This thread is a continuation of the original “Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity”.
What we want discuss here is the concept of Prophets in both religions. Find any commonalities and differences. I surmise it would be quite inevitable that we would end of discussing Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH at some point. Once we start getting to that point we can start off the next thread in continuation to this about either Jesus PBUH or Muhammad PBUH or if we chooses we can keep the discussion confined within this thread.
To start off I’ll probably make the simple statement that Prophets were messengers of Allah SWT in Islam and in Islam Jesus PBUH was also a prophet of Allah SWT whereas this is also the fundamental difference of creed between Islam and Christianity. In Christianity Jesus PBUH has been elevated to the status of God according to muslim belief i.e. reverance has been exagerated in the case of Jesus PBUH. And Muhammad PBUH is not accepted as a Prophet in Christianity.
As always my request to keep it clean. This is a dialogue not debate so quoting what LightBearer had mentioned in my earlier thread, this is not about winning or loosing but enlightening. Everyone is welcome to particpate, just don’t overwhelm the particpants.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
Jesus is actually portrayed and mentioned as King, Prophet and Priest in Bible.
The major differences between the two faiths, not considering Jesus or the prophet Muhammad, are maybe the following (correct me if I misunderstand Islam’s view):
Islam take some people mentioned in the Bible as prophets while Christianity doesn’t, e.g. Lot (Lud)
How important the performing of miracles are in order to be a prophet.
Islam don’t accept prophets after the prophet Muhammad, while Christianity do.
Christianity take women also as prophets, and I suspect Islam don’t.
There might be other difference which someone can add…
What is the difference between prophets as messengers relative to angels such as Gabriel, in Islam?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
The major differences between the two faiths, not considering Jesus or the prophet Muhammad, are maybe the following (correct me if I misunderstand Islam's view):
Islam take some people mentioned in the Bible as prophets while Christianity doesn't, e.g. Lot (Lud)
Lot PBUH is taken as a Prophet in Islam. In Islam we reject the acts than are attributed to Lot in the bible. I do not recall, which verses they are in the bible, if you know please post them or I will have to find them otherwise since I do not have the bible with me at present. According to Quran Lot's PBUH nation was one that invented sodomy and they were destroyed by Allah SWT for this act. In present day the place where the dead sea exists is where Lots nation resided. Why is Lot PBUH not accepted as a Prophet in Christianity would be my question?
Miracles are an attestation (there is not Quranic verse as far as my knowledge is concerned, which would specifically state this however tihs is the understanding I have developed after studying the Quranic tafsir) to the truth brought by Prophets and not necessarily a requirement as far as my understanding goes. In general, Prophets were supported by miracles when their people demanded so in exchange for believing in what they claim to be true or Allah SWTs path. Mostly but not always the miracles were of the nature in something that the people of the time excelled.
Correct. We believe Muhammad SAW to the last Prophet and Jesus PBUH the Prophet who will come before Judgement day to re-establish the teachings of Muhammad SAW i.e. Islam. Why does Christianity not accept Muhammad SAW as a prophet?
That is correct. There are no woman Prophets in Islam. However there are few women have enjoy an extremely revered status in Islam to the extent that they have been mentioned in the Quran. Generally for muslims for someone to be mentioned in the Quran means that they were either very pious or very sinful to be made an example out of. Maryam or Mary and the wife of Pharoah are but two examples from the women mentioned in Quran. They are both mentioned with high respect.
What is the difference between prophets as messengers relative to angels such as Gabriel, in Islam?
Gabriel is an angelic messenger whereas prophets were all human messengers.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
We as Muslims can see/call it a commonality but it would be interesting to see if the Christians sees it as commonality or a difference and if its a difference than based on what?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
I think Islam and Christianity see Mary and the virgin birth the same. Some Christian theologians go overboard on the issue though:
Some, because they can’t understand or accept that God is the Author and Originator of the universe with it’s scientific rules/laws, can’t accept or understand miracles. They therefor negate the virgin birth and theorize different ways in explaining it away.
