Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

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101

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Remember from our discussion on “God” I frequently quoted and indicated that the Old Testament have numerous references that can only be explained by the concept of the Tri-une God? Well, about 200 manuscripts are Biblical or Old Testament books (or part of books) and therefor DOES mention the same references as what we have in the Old Testament.

In short - Yes, they do.

The statement does not make sense. The Holy Spirit inspired the original books and therefor one would tend to try and get the original books if one can. It has NO relevance on copies NOT being good enough or even translations.

The gospels does not need be verified against older scripture as we basically have the originals.

No.

In what way? :confused:

People will twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean. If read as a whole, one get’s the big picture and small paint brush strokes changes are not even visible. The main essence and meaning remain the same. I have used the Jehova’s OWN corrupted Bible in debates with them and shown them on their errors. In order to corrupt a work as big as the Bible is enormous and small errors just don’t cut it.

Unfortunately Jesus did come with new teaching (Sharia?) as per his own words: John.13v34, Luk.22v7, and others. It is build on what was given to the Jews and expanded. As we can discuss on the topic “Jesus”, it is clear that Jesus equated himself with God.

I have to agree with your point what the Qur’an states. Unfortunately a later message won’t convince Christians to let go their recognised scripture. Many-many manuscripts have surfaced after the New Testament books that claim that the original scriptures got it wrong. They are NOT being destroyed ( :slight_smile: ) but kept as non-authoritative manuscripts. In the same vein the Qur’an is regarded by Christians.

NEVER EVER did the Trinity concept include the Father, Son and Mary, NEVER EVER. It NEVER even came up for discussion at the mentioned council. It ALWAYS is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Don’t want to be dogmatic but the prophet definitely DID get it wrong. I thing in all discussion between Muslims and Christians on whether the Qur’an is perfect THIS iissue will be raised. It is such a glaring mistake. Not being rude or trying to blaspheme, but it a fact.

When put like this, I stand corrected. You are correct and some Christians even go as far as saying that the Muslim’s God is not the same as the Christian God. I used to think the same but changed my views after interaction on this forum and further investigation.

BUT, the goodwill of Islam towards the People of the Book, are offset by the denouncement on them who believe in the Tri-une God. Slight inconsequence as all Christians believe in the Tri-une God.

I understood it that the Christians (People of the Gospel) should judge the Qur’an. The only way to judge the Qur’an is to compare it to what they were taught by Jesus and their Scriptures. Christians can’t pass the Qur’an when viewed in the light of Jesus’ teaching and Bible.

The Christians have no other way to judge the Qur’an. To state therefor they should, doesn’t make sense if they can’t judge the Qur’an with the teaching they received. Maybe I don’t understand the verse in the Qur’an - will wait on your Tafsir for better understanding.

Off the topic, having to refer things like this to a commentary such as the Tafsir, makes the Qur’an a difficult book and prone to misunderstandings since all Tafsir’s surely do not 100% agree on all. We also have commentaries but they NEVER have such an influence in understanding the Bible.

Correct.

Christianity originated from the Jews who did accept the teaching as per Jesus and Apostles. There will always be those that are not open minded.

Dogmas changed? W.r.t. debate on Jesus: there is a major movement in the Christian church to downscale Jesus and his as well as the apostle’s teachings nowadays. It stems mostly from their humanistic approach, not being able to believe that miracles can occur, and to try and blend the Christian faith with science and world philosophies.

They don’t argue about Jesus, they deny all miracles eben the virgin birth, authenticity of Bible scriptures, existence of Satan and Angels, resurrection at final day, etc, etc. Can’t take these guys serious when investigating Christianity.

Good way of putting it.

I doubt if the Holy Spirit will be concerned with small inconsequential differences. Let me illustrate it by example. The fifth time I read the Bible I used a new Afrikaans translation and as I progressed the Spirit continually pointed things out that is not correctly translated. I wrote them down as I read but did not investigate further. When finished, I went back and checked these verses (MANY) with more reputable translations and every single one was a major error in translation. I believe the Holy Spirit guided me as no-one can read a book the size of the Bible over a period of 5 years and be able to do what was done. Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit will highlight for a Christian wrong translations if you let the Holy Spirit function properly.

