Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

For me it's very simple (It's just my view) Prophecy is a prediction/future event with a time stamp. If there is no time stamp then to me its random/natural occurance.

Let me give you an example: If I say that the desert of arabia will be lush jungle sometimes in future and it happens after some centuries; that is not a prophecy. But if I say the desert of arabia will be lush jungle after 500 years or in year so and so, and it happens: This is a prophecy.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Maybe I don't understand.
Is all the evil in this world by the will of God? Why?
Why the God with all the good attributes given in the earlier thread would do/allow these atrocities?
Why do we blame Satan afterall he is just fulfilling the will of God?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

USResident, I accept and agree with your statement on Nostradamus. According to Islam, Nostradamus can't be a prophet as no new prophets are accepted after the prophet Muhammad. In Christianity we DO accept prophets after Jesus. In looking at the "prophecies"/predictions of Nostradamus, we therefor need to check it against what we know from previous accepted prophets. As far as I know (not having made a study of Nostradamus), Nostradamus did not write anything that clash with the Bible, the only problem I can see is the fact that he used code - but then some Bible prophets also did the same such as Daniel.

I can't emphatically say on the issue of Nostradamus....

As to the definition of what a prophecy is, I agree with those that responded. BUT, in Christianity a prophet has two functions: today and future. A prophet therefor also can be considered a prophet if he NEVER makes a prophecy of the future. A person will/can be considered if he point out wrong in the present time and just say/indicate that God will punish it (without saying when or how).

I still await your response on the following:

  1. Are any non-Jewish prophets, other than the prophet Muhammad, quoted or found in Islamic scriptures (including the Hadiths)?

  2. It is a fact that the Jews & Chrisitans expect Elijah to still come. In Islam he is considered a prophet (I think). I therefor assume that Islam don't expect Elijah to return again?

Also please answer the following:

  1. A quote from the Qur'an about the prophet Muhammad being the last prophet.

  2. Show using the Qur'an why women can't be prophets.

  3. How, according to the Qur'an, can one make sure a prophet is a true prophet? Is there certain criteria according to the Qur'an which a prophet needs to fulfill before being called a prophet?

  4. A quote from Qur'an stating Lot to be a prophet.

  5. Are all the prophets mentioned in the Bible as prophets considered as being true prophets according to Islam? I think of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc.

If you answered above questions, I think I will be able to summarize what I see the differences/agreements between the two faith are. We then can go on to the next topic.

wierdness
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

That would be an exact type of prophecy - something that did happen only a few times. I understand though your sentiments.

Many times a prophet would prophecy, “if something are not improved, God will…”. Surely if the people listen to the prophet and DO change their actions, the prophecy will not happen BECAUSE it was dependant on the action of the listeners after hearing the prophecy. I suppose sometimes the date is specifically not tied down in order to gice as much time as possible for the listeners to change their heart. I also suppose, knowing mankind, that once they know WHEN something will happen, they will wait till the last moment before changing their actions OR ensure they are not present when the prophecy happens.

I therefor can understand why prophecies mostly are open-ended without a date. There did though exist some prophecies in the Bible where dates or exact time frames were mentioned.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Please excuse my skeptism but is it like leaving room for error?

I totally agree.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Till USR can answer, may I add something?

Religious people insist that God is All-knowing, All-powerful, etc. It is impossible therefor to accept that anything can happen without the prior knowledge and sanction of God. The sanction might only be the allowing of something terrible, but we just can’t accept that God “might not be in control”. One way to solve the problem is to insist that God, once He completed His creation, has a hands-off approach and is only a spectator.

USR can speak for Islam but Christianity teach that God is involved every moment of the day. Obviously one may suppose (understandable) that God will be more involved with His followers than His detractors. Christianity also teach that God allows mankind free choice in their actions till the day of Judgement. Some of our choices cause us problems which we may not put before God as it was our choice. Sometimes other forces such as Satan can influence our lives negatively as in the case of Job - being a pious man, God restricted Satan though. Sometimes God has a reason for allowing pain and suffering which we only understand long afterwards. Sometimes it is the laws of nature and mankind’s sinful nature that cause pain and suffering - God is not to blame.

In the end one also needs to realise that each time God takes an active part in the general process of life, He actually perform a miracle because He has to negate scientific laws (put there by Himself) or influence the thread of peoples lives for the rest of mankinds history.

Just my two cents worth…

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Makes sense.

