Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

…sodomy is not liked by Allah SWT. In fact it is hated so much that Allah SWT chose to destroy that whole nation because of it. Is this the same lesson Christianity draws from it.

Yes, both religions agree.

I can’t claim the bible to be truthful because that is the major sticking point for us muslims that it has been corrupted and revised so much that it can’t be claimed as the word of God.

We will discuss this in more details under “Scriptures”.

[quote]
Prophets are also normal men in Islam also. However the whole point of them being a prophet is that they avoid sin. When you say we have a sinful nature, does that mean we cannot live without sinning.

It means there is a tendency in mankind to sin. It is exploited by Satan. It is a continuous active duty of pious men (prophets or not) to fight the urge to sin and to watch out for situations that might advance the chance of sinning. Prophets being more involved with God’s work and mind obviously will be better in keeping their sinful nature in check. That does not mean that an old lady down the road might not be better than any prophet if she commit her whole life to God and her fello wo/men.

I think we are not able to establish that Prophet in Islam and Christianity are the same thing. I think we should discuss that before we re-visit this question.

Give a summary or definition what the words (a) prophecy, and (b) prophet, mean in Islam. I will take it from there.

[quote]
Waiting …

[quote]

Wanted to say something but thought a beter opportunity will arise without digressing to far from the present discussion. Sorry!

But even Satan cannot do anything without Gods permission.

According to the Bible Satan have some dominium on Earth and can help people to perform miracles. Might be another difference between the two religions…might be the way the word “miracle” is defined.

@USResident & **Iconoclast**

The fundamental thing I find conflicting here is that all these prophecies were made in the bible and fulfilled in the bible.

The Bible being so old and there not being many other books from the era of the Old Testament that did survived, it does become difficult “checking” a prophecy in the way you propose. The same obviously goes for the Quran. It is one of the major points of athiests against using scriptures to prove God and theology.

Perhaps what would help out here is some detail about the revelation of the bible. Was the bible revealed as a whole, or over a period of time etc. If their is no time relevant detail about the bible then I can easily assume that this is just the recording of a historical event before and after it happened and then I can pen it down as a prophecy. Do you see my point here? Like Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years. The prophecies Muhammad SAW made are mostly relevant to mankind and not specific people for most cases.

The Old Testament was written over a period of hundreds of years before Jesus, the New Testament over some 70 years after Jesus. I could also have quoted prophecies as to the end times, but they still need to be fulfilled. Thought you wanted fulfilled prophecies.

The problem is that even if I give an example you could insist that the prophecy itself should be collaborated from outside sources. Given the few ancient historians of non-Jewish faith, it will become an impossibility.

Even Jesus’ prophecy that the Temple would be destroyed can be made off as “not proven” claiming that the date Christians put to the writing of of the Gospel of Mark is wrong.

The book of Mark was written about 57 to 63 AD and the temple was destroyed 70AD by the Romans. They set the temple alight and the gold used in the temple apparantly melted and flowed into the cracks of the walls. the soldiers, in order to get to the gold, literally took the temple apart stone by stone.

Mark.13v2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus, “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Can you give examples similar to above from the Qur’an and attested by non-Islamic source?

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

Timothy 2
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Is this what you mentioned as in quote, well they are some cases in the Bible, in which the person is erred but doctrine wasnt given for that, correction wasnt provided, no instruction was and no reproof too.

Example please?

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

I do not see a prophecy here.

She foretold that Barak will win the battle and that Sisera will be killed by a woman. You don’t see it as a prophecy?

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Example please?

Judges
16:1
Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her. 16:2
And it was told the Gazites, saying, Samson is come hither. And they compassed him in, and laid wait for him all night in the gate of the city, and were quiet all the night, saying, In the morning, when it is day, we shall kill him.
16:3
And Samson lay till midnight, and arose at midnight, and took the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and went away with them, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of an hill that is before Hebron.

Christianity follows the principles of Doctrine, Reproof, Correction and Righteousness, I cant find any of the 4 in the above verses from the almighty God.

Considering Genesis 38, same should have been done here to Judah too, right. The 2 sons fo Judah did not listen so Lord slew them where does this come into reproof. But in the other verses Judah goes unto daughter in law and there is no reproof, correction, doctrine or righteousness.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

She foretold that Barak will win the battle and that Sisera will be killed by a woman. You don't see it as a prophecy?

Ok. I see what you mean.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

We will discuss this in more details under "Scriptures".

Ok.

