Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
USR i dont wotn to put it down to the throat of others to believe what I have posted on top, i dont mind even if people dont read it its there wish.
Well i am extremely sorry if have corrupted you thread whole heartedly, but i cant for heaven sake take some stuff which is untrue and word of Allaah, i m not here trying to convert someone but when there is some false stuff in front ofme I just cant stop as in JD i will be questioned by Allaah.
I am not doing it for personal issues here, unlike others I am doing for the sake of Allaah.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
Sorry Gentlemen, I have been out vacationing. I have to read through the posts before I reply.
Just glancing over though I do see there is an innate tendency in this topic for being debatible. ARM and SlaveOfAllah I suggest lets open a separate thread for the debate part of this, a sister debate thread. I will Inshallah be there to participate as well.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
I have provided you one, Josephus. Antiquities 18 Chapter 3.
Another is Tacitus - The Annals IV:44
Above are renown historians of the era. I am not even refering to eyewitness and other people’s accounts who you might say are Christians with a vested interest in reporting falsely.
All I say is that I would believe people that was murdered by tortur for believing Jesus died, rather than some person hundreds of years later just making a claim. I will accept if you state that you believe the prophet Muhammad BECAUSE OF A MATTER OF FAITH. I can’t because it clash with too many other factors and proven facts.
BTW. I believe I read enough. I assume that I read more (as well as more widely) than you. If you know Josephus, you will realise what I mean by stating that I have read the book more than once. I would therefor appreciate it if you would not refer to me having to read even more…
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
Exactly the reaction I tried to avoid when I didn’t want to post my list. (See post 66). I only posted on request from armughal. Anyway, will refrain from any more discussion on the issue.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
[quote=SlaveofAllaah]
Well Allaah did teach them mining and I believe in it period
[/QUOTE
Mining was known 1000's of years before Solomon or David.
I accept your believe. Just remember your believe on this issue is due to faith not fact....
Even scientifically its proven, your support link has to delve in furhter, i can provide you the link in which it was there since BC.
Well PM me more of the links, its good for my knowledge too.
Well, they are more links for companions of the cave, but i restrain from quoting it, coz its just a theory but Prof Harun Yahya has done great research on this fact but states in his research it can be hence i better avoid it thanks.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
No. Your response in post 81 indicate that you can’t reason objectively without taking it personally or getting emotionally involved with issues that are very dear to your faith.
I also take great exception to being called a liar as per your post 79 without any foundation.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
The old man i have edited it was a typo it was** i dont take things personally i have edited that part of it that is in confirmation with my next words that i do it for the sake of Allaah, it was a typo.** Because it cannot be i am taking things personally like wise taking it personally for the sake of God, doesnt go together. Well for now, i know i m just wasting my time messaging you, but will see you in the other thread be prepared for some facts.
Take an oath on God and tell me how much of Quran have you read on your own or just looked into anti-islamic websites and got those stuff.
Well The Old Man, i repeat again unlike you, i dont take things personally I do things for the sake of God or Allaah, well you dont provide me with links, you expect me to believe you, no way. I believe when you provide sound reasoning, but not otherwise dont take it seriously but I feel for this sought of debates you should be prepared when you get such allegations, which from the Muslims side no one have done it,
Well I am glad you got the verses across but you failed because you couldnt face the challenge. Well no ones here to win I agree but atleast the truth should be clarified.
Foundation for a liar ask yoursefl in your previous post you have mentioned you have read the Quran and got this stuff and then later you mention you have done a research by googling, googling what kind of source is that. You get stuff and readymade points points as if you have read the whole of Quran and later tell me to believe you as you have odne a research your own research well i believe you but you have done your own research on anti-islamic website, well when i provide you some stuff on an islamic website you refrain.