Others, go too far and start worshipping Mary and attributing certain qualities and miracles to her without any basis. These are theologians such as the Roman Catholic Church with the late Pope being the worst stating Mary was sinless, was taken up to heaven without dying, etc.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
I assume you are referring to the fact that Lot’s daughters got him drunk and then slept with him? It can be found in Gen.19.
According to the Bible, Lot and his people choose to live in the city/region of a nation, not his own, who practiced homosexuality and other sins. Lot was found to be righteous by God and through him his household was saved from God’s destruction of the region. The accepted view in Christianity is the same as Islam about the original site.
Not every pious person is accepted as a prophet by Christianity. Normally to be considered a prophet, a person should exibit a prophet’s qualities and attributes. The person must “speak God’s mind” w.r.t. the present or future.
Lot did no prophecy (as far as I know) and therefor normally would not be considered as a prophet. Why according to Islam should Lot be accepted as a prophet? What are the criteria for a person to be considered a prophet according to Islam?
Jewish and Christian faith accepts a prophet on what he say/prophecy not on miracles. Miracles can be done by anyone. Only a prophet can “speak God’s mind” by telling people HOW to live as well as what will happen in future. A prophet is tested on whether what he says correspond with what other known prophets said in the past and whether his predictions/prophecies come true (which would again make him a reference to others who give them out as prophets).
The prophet Muhammad did not exhibit the qualities of a prophet as understood in Jewish and Christian faith as explained above. I stand corrected but understand that the prophet Muhammad did not do major predictions or prophecies w.r.t. the future. The prophet Muhammad’s teaching differ too much from the teaching of other prophets of old as per the Bible.
Any reason why the discrimination? As can be seen from my explanation what constitutes a prophet in Christianity and Judaism, a woman can exhibit the traits of a prophet. Various prophetesses are mentioned in the Old Testament, namely Miriam the sister of Moses (Ex.15), Deborah the Judge (Jud.4), Hilkiah (2King22). In the New testament we have women such as Anna (Luk.2v36).
A prophet can be “good” or “false”. An example of a false woman prophet is Jezebel (Rev.2). Because most of the prophets mentioned in the Bible were men, most of the false prophets mentioned were also men.
Can a prophet be false according to Islam?
In Christianity and Judiasm a prophet becomes a prophet when God’s Spirit enters him. It thus is not him speaking but the Spirit of God through him. In the Old Testament this happened only at times when God wanted to say something. In New Testament times, and in accordance to Jesus’ teaching, The Holy Spirit can now dwell full-time in humans. As the Spirit of God can inhabit a human, an evil spirit can also. That’s why the spirits should be tested.
I understand that according to Islam a prophet can’t receive a revelation directly from God? It needs to come through an intermediatory such as an angel?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
According to the Bible a prophet can sin. He always remains a sinful creature. Does Islam also accept that a prophet might sin even after his being used as a prophet by God? In one instance God even permitted a false spirit to enter one of His true prophet in order for the prophet to lie about what God's intentions are.
Can a person be "possessed" by God or His Spirit?
The way the Bible tells us that God's Spirit "possess" people is in direct contrast with Islam where he is considered to be the holy spirit of God.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
There is bit of disagreement whetehr a Prophet can sin or not, some do beleive that a prophet can make a mistake like story of Younus as.
[QUOTE]
Can a person be "possessed" by God or His Spirit?
[/QUOTE]
In Islam we do not beleive that a person is possessed by His spirit. But we do beleive that prophets only say what God wants them to say. Yes in that way God speaks through them.
[QUOTE]
I understand that according to Islam a prophet can't receive a revelation directly from God? It needs to come through an intermediatory such as an angel?