The same way I read the Qur’an and, whether SlaveofAllaah believes it or not, verses were highlighted by me. Some just teaching, some agreements with the Christian faith and some disagreements. Imagine doing the same from your side with the Bible! I am actually grateful that I did read the Qur’an because in teh past I never could debate or undeerstand some of the discussion on this forum - now I do and can even quote verse back! :slight_smile:

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Those are the ones I am referring to.

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There’s no evidence of a preponderance of written copies of the Quran, and indeed, only when a crisis was predicted as the number of people who memorized the entirity of the Quran was shrinking due to war was the codified version ordered in the first place.
[/quote]

Not completely true. The codified version were mainly done from copies that existed. Some “missing parts” were done from memory.

They rather no because it is such a glaring mistake.

Please read Surah 5:73 with verse 116. it is clearly stated that Christians worshipped three people as God and tow are mentioned as being Jesus and his mother Mary as per verse 116.

It points to a will to suppress and keep proper scientific scrutiny at bay.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

So is Torah and the Old Testament the same? What does the Old Testament say about Moses PBUH, did he ever preach Trinity according to the scriptures?

The point is, if the Holy Spirit guides Christians in life then why the need for the Bible?

A very true statement however then I can't find any justification for the Council of Nicea if the doctrine was so clear. What was the purpose of this council? The existence of even small errors proves that big ones could have been made and just swept under the carpet without notice at the opportune time. The word perfection and God go together.

We will discuss it when we discuss Jesus PBUH then though I disagree here.

It seems the Church has defamed Islam so much that it would be a quite an effort to even accept anything from it no matter how true it is, also called as shoot themselves in the foot. Quran from the very onset accepted things from Christianity that were true and corrected those that were wrong. Islam never defamed Jesus PBUH or his teachings, but always left a way to come back.

No mistakes as far as I am concerned. Please quote the reference, I probably already know what it is but I would like for you to post it.

To gain the goodwill of people does not mean you must become one of them. Plus it is not really goodwill but an invitation to the truth, it extends to all people. Christians and Jews having prophets amongst them before is the reason why they are addressed specifically. They carried a heavier responsibility than others who are not people of the book. It is easier to converge on issues with someone who belives in God compared to someone who does not.

Inshallah I will post comments on it later on.

On the contrary not resorting to a tafsir gives rise to a false understanding as the one you have. This is one exampe of certain verses, which should be understood with its explanation if read in English especially.

Their misfortune arises from the doings of the Church itself though. Had God not been brought into the human domain in the form of Jesus PBUH, Christianity would not have become so saucy. Christians address God as if he is their family member now, so casual without respect. How could you blame them when the church itself has been driving them to such conclusions.

So for a non-Christian to find errors in the Bible is attributed to what then?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

I feel we are drawing to a close here. Old Man I will start the next thread, it will combine Heaven, Hell and Judgement day as they are all inter-related. I do not see a compelling need for another summary here since we are now somewhat discussing and debating the summaries. I believe a lot will be re-visited when we do the last thread in this series (which I will also combine) about Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Sort of. The Torah is the first 5 books attributed to Moses and also called the Pentateuch. The Prophets is called the Naviim and the Wisdom Writings the Kethubim. They are called the “Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms”. Taking the first letters of Torag, Naviim and Kethubim you get an acronym Tanakh. The Old Testament is therefor called by Jews the Tanakh. Most people will understand if you refer to the Torah that you wish to point to the Old Testament.

The same answer given in my first response of post 101 also factor here. In fact, I believe one of the best discussion of the Tri-une God concept is from Genesis 1-2 which form part of the books attributed to Moses. My aswer will therefor be YES, I can clearly see and deduce the Tri-une concept from the Books of Moses.

Good question. Christians should rely mainly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit for daily way of life. Unfortunately many Christians are not disciples but mere followers and have never learned to hear the voice and guidance of the Holy Spirit, even pastors and professors of theology. Then it becomes imperative to have a book indicating what God expect from man. Another reason why the Bible is necessary is as per my post 101 where one can judge whether it is the Holy Spirit speaking or not. Thirdly, mankind prefer laws and regulations, do’s and don’ts and from the Bible clear guidelines can be drawn. Fourthly, the Bible is an excellent way to do missionary work as the unbelievers don’t understand the function of the Holy Spirit initially.