Well unless you provide me with evidence and authenticity I will quote the below verses. Well, I just laugh at these things and always quote these verses form Quran,
002.111
Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
If you cant provide me wiht authentic evidence to your claims, because if you were a student knowledge you could agree with lots of things but you didnt rather you went into Quran to look for contradictions, then I have only this to say
017.081 YUSUFALI: And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
Then, I have this verse too, just for you, coz you went ahead with contradictions and failed in the challenge then Allaah is got this verse just for you,
017.088YUSUFALI: Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
Enjoy till then, well I am a bad guy but cant help I agree, i am bad.
Allaah knows the best. Now this line is personal thats now is the difference between personal and for the sake of Allaah.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
Of couse I also google! But I did not google the list. If I did, then you should be able to find exact wording or sequence on the net - you can’t because it is not there.
Yes, I HAVE read the Qur’an cover-to-cover and made notes in the margin as well as highlighting. The list was drawn up by paging through the Qur’an and compiling a “master” list of which I took the three small ones. Proof? You can clearly see the references from the Qur’an run in numerical order. Now, retract your statement of “liar” if you have honour or proof me wrong by giving a site where it can be clearly seen that I used e.g. exact wording or sequence.
I am waiting…
Anyway, I will not waste my time further by arguing this point with you.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
Old Man, since ARM and SalveOfAllah have already went through the list you posted I will not reply to it but rather post a summarized list of things I deduced from this thread about the Christian scripture. I can definitely come up with more but I will keep it limited mostly to what we discussed.
1 - Bible has no historical preservation but everything written in it is said to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2 - Bible is rarely understood in the idiom of the language it was written in but rather present day language i.e. Son of God or Children of God is now taken literally as opposed to the metaphorical meaning it had when revealed.
3 - One reason was Quranic revelation was to correct the dogmas of Christianity, which were not what Jesus PBUH had taught. This correction is not accepted by Christians.
4 - From the Quran it can be deduced that there is room for Christians and Jews and an appeal to them to come back to the straight path however there is no such room for muslims in the Bible or mention in the Bible that people in the future will resort to monotheism instead of Trinity as the fundamental belief.
5 - Bible exegesis has been incorporated into the Bible thus the message Jesus PBUH actually gave does not exist in its pure form any longer and there is no means to sift it out either at least accurately. This reduces its authenticity as well.
6 - Bible is not necessary for Christianity. The Hoy Spirit can circumvent any Bible.
7 - Early gospels were written in Greek, one level already removed from the language in which Jesus PBUH delivered his message.
8 - The explanation of Trinity i.e. Body, Soul and Spirit being one blurrs the line between any normal human and Jesus PBUH since all humans according to Christianity comprise the same three things. This leaves no way to differentiate Jesus PBUH as God from other Prophets or Humans performing miracles.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
In fact, I actually think that the prophet would be seriously disgusted with the division caused and focus on the Hadith's in Islamic life. My personal opinion, but I think that the Hadith's have complicated the life of a Muslim more than what the prophet had intended with the Qur'an. As I read through the Qur'an, I realised that the prophet tried to simplify complications in life by laying down simple rules. The Hadith's complicate these simple rules and Islam is now sold to some scholars deciding by reasoning on Hadith's what is the correct way. Judaism have the same system with the Talmud....
He did. The Quran is the ultimate yardstick, if a hadith goes against it in principle then it is wrong.
So what were they thinking? Such powers can only be possessed by God or Prophets?
Simple, he had no father.
The day seems too short after 5 though. :)
Yes.
Muslims simply believe, God willed it to happen and it happened. No drama around it.
Then lets not attribute him with being more than just The God.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
1 - Bible has no historical preservation but everything written in it is said to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The Dead Sea Scrolls (dated 150BC-100AD) are 1000 years older than the oldest surviving Jewish (Hebrew Masoretic) copies of the Old Testament. There are no significant differences proving that the Jewish copyists did an excellent job for a 1000 years. There exist thus no reason to believe they did less of a good job before 150BC. Historically then it can deduced that the Old Testament are extremely close to the originals (some of them only 200 years older than the oldest copies now in existence due to the Dead Sea descoveries.
Please note that Jesus frequently and often read from the Old Testament scriptures of his era, he NEVER indicated that they are corrupted. By the testimony of Jesus we thus know that the Scriptures in his time were not corrupted. The Dead Sea Scrolls proves that they were not corrupted since. Facts!