[/QUOTE]
As per my understanding, in Islam we beleive that God speaks to his prophets by various means, by means of an angel or by dream or by a direc talk (but prophet cannot see God)
I don't understand what u mean by "false" prophet? False prophet is not a prophet. Does christianity say that God sends false prophets too, thats news to me.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
I believe so.
So what we differ in is that we do not attribute the account od drunkeness to him. It appears conflicting to me that Lot be chosen by God as righteous and yet there would be mention of this obscenity about him in the bible. Do you think this could be wrongfully attributed to him?
When you say not every pious person is accepted as a prophet in Christianity does it mean that Christian theologians have their own criteria for choosing prophets or are the people who were prophets stated so in the bible. In Islam all prophets that are accepted as prophets are mentioned as prophets in the Quran. Choosing prophets is not left to human choice but it is Gods choice of a human to convey his message. I would like for you to elaborate "speak God's mind". I'm a bit confused by that statement.
In our believe humans never chose prophets, prophets were sent based on Gods own choice. The principle duty of prophets was to convey Allah SWT message to mankind. The message came down over ages as mankind developed until they were ready for the final revelation, which we believe is the Quran. Another thing I find confusing because of the advent of Christianity is that why would God have all his prophets preach monotheism yet as Chrsitians believe God himself came incarnate in the form of Jesus PBUH, he then abolished all his previous teachings of centuries to mankind and would preach Trinity. Christian doctrine is the only fish out of water doctrine, compared to the doctrines preached by all the prophets of God before or after Christianity. This according to our belief was another reason for Prophet Muhammad SAW to convey the Quran so it would rectify what had been corrupted in Christianity according to our belief. If Islam was a new faith or something different the Quran would not give details about where Chrisitianity went astray, as we believe.
How can miracles be done by anyone? Based on this criteria, Muhammad SAW teachings are more in line with prophets before Jesus PBUH, to me this would cover more ground for acceptance of him as a prophet. Muhammad SAW has prophecies and we can see them materializing. Can you cite any fulfilled prophecies from the bible and who made it?
On the contrary there are many prophecies by Muhammad SAW about judgement day. If I can show the effects of even one prophecy then would that satify acceptance of him as a prophet?
I don't know if I would call it discrimination, do you think the kind of treatment that was metted out to the Prophets of God can be borne by a woman? What prophecies are attributed to these prophetesses?
Can a prophet be false according to Islam?
Yes. "Musalimah the liar" is known as a false prophet. He claimed to be a prophet during the time of Muhammad SAW.
Is there a difference between soul and Gods spirit in Christianity? In Islam, Gods guidance can be with any human. There is no concept of Gods spirit. What we believe is that when Gods wishes to guide someone he gives him understanding of the his religion. Guidance is something that can be imparted to many simultaneously however when I read your statement it makes me think Spirit is either synonomous with guidance as we believe or God has multiple spirits, one for each human being on earth. I would comprehend that to be a soul. And we believe that the soul can be guided by Allah SWT. So we can achieve the same result as you without even having the concept of Spirit of God. And guidance is no stranger to any of us but the Spirit of God is a mystery to mankind.
Do you know about Jinn? The reason I ask is then I will show you its relevancy to your statement above according to Islam.
That is one method. It can also be inspired through dreams.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
[QUOTE]
Do you know about Jinn? The reason I ask is then I will show you its relevancy to your statement above according to Islam.
[QUOTE]
USR That is one method. It can also be inspired through dreams.
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
I would just add the other various type of revelations to the Prophet, Yes Angel Gabriel was who came down with the most revelation. But Allaah spoke to Prophet directly, while in Meraj. Then other one was through dreams.
So if I rest my case then Allaah is spoken to Prophet directly but with a veil. So God spoke to Prophet Moses too directly and verses were revealed.
Just an addition to USR.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
Prophets were human. And humans are always capable of sinning. You cannot find more pious models of humanity than prophets because they had exceptional help from God in order to convey Allah SWT message. However prophets were probably the most conscience about sinning and repented more than others. If a prophet is not capable of sinning he would not preach repentance as a cornerstone of faith.