Doesn't make sense.

Thanx for prompt reply.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Error in understanding the prophecy’s final outcome? Yes.

In fact one of the first rumours in Christianity started because of poor understanding of what Jesus said just before his ascension.

Jesus’ disciples wanted to know what would happen to John, who was extemely close to Jesus and he also loved him maybe the most, once Jesus is there no longer. Jesus told them, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumour spread among the brothers that this disciple would never die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die. - John.21v20-23

It is sooo easy for wrong dogma/theology to occur. The moral of above quote is that each of us should continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, as Paul said in Phil.2v12.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Maybe I can explain a little better:

  1. Paul used to kill many Christians before his conversion. I believe this fact made him such a hard working disciple after his conversion. Millions of Christians benefitted from some who lost their lives. The Christians that lost their lives, and their loved ones, might at the time not understood what the benefit would be for the whole of Christianity.

  2. A person overeating and then having stomach cramps can’t blame God for allowing it.

  3. God took away by sickness David’s child born from the woman whose husband he had murdered. It is due to his sinful nature, not God’s fault.

  4. Etc.

In the end, everything is about God, His plan, His idea, His whatever. We are like an experiment to Him which He can ditch anytime. That’s why Christianity stand on the Grace of God for salvation, as we might discuss when we get to the topic.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

I don't want to take this thread to a different tangent but the christians slain by Paul were innocent and were trying to follow God. Does that maen nothing to God? IMHO their understanding the motive of a greater good has nothing to do with it.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

LB, No no no, thats is not what I mean. When we say the will of God we mean Allah SWT has given us the free will to execute choices or allowed such actions to happen based on the will of others.

For instance, if I will to confine you to a room say 20x20 feet then that is your space to move in and do whatever you want, similarly if I will to confinein a smaller space then again you have the freedom to do whatever you wish in that room. By will what is meant is that Allah SWT has set our boudaries and within those boundaries we have been given a free will. When I said Satan cannot do anything without Allah SWT will what I mean to say is that Allah SWT willed Satan to have enough power over humans that he can misguide them whether he does it or not is left to his choice. Had Allah SWT not willed Satan to have enough power over humans to effect them then he could not harm us or misguide us.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

1. Are any non-Jewish prophets, other than the prophet Muhammad, quoted or found in Islamic scriptures (including the Hadiths)?

Prophet Hud PBUH, Prophet Saleh PBUH and Prophet Shuaib PBUH are believed to be non-jewish prophets besides Prophet Muhammad SAW. They are said to be pure Arabs,

2. It is a fact that the Jews & Chrisitans expect Elijah to still come. In Islam he is considered a prophet (I think). I therefor assume that Islam don't expect Elijah to return again?

No muslims do not expect Elijah to return, we only expect Jesus PBUH to return.

3. A quote from the Qur'an about the prophet Muhammad being the last prophet.

Surah 33:40
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

4. Show using the Qur'an why women can't be prophets.

I think I have answered this before. In Islam we do not choose our prophets, Allah SWT sends them. I don't think there is any relevant information in the Quran to answer this question other than logical reasoning based on the Islamic life style and challenges prophets faced.

5. How, according to the Qur'an, can one make sure a prophet is a true prophet? Is there certain criteria according to the Qur'an which a prophet needs to fulfill before being called a prophet?

I would say Allah SWT help makes it clear who is a prophet. When a prophet threatens a punishment from Allh SWT, it always comes to pass. This is something you will find common among all the prophets in Islam. The point at which there nations were destroyed was when they called to Allah SWT for help against their people. In my knowledge there is no specific criteria. Prophets only convey the message and whether you believe in their prophethood or not does nto affect their status as a prophet.

6. A quote from Qur'an stating Lot to be a prophet.

Surah 37:133 - 138
And Lot was one of the messengers, when we rescued him ....

7. Are all the prophets mentioned in the Bible as prophets considered as being true prophets according to Islam? I think of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc.

Only those that would be common. Others I cannot claim anything. We are supposed to believe in all the messengers Allah SWT sent whether we know them or not but we follow the message from the Last Messenger of Allah SWT i.e. Muhammad SAW.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

It does mean to God that His agenda were furthered due to what followed.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Are there any historical literature mentioning these prophets? I don’t want to be difficult but for interest sake it would be good to know more about these men. Being prophets, I suppose they did feature in old Arabic literature?