There has always been, and always will be, a healthy discussion among Christian theologians about the human and Godlike qualities and attributes of Jesus. Was he pure human or did he retain some Godlike abilities when he came to earth, for example. A theologian Arius started to teach contrary to the norm that Jesus was not God but, knowing Jesus couldn’t be a mere human as per the scriptures, rather an Angel. The council took him and his converts to task and, using the scriptures, for the first time compiled the existing doctrine in a written/official way.

This council was not the first. The first one is described in the book of Acts chapter 15. Some of the Jews tried to convice the newly converts from the non-Jewish section that they should also be circumcised adn follow the Law of Moses. ALL the siciples and apostles and elders of the then church got together in Jerusalem and, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, stated that circumcision and the Law of Moses are not required from new non-Jewish converts. James were the chairmand and the apostle Paul also attended. A letter was drafted and circulated amongs the churches to refute the false doctrine of these Jews.

Various other councils dealt with other issues as they were raised. One, the Dort one, I disagree with.

OK

Discussed in post 102 above.

For 2000 years the major doctrines were the same. These people only exist now because the church has grown soft and do not confront them as it should. The dissidents remain in seminaries and are teaching and indoctrinating young impressionable students who are the next generations preachers and professors. I also blame the church but not for your reason, rather the lack of forcefulness, apathy and general inability to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. But, Jesus and the apostles did state that there will be an apostacy in the last days before the return of Jesus Christ.

…of inconsequencial differences and errors and to accept that they are not major - a honest student that does not just accept on face value everything you are being told.

…of inconsequencial differences and errors and to blow them up as if they are major problems - a nitpicking person who are not teachable.

…of major alleged differences and errors and to highlight them but willing to listen to other viewpoints on the issues - a earnest person who one can reason with and maybe learn something from.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

I agree. Thanks for the discussion thus far - also those others that did read and sometimes contributed.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Missing parts? The Quran was first completely compiled under the rule of Abu Bakr as-Saddiq (ra). Uthman (ra) created a codex as variant readings were poppping up in the far regions of the new empire, in particular Syria. That there would be missings bits unrecorded during the time of codification doesn't fit with the historical narrative.

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They rather no because it is such a glaring mistake.

[/quote]

Only if the polemic held any weight.

5:73 and 5:116 are quite far apart. The nature of the verse is distinc, too.

ome suggest that the two are linked, I don't think so. 5:73 is a clear cut condemnation of the Trinitarian doctrine. 5:116 seems to admit more to the Christian habit of asking either Jesus or even Mary (which happens to this day) for intersession, or possible even the divinization of Mary (pbuh) in addition to Christ (pbuh) by an Arabian Christian heresy.

[quote]

It points to a will to suppress and keep proper scientific scrutiny at bay.
[/quote]

Unless, of course, due diligence was already spent...and I don't think Muslims should loose sight of this because of the sophistry of others. Muslims have an authorative, verified document, and so don't need to rely on finds to prop up what we already have.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Intercession is not mentioned but Worship. Sorry, your explanation does not confront what is written.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Asking for intersssion is most indeed a form of worship, at least acording to the Islamic doctorine. For example, exlaiming "help me Jesus", as many Christians I know do, is exactly the kind of thing the Quran is exhorting against. Muslims would never cry out "help me Rasool!", or anything like it. Needless to say, I could just as well argue that the Trinity is not mentioned either in that particular verse. By your standards, then, you would have to abandon your interpretation.

This is the point the Quran is trying to make, if you disagree that is a different matter. But what I say is cannonical interpretation, unless you sugges tat Muslims should abandon their theology in favor of anti-Islamic polemics.

This practice of anti-theology fascinates me, though.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

BUT the Surah state clearly that Christians worshipped Mary AS GOD, not as another human intercessor. You still are skirting the real issue! Why did the prophet stated that Christians worshipped Mary AS GOD!