I do not recall which verse in Quran but I have definitely read in certain places where Allah SWT reveals to Muhammad SAW that he could not have conveyed the message without Gods help and always warned him or explained him to stay away from sin or useless desires.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
Then the Bible err on the account. I would just as much want that not be than you would accept that the Qur’an err on the account
The Bible does not pull punches. If a pious person err/sin, it is told as an admonishment and example for others. In a way it makes the Bible more truthful as nothing is hidden, nothing is swept under the carpet, all wo/men are treated eaqually before God and their fellow wo/men.
We accept what the Bible state about a person. Some ambiquity might arise in certain circumstances though. I doubt if a Christian would correct a Muslim when he speaks of Abraham as a prophet, even though he is not really taken as a prophet but rather a pious man. Maybe because the title “prophet” do not hold the same meaning as in Islam where it seem such a person is held in much higher esteem. In Christianity (and Judaism) it is accepted that even a much revered prophet is but still a normal man with a sinful nature.
Surely not all prophets are named in Qur’an? Does the mentioning of a person’s name in a positive manner in the Qur’an means that person MUST be a prophet?
Tell normal people what God Almighty thinks of current afairs and what He plan for future.
USResident, can you explain Why according to Islam should Lot be accepted as a prophet? What are the criteria for a person to be considered a prophet according to Islam?
As shown in the previous dialogue, there are ample evidence according to Christians showing, even from the Old Testament, that the way to understand God Almighty and His works is to form a concept of a Tri-une God.
Miracles can also be attributed to Satan working through people.
There are too many but I will give three examples:
An unnamed man told Eli the priest that his sons will die due to their sins on the same day - 1Sam.2v34 fulfilled 1Sam.4v11.
An unnamed man told King Jerobeam that a descendant named Josiah of King David line will sacrifice priests on the Lord’s altar - 1King.13v2 fulfilled 2King.23v16.
A man called Philip told Paul that he would be imprisoned if he go the Jerusalem - Act.21v11 fulfilled Act.21v30.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
Please give a prophecy that was fulfilled afterwards as a known fact.
Just remember, a prophet does not necessary tell future events. The prophet Muhammad telling people how to live in his time is also a prophets duty.
Yes, why not?
Not all prophecies of a prophet/ess is quoted in the Bible. I will though give you an example about Deborah:
Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at the time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah…She sent for Barak…and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men…I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army…and give him into your hands.’” Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.” “Very well,” Deborah said, “I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honour will not be yours, for the Lord will hand Sisera over to a woman.”
Barak, together with Deborah routed Sisera and his army. Sisera fled from the battle and was slayed by a woman. Judg.4
Yes, I have read about them. Thought we could discussed them under the next topic “Angels” and change the topic rather to “Non-human creatures God created”.
But not directly from God as in a voice from heaven or such? Thinking of the way Moses received his relevation to go and free the Israelites from Egypt.
Slaveof Allaah, sorry I responded before looking at your post…
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
True.
So then what would be the probable reason for mention of prophetic stories in the bible. For muslims they carry some moral or point that Allah SWT wants to make us understand. For instance, the biggest lesson we would draw from the story of Lot PBUH is that sodomy is not liked by Allah SWT. In fact it is hated so much that Allah SWT chose to destroy that whole nation because of it. Is this the same lesson Christianity draws from it. I can't claim the bible to be truthful because that is the major sticking point for us muslims that it has been corrupted and revised so much that it can't be claimed as the word of God. Also it being corrupted is why Quran was revealed as well. If it had not been corrupted then Quran would not have mention about it and Christians and Jesus PBUH. Muslims could have gone merrily on their way without having to worry about Christians and Jews. There is obviously reason that the muslims were asked to believe in Jesus PBUH as a prophet also.
Prophets are also normal men in Islam also. However the whole point of them being a prophet is that they avoid sin. When you say we have a sinful nature, does that mean we cannot live without sinning.