Thanks for the quote. Am I correct that this is the only reference to the fact? Why would the prophet use figurative speech “Seal” if he might have said “the last”?

This being a major deviation from the Jewish faith, I would have assumed that the Qur’an would specifically address this issue since Islam consider it as Complete. If the “logical reasoning” is wrong due to cultural thinking, a major injustice will have been done.

Could it be that they are not mentioned in the Qur’an because the prophet Muhammad never heard of them from Jewish sources? That he only mentiones those that he has heard from Jewish sources?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

USResident, I think we have reached the end of this discussion and can maybe move on to the next if it is OK with you.

Please start a new thread with Non-Human /Angelical creations.

We might as well discuss all the other race/groupings of creatures made by God together. (Obviously this doesn't mean animals, etc.)

Thanks to you and the others for this discussion.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

In summary the agreement and disagreement between the two faiths:

Agreements

  1. There can be false and true prophets (post 10).

  2. Miracles attest to a prophet but are not requirement for a prophet (post 3).

Part Agreement

  1. Islam teach that prophets can do minor sins but not major sins (post 26).
    Christianity teach that prophets can sin and even "backslide" or fall away from God's grace.

  2. Islam test prophets according to miracles performed and their acceptance as being mentioned in the Qur'an and whether their predictions come true (post 52/61).
    Christianity teach specific requirements and that prophets should be "tested" or judged.

Disagreements

  1. Islam teach that God can't "possess" a person (post 9).
    Christianity teach that the only way God can use a prophet is to take "possession" of him and speak through him by the Holy Spirit.

  2. Islam teach that there are no more prophets to come after the prophet Muhammad (post 52+).
    Christianity teach that any number of prophets can come after Jesus and that to prophecy is necessary among believers.

  3. Islam teach that there never were woman prophets (note 3/52/61).
    Christianity teach that there is no distinction between man or women and either can be prophets.

  4. Islam teach that the prophet Elijah will not come again (post 52).
    Christianity teach that the prophet Elijah will come before the End-of-Times.

As a special note: Whenever Christianity is mentioned, it also refer to Judaism. Both believe and teach the same about prophets and prophecy. The only exception is that Judaism won't accept any prophet not from the Jewish faith. Some Jews accept Jesus as a prophet.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

about only men being sent as messengers....

Quran 16:43
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than **men* whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not!*

also mentioned in 12:109 and 21:7....
the word used here in arabic is "rijaal" which specifically means "men" and cannot be used as a common term to include men and women....

Dates
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Thanks for the quote, armughul.

Don’t the Qur’an sometimes refer to “men” but “women” is actually included in the reference? An example from the Bible: Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death - Ex.21v12. In the quote, is the subject and issue of the sentence “men” or “whom We inspired”?

I actually would consider 13:38 a better reference due to the indirect exclusion of women in the reference to “wives and children”.

The problem is that Judaism DID consider women to be able to be prophets and took them equal in status as Moses, Abraham, etc. It does mean that Islam do not recognise all prophets of Judiasm.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

^ that is why i told u that the word used in arabic "rijaal" is never used to include women....

the problem with 13:38 is that it does not mention "men" specifically....
it can be used to include women....
and the word for wives is "azwaaja"in arabic, which is better translated to "spouse"....
the translators take it to mean "wives" because they understand that messengers were all men and hence "spouses" here means wives....

so if u bring forward 13:38 only, it cannot be evidence of only men being sent as messengers....

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Most probably in arabic, which have not been translated into English. I read this information from Ibn Kathir's Stories of Prophets.

I do not think this is the only quote however if read different translations of this verse some translators have translated the word as 'Last' as well.

I do not follow your point here. Please elaborate or simplify.

Prophet Muhammad SAW never read any Jewish sources. I can understand you would make this point because you do not accept that Muhammad SAW received revelation. However at the same time had this been true then the accounts of Jesus PBUH should match those dominant in Christianity. On the contrary they refute them. Some of the information about Jesus PBUH is not even found in Bible, which is found in the Quran. Had Jewish sources been an inspiration for Muhammad SAW then there conduct would not cursed in Quran. There are no historical accounts of Jews teaching Muhammad SAW their scriptures either. In fact, the ones I mentioned Hud and Salih are no where mentioned in Jewish sources though quotes from Moses in the Quran refer to them meaning that he had knowledge of them yet the Jews ignored to record their stories thinking that non-jewish stories would be of no signifcance in their sources.