders and indeed shows a lot abt the motives of the attacking force............
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I haven't been to Sistan Balochistan. But I do know that Iran has several low level insurgencies such as the one in Balochistan and in their north with the Azeri province and near the border with Iraq where the Mujahadeen al Haq are based.
The Balochi area may be developed but that doesnt mean there isnt discrimination.
In 1970's Pakistan and Iran jointly put down an insurgency by Balochis
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Jundullah and Mujhaideen e Khalq have one objective........both have different origins but the objective is to overthrow the revolutionary regime........and i am not denying there is discrimination against the Baluchis........even the Iranian president acnowledges it be the area that needs a lot of work on...........but what exactly is Jundullah's motive here and what are they fighting for?..........to a prosper and united Balochistan or something else?
Nussairee!
I don't know if you are from Pakistan. That's besides the point though.
no problem....i am from Pakistan...i live overseas now but lived and saw the sectarian violence up close.............lost 2 of my family members .....
[QUOTE]
The reality is that Imam Khomeni's revolution resulted in the "export of Shia militancy" to many many countries including Pakistan.
Many terror organizations in Pakistan start off as "student organizations" and then some of their members become full fledged militants. Examples include both secular and religious organizations including: JI-Sunni, ISO-Shia, PSF, QSF, APMSO etc.
However Shia brand had their militant organization loooong before Wahabi militant outfits came into being.
There was a Quetta incident back in 1980 where armed Shia militants fought pitched battles with police.
[/QUOTE]
Your comments are quite unfair..........Yes, Iranian revolution did trigger a massive response across many countries, specially in Pakistan where there is a big Shia population and culturally and geographically too we r quite close to Iran....... but blaming Iranian revolution for the spread of arms, sectarianism and hatred is far from the truth..........we all know where all that came from.....I do not need to go over the reasons as i expect a knowledgeable person like u must know......may i know where are you from?
Plz provide me some more details about the 1980's Quetta event that you ve mentioned.....
[QUOTE]
Over the years Shia organizations have suffered due to many reasons and declined in their effectiveness. Some of the reasons may have included: Smaller Shia population pool in Pakistan, and drastic decrease in funding due to economic decline of Iran.
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Smaller Shia population pool in Pakistan???
are you saying there is lesser Shia babies being born in recent decades?
Decrease in funding due to economic decline????
huge amount of money gets sent from Pakistan to Iran and Iraq........its mainly not the other war round!
The main reason for Shia decline is..... lack of good, quality leadership as many good leaders of the Shia community were assassinated (Arif Hussain Hussaini, Hasan Turabi) or left the country like Mohammad Bashir Najafi who is massively known and respected in Iraq but the Pakistani Shias hardly even know his name........
[quote]
Suicide bombing is a relatively recent phenomenon and Shia militants had already lost their influence before the start of this heinous thingy called suicide bombing.
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brother, according to some Western experts, Shias were the pioneers of the suicide attacks (re Lebanon)..........
it will never ever be used by the Shias in Pakistan as doctrinally its a big NONO for a Shia to commit a suicide (and kill an innocent) unless under extreme conditions of a defensive war........
Sipha e Mohammad was formed as a reactionary force by the Shias to counter the crimes that were being committed by the Wahabhis against both Shias and the Sunnis.........the objective was to protect the mosques/high targets from the attacks..........could you plz show me any suicide bombing or a mosque bombing carried out by Sipha e Mohammad?
Reaction was the justification used by the Lal masjid mulla for every thing he did. I agree they may have not been involved in suicide bombing or a mosque bombing but those are not the only methods of spreading terror and that the deeds of pro Saudi Wahabi groups far overshadow the pro Irani groups. I can sympathize with you losing family members to the terrorists of pro Saudi Wahabi groups and having a soft corner to rationalize every thing this group is supposed of have done. However, the description from the link I provided shows that this is/was not a group of angels either:
"Ghulam Raza Naqvi is the Saalar-i-Aala (chief) of SMP. A dreaded hitman, when arrested in 1996, the government had placed a reward of Rs 2 million for his alleged involvement in about 30 cases of murder and dacoity. He is now in prison. He is known for turning Thokar Niaz Beg, a village in the suburbs of Lahore, a no-go area for the police who failed in at least four attempts to break this Shia stronghold.