No it does not. It specifically states prophets or messengers.
I believe I answered this one before. Chosing prophets is not upto humans. Its a choice made by God. Surely, no one can testify about historical events and people with more veracity than God. I think I don't have a good answer for you on this question, may be someone else can help out here however I think we are not able to establish that Prophet in Islam and Christianity are the same thing. I think we should discuss that before we re-visit this question.
.............
Waiting ...
But even Satan cannot do anything without Gods permission.
An unnamed man told Eli the priest that his sons will die due to their sins on the same day - 1Sam.2v34 fulfilled 1Sam.4v11.
An unnamed man told King Jerobeam that a descendant named Josiah of King David line will sacrifice priests on the Lord's altar - 1King.13v2 fulfilled 2King.23v16.
A man called Philip told Paul that he would be imprisoned if he go the Jerusalem - Act.21v11 fulfilled Act.21v30.
The fundamental thing I find conflicting here is that all these prophecies were made in the bible and fulfilled in the bible. Perhaps what would help out here is some detail about the revelation of the bible. Was the bible revealed as a whole, or over a period of time etc. If their is no time relevant detail about the bible then I can easily assume that this is just the recording of a historical event before and after it happened and then I can pen it down as a prophecy. Do you see my point here? Like Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. The prophecies Muhammad SAW made are mostly relevant to mankind and not specific people for most cases.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
An unnamed man told Eli the priest that his sons will die due to their sins on the same day - 1Sam.2v34 fulfilled 1Sam.4v11.
An unnamed man told King Jerobeam that a descendant named Josiah of King David line will sacrifice priests on the Lord's altar - 1King.13v2 fulfilled 2King.23v16.
A man called Philip told Paul that he would be imprisoned if he go the Jerusalem - Act.21v11 fulfilled Act.21v30.
The problem with such non-prophecies is that we have no way of knowing if they really were made before the event or after.
There are tens of qouted sayings of Prophet saw about the events that took place within few hundred years after the death of Prophet saw and were foretold by Prophet Muhammad pbuh, but if i present them to you will those be convincing to you? I doub coz u will have no way of knowing exactly when the "origin" of a particular saying was although Hadeeth maintains a much higher standard of narrating than bible. In Hadeeth the writer has to tell from whom he heard the saying and then that person heard the saying from whom till the chain goes back to Prophet pbuh.
Compare this to bibe where the author writes ANYTHING he wants without having to pass thru such stringent criteria. Hence when we muslims read bible we can only say that all sorts of legend, myth and imagination of people has found its way in bible.
The bible prophecies are meaningless unless u present something in todays context.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
[QUOTE]
The Bible does not pull punches. If a pious person err/sin, it is told as an admonishment and example for others. In a way it makes the Bible more truthful as nothing is hidden, nothing is swept under the carpet, all wo/men are treated eaqually before God and their fellow wo/men.
[/QUOTE]
Timothy 2
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
Is this what you mentioned as in quote, well they are some cases in the Bible, in which the person is erred but doctrine wasnt given for that, correction wasnt provided, no instruction was and no reproof too.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity
Inshallah! I will. One of the prophecies is about the defeat of Persians at the hands of the Romans. I will get the specific details for you.
I think the establishment of an Islamic state in Madinah would be ample evidence of the fact the Muhammad SAW told how the people to live during his time. There are numerous hadith about the portents before judgement day.
Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at the time. She held court under the Palm of Deborah....She sent for Barak...and said to him, "The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men.....I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army....and give him into your hands.'" Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go." "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honour will not be yours, for the Lord will hand Sisera over to a woman."
Barak, together with Deborah routed Sisera and his army. Sisera fled from the battle and was slayed by a woman. Judg.4
I do not see a prophecy here.
As you wish, then we will carry over this topic into the next thread once we are finished here.
Slaveof Allaah, sorry I responded before looking at your post....