With regard to the New Testament, ALL of the scriptures can be regenerated from quotations in existing surviving original letters and other manuscripts.
The moment older surviving manuscripts can be found indicating differences, immediately translators wil use it in newer versions/translation of the Bible. Christianity is not afraid for discoveries of older and maybe more accurate manuscripts. We do not destroy old copies and manuscripts such as what other faiths have done…
No historically preservation? Have to disagree…
2 - Bible is rarely understood in the idiom of the language it was written in but rather present day language
Not true. The way to read Scripture is firstly literal and if impossible, then symbolic. It is standard for people studying as preachers in Christianity to have courses outlining the cultural, political and idiomatic way of life of the time of the composition of the Scriptures, AND to incorporate it into their understanding of the said scripture.
3 - One reason was Quranic revelation was to correct the dogmas of Christianity, which were not what Jesus PBUH had taught. This correction is not accepted by Christians.
The prophet Muhammad did not state that the Gospels were incorrect. The prophet in the Qur’an therefor did not try and correct the message of Jesus as nothing Jesus taught are referred to in the Qur’an (except for the Trinity concept which the prophet anyway got wrong in deducing it exists of the Father, Son and Mary).
Please feel free to give examples where the Qur’an, with specific reference to the Gospels (all of which from the New Testament was apparently known to the prophet, the rest he did not know of as he do not refer to it) or teaching of Jesus as per Christianity, rectified Jesus’ message. I did not find one reference in my reading of the Qur’an.
4 - From the Quran it can be deduced that there is room for Christians and Jews and an appeal to them to come back to the straight path however there is no such room for muslims in the Bible or mention in the Bible that people in the future will resort to monotheism instead of Trinity as the fundamental belief.
Disagree with statement. Both religions accept the other’s folowers if they would convert.
5 - Bible exegesis has been incorporated into the Bible thus the message Jesus PBUH actually gave does not exist in its pure form any longer and there is no means to sift it out either at least accurately. This reduces its authenticity as well.
Subjective and unproved statement. See note to point 3. In Surah 29:46 prophet Muhammad did not state any corruption, in fact, Surah 5:47 states that the Qur’an should be judged from the Gospels for correctness and not the other way round!
I do understand that because of your faith in the Qur’an, you HAVE to accept the Qur’an as correct and perfect. That is an absolute requirement of your faith. This viewpoint necitates that Islam HAS to accept the Old and New Testaments are corrupted because they clash with the message of the Qur’an.
Interestingly, Christianianity, which openly accept it is a continuance of Judaism, accept the Old Testament AS IS. Islam who wish to state it being in the same relationship, can’t accept ANY of the scriptures. I believe it is because Islam is not a continuance OR correction of corruption in the two faiths, but rather “new Knowledge” as per Surah 2:151
6 - The Hoy Spirit can circumvent any Bible.
The Holy Spirit will guide as per God Almighty. Christians know their God from the way He dealt with other situations as per the Bible. It therefor can logically be deduced that the Holy Spirit, inspirer of the Bible, will not “circumvent” the Bible.
One way for a young Christian, still learning to distinguish the voice of the Holy Spirit, learning whether it is the Holy spirit talking to him or not, is to judge what is being said according to the Bible scriptures.
7 - Early gospels were written in Greek, one level already removed from the language in which Jesus PBUH delivered his message.
As mentioned, one of the Gospels might have been originally written in Hebrew. There is no proof that Jesus did not speak Greek during his teachings, or Latin. In fact, when the quotes attributed to Jesus are compared to the Hebrew Masoretic and the Greek Septuagint of Jesus’ time, it can be proven that Jesus quoted frequently from the Greek version and not the Hebrew! If Jesus used the Greek Septuagint, why would he not teach in Greek?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
The moment older surviving manuscripts can be found indicating differences, immediately translators wil use it in newer versions/translation of the Bible. Christianity is not afraid for discoveries of older and maybe more accurate manuscripts. We do not destroy old copies and manuscripts such as what other faiths have done..... :)
This sounds unwise, at best. Older may not be better...how does one determine the veracity or quality of the older manuscripts? In any case, I wouldn't make light of manuscripts which indicate differences at all...that does imply a form of corruption.