In 1996, a faction of the SMP cadres opposed their chief Maulana Yazdani for his conciliatory attitude towards the MYC, which to them amounted to a compromise on their faith and fundamental beliefs. The present Saalar-i-Aala ('commander') of the SMP Ghulam Raza Naqvi reportedly ordered the assassination of Maulana Yazdani, which was executed in September 1996. Another faction was formed under the leadership of Major (Retd.) Ashraf Ali Shah in 1996 and confronted Ghulam Naqvi’s group which led to internecine clashes.
Ghulam Naqvi, had, in 1996, ensured that the outfit had its headquarters, Thokar Niaz Beg, a village in Lahore, completely under their control and impossible for security agencies to penetrate. Following the factional clashes, the SMP commander was forced to flee and was later arrested by police in December 1996. The year also saw the broadening target base of sectarian terrorists with several bureaucrats being attacked and killed including the Commissioner of Sargodha and the Deputy Commissioner of Khanewal."
Several of their members are on the list of top terrorists of Police. The rhetoric of Shia groups is equally violent.
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
^i can neither deny or verify the info you have quoted above as I have never been on the Punjab side and have admittedly no knowledge abt it apart from what i have read on the net.......but i will not be surprised if what u have said is true because there are some highly radicalized Shia groups in Punjab........but their activities are of criminal nature more than terrorist activities employed by the takfiri groups......... otherwise it is not that difficult in a country like Pakistan to blow a mosque or bomb a market to create what we call today, terror!
I totally reject the notion that Shia groups create terror or Iran creates terror in Pakistan.........i have sat with the high profile ppl who have very close affiliation with Iran and they always urge for the unity, working within the framework of the law, protection, defense and patience........if u think i have a soft corner because of my personal grievances then i invite you to read the writings, fatwas and speeches of Shia scholars and personalities and verify urself ..........u will not be able to find a SINGLE fatwa by any Shia religious scholar, from anywhere the world, declaring takfir on anybody..............on the other hand u can find almost all the Wahabhi groups publicly stating complete annihilation of the Shia ppl by utilizing any means possible..........
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
So, you agree that there are pro Iranian groups with close association with Iran. Some of them have had criminal activities and have been in violent confrontation with the Sunni/Wahabi terrorist groups. They may, at present, avoid violence but Iran could convince them (or creat new groups) to adopt violent means again (to protect Shias in general and protect Iran from the terrorist attacks). That is not a too far fetched assumption then, no?
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
Ajju, the reality is so much complex than that as its always is.........Iran officially supports only TNFJ in Pakistan and does so officially..........their leader, Sajid Naqvi visits Iran on the regular basis and receives diplomats from Iran on the regular basis.........TNFJ's stance is very close to Jamat e Islami, which revolved around struggling for more Shia-Sunni unity, education, more Shia involvement in the mainstream political scene etc..........at best, a lot of us have a very simplistic view of things due to different limitations, and we automatically assume that any Shia group means iranian support..........thats not the case and u might be surprised to know that Punjabi Shia elements can be quite anti-Iran.......... in fact some of the Sunni groups like Jamaat e Islami, specially when it was under Maulana Maududi, operated very closely with the Iranian revolutionary regime.........
i am almost certain that Iran supports no other group in Pakistan........or there is no evidence that it does..........these criminal gangs or groups that u mentioned most probably operate at their own discreetion or are in some cases controlled by local powerful Shias.........for example many ppl allege that Faisal Saleh Hayat plays a strong role in controlling the bad boys of Siphae Mohammad........
what do you mean by "defend violently"!? How is it possible to defend oneself from a terrorist attack?........Pakistani Shias have gone through a very rough time already.........apart from Parachinar and a few odd bombings things ve been much better for them since the event of 9/11 and the whole crackdown on the Takfiri outfits......