Let me quote it again: And behold, Allah will say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou not say unto men, “Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah”?’

In verse 73 it clearly states “Trinity” meaning three (3). If God the Father is one, and Jesus is one, THEN CLEARLY FROM VERSE 116 IT IS MEANT THAT MARY IS THE THIRD.

I am sorry, but it is as clear as daylight. No wonder “no serious Muslim scholar” has pointed this out!

But hey, I understand. It is an impossibility for you to accept that there might be a small “error” in the Qur’an because then Islam as a teaching/religion will be redundant. I accept it. You HAVE to believe through FAITH that the Qur’an is error free, even if some “problems” are pointed out. Just don’t expect people from other faiths to also accept the Qur’an on faith without thinking seriously about these “problem areas”.

:confused:

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

Christians worship Christ. To this day, many Christians venerate Mary to the extent where it can very well be considered a form of worship. Intersession is just an assumption on my part of what the Prophet and his contemporaries observed of Christians; that the verse doesn't mention it is not really of concern.

Now, you can't have it both ways. If 5:116 is tied to 5:73, then it's talking about some Christians, and not all - namely the Prophet's (pbuh) contemporaries. That there were Christian herasies that considered Mary devine is a known fact, so that is also a consideration. But I am of the view that the two are not tied at all, and so 5:73 is a condemnation of the general concept of Trinity, and 5:116 is a clear-cut and specific condemnation of treating Jesus or Mary as devine, as contemporaries of the Prophet (pbuh) did.

In Islam, only God can be appealed to. Appealing to antoher is akin to making them gods. Islam prohbits the deification of sacred figures, a major theme of the Surah. This is basic Islamic theology, so if there is a misunderstanding it is on the part of missionary polemics who fail to grasp this simple concept.

Nor is the link between 5:116 and 5:73 clear. That is mere speculation, and doubtful at that.

[quote]

In verse 73 it clearly states "Trinity" meaning three (3). If God the Father is one, and Jesus is one, THEN CLEARLY FROM VERSE 116 IT IS MEANT THAT MARY IS THE THIRD.

[/quote]

No, it's not clear at all. Rather, it's a deep wish and desire on your part. Second, the verse does not mention God (the Father), but Allah - nor is the association between "The Father" in the Trinity and Allah made anywhere. The intent of the verse is captured rather nicely by the use of the word 'derogation'...to graft your interpretation (i.e. 5:116 is somehow related to 5:73) does not mesh well with the theme of these verses. The central thesis of the Quran is that there is no God but Allah, and 5:116 makes it clear that no others (not Jesus (pbuh) or Mary(pbuh), or anyone else) can be associated with allah.

Your latter comments about not accepting the Quran on faith is absurd, and borderline arrogant. The text is there, and you simply have not made the case that your interpretation is logical or even sensible given the overall narrative.

So then it becomes a matter of belief on your part that the Quran is in fact referring to the Trinity in 5:116...how odd is this...a Christian holding a dogmatic belief about the Quranic text. Certainly the irony is not lost on you...and this is what I refer to as an anti-theology.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

I think you are not a true christian and you are more ethic
its useless to talk with you on the scripters
but still if you like , answer thoes 6 points i have mentioned in the other thread

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

^Buddy cool down, I know, I request TOM to stay away frm futher reply. And usmanshahid here is the verse from Quran,
16:125
*Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
*

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Scriptures) - Islam and Christianity

let see them as well

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  1. Many differences in history and stories from the Old Testament.

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ofcourse as the old testament was corrupted
for example
? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.9, Verse No.13 to 17, that… ‘After God, at the time of Noah submerged the world by flood

and Quran doen't mention the whole world
today science tells us that whole world was never under water
part of the world can be

[quote]

  1. Some unscientific statements.

[/quote]

none in Quran but many in bible
as 6 of them i had mentioned in other post
from which you are running and trying to hide yourself

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  1. Difference w.r.t. the teaching on God and the interaction with His creation.

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because quran is word of God and bible is human book

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  1. Basically NO mention of any of Jesus’ teachings.

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ofcourse
but you follow trinity as this word you will not found in any bible but in Quran

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next in next post inshallah