The Quranic manuscripts that were destroyed were not historical artifacts, but proven corrupted variants. The version we have today is tracable to this original codified version.
It's not at all an identical situation, in that Muslims do not need to rely on 'finds' to verify their texts.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
The Dead Sea Scrolls (dated 150BC-100AD) are 1000 years older than the oldest surviving Jewish (Hebrew Masoretic) copies of the Old Testament. There are no significant differences proving that the Jewish copyists did an excellent job for a 1000 years. There exist thus no reason to believe they did less of a good job before 150BC. Historically then it can deduced that the Old Testament are extremely close to the originals (some of them only 200 years older than the oldest copies now in existence due to the Dead Sea descoveries.
Please note that Jesus frequently and often read from the Old Testament scriptures of his era, he NEVER indicated that they are corrupted. By the testimony of Jesus we thus know that the Scriptures in his time were not corrupted. The Dead Sea Scrolls proves that they were not corrupted since. Facts!
With regard to the New Testament, ALL of the scriptures can be regenerated from quotations in existing surviving original letters and other manuscripts.
The moment older surviving manuscripts can be found indicating differences, immediately translators wil use it in newer versions/translation of the Bible. Christianity is not afraid for discoveries of older and maybe more accurate manuscripts. We do not destroy old copies and manuscripts such as what other faiths have done..... :)
Do the Dead sea scrolls speak of Trinity? And if everything is inspired by the Holy Ghost then the reliance on older scriptures means there is a possibility of the Holy Ghost not inspiring the gospels or Bible. According to Christianity if the Holy Ghost inspired all the gospel writers then why does it need to be verified against older scriptures? Are there doubts about the authenticity of the gospel writers versus the older scriptures. I find your answer here conflicting with the very philosophy of the Holy Ghost inspiring gospel writers.
Not true. The way to read Scripture is firstly literal and if impossible, then symbolic. It is standard for people studying as preachers in Christianity to have courses outlining the cultural, political and idiomatic way of life of the time of the composition of the Scriptures, AND to incorporate it into their understanding of the said scripture.
I can agree to that however when we debate I'm sure you will come across arguments from people who will point out the same phrase being used in different meaning when used fro Jesus PBUH and others from the Bible, however let us leave this for the debate.
The prophet Muhammad did not state that the Gospels were incorrect. The prophet in the Qur'an therefor did not try and correct the message of Jesus as nothing Jesus taught are referred to in the Qur'an (except for the Trinity concept which the prophet anyway got wrong in deducing it exists of the Father, Son and Mary).
Please feel free to give examples where the Qur'an, with specific reference to the Gospels (all of which from the New Testament was apparently known to the prophet, the rest he did not know of as he do not refer to it) or teaching of Jesus as per Christianity, rectified Jesus' message. I did not find one reference in my reading of the Qur'an.
The Quran clearly states, that Trinity is not what Jesus PBUH taught and as for the teachings, remember Jesus PBUH did not come with any new laws or Shariah. Prophet Muhammad SAWs advent was accompanied with a while new Shariah or Law, which abrogates that of the predecessor Prophets and also clears the misconceptions regarding the dogmas or creed of Christianity. Muhammad SAW did not come to teach the or preserve the same Judiac law as Jesus PBUH had, this is similar to Moses PBUH, he brought a new Law or Shariah with him.
As far as him getting it wrong, I think you cannot make that claim as Christology itself in Christendom is not clear about what it means and that is the reason the Nicea Council had to be convened to decide what is to be done about this matter.
Disagree with statement. Both religions accept the other's folowers if they would convert.
