Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

In summary the agreement and disagreement between the two faiths:

I would like to correct some things here if you do not mind:

@The Old Man

Part Agreement

1. Islam has no real test for prophets other than acceptance of those already mentioned in the Qur'an and whether their predictions come true (post 52). Christianity teach specific requirements and that prophets should be "tested" or judged.

I would disagree with this statement because many prophets mentioned in Quran were challenged by their people to prove their prophethood by performing a miracle. In return for that people were asked to believe in Allah SWT or chastisement will follow. When people disbelieved after witnessing miracles they were punished by Allah SWT. So many people became followers before witnessing miracles because they saw truth in the message being conveyed, some became believers after witnessing miracles i.e. this was a test imposed by people on their prophets to prove their prophethood and some did not believe even after witnessing miracles. These disbelievers faced the prophecies made by their prophets of severe punishment from Allah SWT.

@The Old Man

Disagreements

1. Islam teach that believes God can't "possess" a person (post 9). Christianity teach that the only way God can use a prophet is to take "possession" of him and speak through him.

I think this is not a valid statement because there is no triune concept of God in Islam, which makes such a thing possible according to Christianity. So we are actually comparing apples to oranges here. Had there been a triune concept of God in Islam then I would mark this as a difference.

@The Old Man

7. Islam teach that there can't be woman prophets (note 3/52). Christianity teach that there is no distinction between man or women with regard to prophets.

Islam does not teach that there can be no woman prophets however there is no specific mention from the Quran of woman prophets (see ArMughals post also).

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

USResident, I think we have reached the end of this discussion and can maybe move on to the next if it is OK with you.

Please start a new thread with Non-Human /Angelical creations.

We might as well discuss all the other race/groupings of creatures made by God together. (Obviously this doesn't mean animals, etc.)

Thanks to you and the others for this discussion.

Your welcome. I have enjoyed conversing with you. Inshallah! I will open the thread tomorrow or day after.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@armughal

about only men being sent as messengers....

Quran 16:43 And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than **men* whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not!*

also mentioned in 12:109 and 21:7.... the word used here in arabic is "rijaal" which specifically means "men" and cannot be used as a common term to include men and women....

Thank you Armughal for clarifying this. This was not in my knowledge.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

@The Old Man

Thanks for the quote. Am I correct that this is the only reference to the fact? Why would the prophet use figurative speech “Seal” if he might have said “the last”?

I do not think this is the only quote however if read different translations of this verse some translators have translated the word as ‘Last’ as well.

the actual word used in arabic is “khaatam” which means “last or the ending one”, it also means “seal” and it also means “ring” (worn on the finger)…
its because of these different meanings that the word ‘seal’ is used for translation…
because some scholars wud say that seal means that Muhammad (saw) attests the prophets before him and hence he acts as a seal (cofirming the prophethood of earlier prophets)…
he also acts as a seal, like one ends a message and then seals it off…

perhaps u might know that ‘ahmadis’ or ‘qadiyanis’ who call themselves muslims (eventhough a general convention of muslims has ruled them as non-muslims) stress that “khaatam” here does not mean “last” because they believe in prophets to come after Muhammad (saw)…

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Most probably in arabic, which have not been translated into English. I read this information from Ibn Kathir’s Stories of Prophets.

I would have liked to read more about them. There is no reference on the internet where more information can be attained?

I do not follow your point here. Please elaborate or simplify.

Not accepting women prophets is a major deviation from the Jewish faith/teaching. I just thought the Qur’an would be more specific in denouncing women prophets by specifically mentioning it and not by inference. Anyway…let’s stick to what can be inferred from the Qur’an as per yourself and Armughul clearly shown.

Prophet Muhammad SAW never read any Jewish sources…

Point taken.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

I would like to correct some things here if you do not mind

Have changed the summary. Please in future feel free to comment on the summaries I will provide at the end of our discussions, also on the degree of severity of disagreement/agreement. I will do a summary at the end of each discussion just to highlight the main points raised in the discussion - also for others that do not wish to read through all the discussion.

I would disagree with this statement because many prophets mentioned in Quran were challenged by their people to prove their prophethood by performing a miracle.

Have changed the summary. I will keep it under Part Agreement because the methods disagree somewhat. Miracles for testing the trueness of a prophet were but one means for Judaism and Christianity.