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
When theocratic Mullas gripping this country from 1979 and when youth raised against this Mulliat and sided with Mosowi and Mullai saw that thier 20 years **‘Kingdom’ **is in danger , they killed thier own 70 people mostly university students. Did Pak also involve in it !
PS: Whats a big deal if they blame Pak for that and what they can do ! confused: So keep on blaming them .Who cares 
We have seen all this drama of Iran-Iraq war brought into our land by these Irani-Saudi-Iraqi funded organizations and ruined us. Giving all secret details of Pak nuke program to CIA and IAEA when these duffers failed to reprocess the uranium into bomb graded fuel of 99.9% even after 8 or 9 years when Pak provided them all necessary ‘information’ . Ridiculously , here on GS , Lovers of Iran go even 180 degree to support or justify Iran even when they have to go against thier own country.To all these people , if you have so much love for Iran , just fuc* off and leave Pakistan. In Pakistan even with 15% minority , the rights and luxuries you enjoy in all fields and compare with 30% sunni population of Iran who cannot even have thier own mosque and cannot reach any high offical seat and this depriviation of Sistan suuni majority areas is supporting these activities.Half of Pakistan PMs or Presidents were shias still you have so much ‘love’ for Iran !
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
^do you mean that the disgruntled and confused kids of North Tehran have right over the whole country? Actually, your thinking is so lame that it does not even deserve a proper response. Good bye!
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
Right over whole country .... huh !
The 'Mastooraat' **who cannot show few hairs from scatfs and lady police put them in armed cars like cattle in Tehran when have an opportunity to escape this 'psuedo islamic ghetto ' wear tight jeans with low necks showing thier curves. Should I post here some pics of Berkeley Irani Festival and what Hijabis **are doing there ! or any other university of US and UK . When you create 'synthetic islam' by force , reaction is similar but in opposite , what Chacha Newton said !
Orya Maqbool Jaan , Pakistan top most CSP officer,presently in Punjab Government remained in Iran for 15 years and used to write columns off and on that how his little daughter of 8 years was caught on Tehran Railway Station by police for weaing jeans and how Hijabis wear those clothes in which thier body parts are seen as a 'revenge' from society.Even that they have 2 Supreme Courts , one for common and other 'special' for Mullas as they are 'God Chosen' and succesor of 'Wilayat-e-Faqih' !
I know all this 'drama' of islamic society !
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
^^ U missed the Aids problem so-called religious Iran is having because of the Religious activity...
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
^^ Also hymen repairing operations ratio is very high
no problem....i am from Pakistan...i live overseas now but lived and saw the sectarian violence up close.............lost 2 of my family members .....
........
Truly sad to hear that. May Allah bless their souls and May allah make their sectarian killers burn in hell forever.
I have seen the discrimination against Shia and other minorities too. And that's why it is very very important for majority sect in Pak to stand up for the rights of our minorities.
Because if we don't do that, then we are behaving like Nazis. The same Nazis who stood by while their countrymen were slaughtered and persecuted. By very actions of ignoring the terror, we become the followers of Hitler and Yazid. Thus we must stand up with whatever power we have. We must at least speak against the persecution of Pak minorities.
.......Iranian revolution did trigger a massive response across many countries, specially in Pakistan where there is a big Shia population and culturally and geographically too we r quite close to Iran....
.....
Please see your words. It is time to do matam about Pakistani thought process.
As long we are "cultuarally and geographically" close to Iran/Saudi/Africa etc, we'll continue to discriminate and in some cases butcher our fellow Pakistanis.
If we have learned anything from the last few decades that Pak Shias/Sunnis must consider themselves "culturally and geographically" close to PAKISTAN.
We are Pakistanis and no longer closer culturally and geographically to anyone else.
............
Smaller Shia population pool in Pakistan???
are you saying there is lesser Shia babies being born in recent decades? Decrease in funding due to economic decline????