Actually, this is incorrect. Christians and Jews are accorded special status in Islam, which is why they are refered to as the People of the Book. No such concept for muslims in Christianity. Christians and Jews will goto heaven according to Islam (without becoming muslims and before Islam came) if they were upon the correct doctrine i.e. monotheism. Any people who followed their Prophets correct teachings will goto heaven (or be eligible for it).
Subjective and unproved statement. See note to point 3. In Surah 29:46 prophet Muhammad did not state any corruption, in fact, Surah 5:47 states that the Qur’an should be judged from the Gospels for correctness and not the other way round!
005.047 *
**YUSUFALI:* Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
Doesn't say anywhere to judge Quran by the gospels. I will post the tafsir later on.
The same argument goe the other way around as well.
If it is a continuance of Judaism then how come Jews do not believe in Trinity and are still monotheistic. If it is a continuance (which it originally was) then how all the dogmas were changed, why all the debating in Christianity about the nature of Jesus PBUH?
Every answer cannot be deduced from the Bible and the Quran but sometimes common sense is used to understand why things are the way they are. This is one of the reasons when debating using scriptures to prove or disprove only leads to dead locks but we it does not encourage intelligent discussions but My way of the Highway kind of discussions.
The Holy Spirit will guide as per God Almighty. Christians know their God from the way He dealt with other situations as per the Bible. It therefor can logically be deduced that the Holy Spirit, inspirer of the Bible, will not "circumvent" the Bible.
One way for a young Christian, still learning to distinguish the voice of the Holy Spirit, learning whether it is the Holy spirit talking to him or not, is to judge what is being said according to the Bible scriptures.
And if there are differences in the Bibles and Gospels. Then what is he to do? Which Bible is the correctly inspired one?
As mentioned, one of the Gospels might have been originally written in Hebrew. There is no proof that Jesus did not speak Greek during his teachings, or Latin. In fact, when the quotes attributed to Jesus are compared to the Hebrew Masoretic and the Greek Septuagint of Jesus' time, it can be proven that Jesus quoted frequently from the Greek version and not the Hebrew! If Jesus used the Greek Septuagint, why would he not teach in Greek?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
Older is closer to the original. Presently good translations indicate any differences of other old manuscripts in a footnote. Suppose they will do the same.
Thus far NO major differences (differences that impact on the message of the Bible or will change any doctines) have been found. I doubt any will.
Not true. ALL copies were destroyed, even those by the original writers!
Christianity also do not depend on “finds” to verify. Sometimes God intends for manuscripts to surface in miraculous ways in order to proof there are no changes/corruption. If one of the Qur’anic manuscripts that was supposed to be destroyed, does turn up today it will be destroyed by Islam if the slightest difference exist to the present canon - even if it was written by one of the original writers that sat at the feet of prophet Muhammad. Now THAT will not happen in Christianity because we feel secure in our scriptures to investigate and incorporate any differences.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity
Hmm...I don't buy the assertion that older is closer to the original. What's more important is the delta between the variants, and some mechanism to determine the origins of the manuscript and how reliable it is in the first place.
[quote]
Not true. ALL copies were destroyed, even those by the original writers!
[/quote]
I'm not too sure what you mean about 'original writers'...there was an official copy of the Quran being scribed as revelations were announced. But, aside form that, the primary means of dissemenating the Quran seems to have been verbal.
There's no evidence of a preponderance of written copies of the Quran, and indeed, only when a crisis was predicted as the number of people who memorized the entirity of the Quran was shrinking due to war was the codified version ordered in the first place.
Also, I noticed you made an assertion that the Qurnaic concept of Trinity involved Mary...this interpretation seems to be a polemic with origins outside of Muslim scholarship, as no serious Muslim scholar has put forward that interpretation to date.
[quote]
If one of the Qur'anic manuscripts that was supposed to be destroyed, does turn up today it will be destroyed by Islam if the slightest difference exist to the present canon - even if it was written by one of the original writers that sat at the feet of prophet Muhammad.
[/quote]
Probably, since the original codification was a verified process, and what we have today is traceable to the original codex. We've already been through the process nearly 1400 years ago...why this is taken as a weakness is a bit strange.