I think this is not a valid statement because there is no triune concept of God in Islam, which makes such a thing possible according to Christianity. So we are actually comparing apples to oranges here. Had there been a triune concept of God in Islam then I would mark this as a difference.

Judiasm does not believe in a Tri-une concept and they accept that God’s Spirit can take possession of people. The difference is therefor very large and not really just dependant to the way Christianity understand God to function.

I therefor still consider the statement valid because it does show a marked difference how Judaism and Christianity differ on the way God use/work through the prophets. I’m not saying who is correct in teh summary, just pointing out differences. This is a glaring difference.

Islam does not teach that there can be no woman prophets however there is no specific mention from the Quran of woman prophets (see ArMughals post also).

Islam does not recognise any women prophets though, do they? The general agreement among Islamic adherents are that there is no woman prophets, I understand. I will change the summary somewhat though.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@armughal

perhaps u might know that ‘ahmadis’ or ‘qadiyanis’ who call themselves muslims (eventhough a general convention of muslims has ruled them as non-muslims) stress that “khaatam” here does not mean “last” because they believe in prophets to come after Muhammad (saw)…

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I have seen the discussions between members of different sects (?) of Islam on this issue. In Christianity we also have large groupings differing on major issues, e.g. the Roman Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Pentecostles.

It is exactly because of these differences between the Islamic groupings that I would have expected that the prophet Muhammad would be more clear in indicating the issue in the Qur’an. Now it is slightly left open for disagreement. Surely this issue is as large as (a) the Oneness of God Almighty, or (b) the absolute truth of the Qur’an, both issues VERY clearly expressed in the Qur’an.

If the prophet Muhammad is NOT the last prophet, the Qur’an might not be the last Message, having a major impact on Islam which is completely tied to the authenticity of the Qur’an.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

^ only in the last century did on eman come up with this meaning that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) is not the last prophet....
otherwise muslims do take him as the last prophet and the subject is very clearly mentioned in hadith....

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Have changed the summary. Please in future feel free to comment on the summaries I will provide at the end of our discussions, also on the degree of severity of disagreement/agreement. I will do a summary at the end of each discussion just to highlight the main points raised in the discussion - also for others that do not wish to read through all the discussion.

Thank you.

@The Old Man

Have changed the summary. I will keep it under Part Agreement because the methods disagree somewhat. Miracles for testing the trueness of a prophet were but one means for Judaism and Christianity.

Partially agreed as stated.

@The Old Man

Judiasm does not believe in a Tri-une concept and they accept that God's Spirit can take possession of people. The difference is therefor very large and not really just dependant to the way Christianity understand God to function.

I therefor still consider the statement valid because it does show a marked difference how Judaism and Christianity differ on the way God use/work through the prophets. I'm not saying who is correct in teh summary, just pointing out differences. This is a glaring difference.

I think the reason I am not agreeing to this is because the concept of Spirit is tied with the triune concept. So to state this you must first demonstrate what Spirit means in a monotheistic religion.

@The Old Man

Islam does not recognise any women prophets though, do they? The general agreement among Islamic adherents are that there is no woman prophets, I understand. I will change the summary somewhat though.

There were no (does not talk about acceptance anywhere) women prophets according to the Quran, would be the statement I think best summarizes this.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

I think the reason I am not agreeing to this is because the concept of Spirit is tied with the triune concept. So to state this you must first demonstrate what Spirit means in a monotheistic religion.

As shown, even Judaism accepts the Spirit of God to be able to take possession of a person. They just don’t go as far as ask the question WHAT this Spirit would be like relative to God Almighty. They DO though accept It as being the Presence of God Almighty in some way. Similar to this, Judaism also believe that God Almighty personally spoke and manifested Himself to people. It are these problem areas that Judaism don’t adress that led Christianity to the Tri-une concept to try and solve it. Christianity maintains that the only way to understand God Almighty in relationship to mankind and His creation from the Old Testament is some concept that can enable God to manufest as Soul, Spirit, and Body.

I suppose we can again talk in depth about this when we discuss Jesus. Otherwise we need to re-open the first dialogue about God Alimighty.

There were no (does not talk about acceptance anywhere) women prophets according to the Quran, would be the statement I think best summarizes this.

There were none and since after the prophet Muhammad there will be none! In effect it does mean that Islam does not accept any.