.......
Smaller percentage of Shias (compared to majority sect) means smaller pool. Hope that clarifies.
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
Burqaposh, I too abhor, like u, any foreigner ideology being shoved down our throats...........i think its unfair to blame Iran or revoloution for that as it was never the objective of the Islamic revolution that is so greatly misunderstood due to a lot of negative propaganda it has had from both the West and the Muslim kingdoms...........
i also think that our own culture is quite beautiful and presents quite a balanced view of the world...............its sad to see it being killed continuously for the past 30 years..........mainly a legacy of Gen Zia who caused a lot of other damage........
Burqaposh, I too abhor, like u, any foreigner ideology being shoved down our throats..................
Agreed. I'd just add that we as Pakistanis should at all costs
and obviously as you said!
.........i think its unfair to blame Iran or revoloution for that as it was never the objective of the Islamic revolution that is so greatly misunderstood due to a lot of negative propaganda it has had from both the West and the Muslim kingdoms.........
Perhaps we leave it upto Iranians to decide and defend their revolution.
As Pakistanis, we don't care if the revolution was Islamic or Iranian or whatever.
So far Many Shias have been defending Iranians, and many Sunnis have been defending Saudis. Not only that they defend Iranians/Saudis, in the process they offend fellow Pakistanis.
These defending/offending trends have deeply hurt Pakistan. The only thing really needed for us is to defend Pak. That's all.
If we can't defend Pak and Pakistanis, what good will it be to defend Iranian/Saudi revolutions or evolutions?
If Allah maaf kuray keh there is no Pak, I doubt Iranians/Saudis will open their arms/doors and accept 170 million Pakistanis.
Think about it.
.....................its sad to see it being killed continuously for the past 30 years..........mainly a legacy of Gen Zia who caused a lot of other damage........
Truly sad to see how Pakistani minorities including Shias, Ahmadis, Christians, and Hindus have been maltreated.
It is time for the majority religious sect in Pakistan to beg for and seek forgiveness from the minority religions.
Hopefully minorities too will quit being aligned to Iran/Saudi religions and become Pakistanis in every sense.
Re: Iran accuses pakistan of suicide attack
Burqaposh, i agree with ur sentiments 100% but i disagree with what u have identified as the core problem!
real problem is not Sunnis putting Saudia before their own country or Shias paying allegiance to Iran more than Pakistan............this is so far from the truth..............i dont know what evidence you are basing this opinion on! both Shias and Sunnis i have come across during my lifetime are Pakistani to the core and as loyal to their country as they come.........after all, it was their ancestors who gave their blood and soul for the creation of this country.......if they wudnt know its worth then who wud? was Maulana Maududi Saudi influenced? did Mufti Jaffar Hussain looked Irani from any angle? both leaders of the Sunni and Shia community were ur typical Pakistan loving leaders and struggled for nothing but good.......they were more Pakistani in every way than any of our political leadership back then until today.....
The real problem is the Takfiri groups, who reject the secular/liberal version of the state, with Islam as its essence, that Mohammad Ali Jinnah visioned for Pakistan..............these r the people who have no respect for our history, heritage, culture, and language..........they have no regard for the humanity let alone for Pakistan whose founder they call "Kaafir e Azam"........think abt it!
Burqaposh, i agree with ur sentiments 100%
!
Good thanks.
..............The real problem is the Takfiri groups, who reject the secular/liberal version of the state, with Islam as its essence,...!
We can dance around these words and terms forever.
Takfiri is not a new group. The whole terrorist soup in Pak these days is run by Saudi/gulf charities so obviously the funds go to a particular sect. And they reject secular vision of Pakistan.
Similarly Iranians have in the past funded Shia militant organizations. Similarly Iranian brand of Islam rejects secular vision of Pakistan.
Why because religious ideology imported from Iran or Saudi will never fit in Pakistan's multi-ethnic and multi-religious environment.
If we want to ignore all that, and make up some new term like Takfiri, we'd remain stuck in this sectarian mud .