@The Old Man

It means there is a tendency in mankind to sin. It is exploited by Satan. It is a continuous active duty of pious men (prophets or not) to fight the urge to sin and to watch out for situations that might advance the chance of sinning. Prophets being more involved with God's work and mind obviously will be better in keeping their sinful nature in check. That does not mean that an old lady down the road might not be better than any prophet if she commit her whole life to God and her fello wo/men.

Somewhat agreed except the old lady part. Actually let me state this, in Islam Messenger of Allah SWT is different from Prophet of Allah SWT. A messenger is always a prophet however a prophet is not always a messenger.

A messenger is sent to a disbelieving people whereas prophets are sent to those nations where a prophet has already conveyed the message of law of Allah SWT.

Both messengers and prophets are chosen by Allah SWT and then they are tasked with conveying the message and calling to it. Every messenger or prophet has a pious life before or after the prophethood or messengership. This is one of the reasons why the account of Lot given in bible is not agreed upon by muslims. Messengers or Prophets are infallible in conveying the message or calling to it since they are protected by Allah SWT as far the message goes however they are capable of minor sins but not major sins.

@The Old Man

Give a summary or definition what the words (a) prophecy, and (b) prophet, mean in Islam. I will take it from there.

I think my above answer explains prophets. Making prophecies is not criteria in Islam for prophethood since humans are not the ones choosing prophets. Allah SWT chose all the prophets and messengers. Prophecy is not proprietary to Islam and has the same general meaning as it would otherwise.

@The Old Man

According to the Bible Satan have some dominium on Earth and can help people to perform miracles. Might be another difference between the two religions....might be the way the word "miracle" is defined.

How does Satan according to Christianity cause so many people to commit sins all together? Satan according to Islam is really from the Jinn and not an angel. Before being sent to earth he was included in the company of angels though but not an angel. Jinn is another creation of Allah SWT, which lives with us on this earth. I thikn miracle is usually used in the good sense. What you are saying I would probably explain this way in Islam, Jinn can help humans perform magic and other superhuman acts.

@The Old Man

The Bible being so old and there not being many other books from the era of the Old Testament that did survived, it does become difficult "checking" a prophecy in the way you propose. The same obviously goes for the Quran. It is one of the major points of athiests against using scriptures to prove God and theology.

I may be wrong but as far as I have studied all the Quranic prophecies which have been fulfilled are verifiable by historical sources other than the Quran. I do not have references since I am not very deep into history yet.

@The Old Man

The Old Testament was written over a period of hundreds of years before Jesus, the New Testament over some 70 years after Jesus. I could also have quoted prophecies as to the end times, but they still need to be fulfilled. Thought you wanted fulfilled prophecies.

So then the bible is not entirely what Jesus PBUH preached clearly.

@The Old Man

Can you give examples similar to above from the Qur'an and attested by non-Islamic source?

I can quote a few Quranic or hadith prophecies however in all honesty I am not a very resourceful person for historical references. Can someone help me out with this one?

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

Christianity follows the principles of Doctrine, Reproof, Correction and Righteousness, I cant find any of the 4 in the above verses from the almighty God.

A lot of the Bible is written down as history and not everything is connected to Doctrine. If you consider the full stories of the two incident you refer to you most definitely will see from what transpired OR preceding it a lesson.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

I think my above answer explains prophets. Making prophecies is not criteria in Islam for prophethood since humans are not the ones choosing prophets. Allah SWT chose all the prophets and messengers. Prophecy is not proprietary to Islam and has the same general meaning as it would otherwise.

Not trying to be difficult but could you define what you understand as “prophecy”?

[Light_Bearer]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Lot did no prophecy (as far as I know) and therefor normally would not be considered as a prophet. Why according to Islam should Lot be accepted as a prophet? What are the criteria for a person to be considered a prophet according to Islam?

The way it looks to me from literary point of view, word prophet is derived from prophecy or vice versa. That would make any man who can prophecy is a prophet. Foe example Nostradamus, do you consider him to be prophet?

@Iconoclast

The bible prophecies are meaningless unless u present something in todays context.

I believe that is the case in all the religions.

@USResident

A messenger is always a prophet however a prophet is not always a messenger.

Is it your understanding or the Islamic theological point of view?

@USResident

A messenger is sent to a disbelieving people whereas prophets are sent to those nations where a prophet has already conveyed the message of law of Allah SWT.

So what is right thing "Khatem e Risaalat" or "Khatem e Nabooat". I don't know if I get it right but the way you are saying: Is it still possible to have prophets if they bring the same last message?

I can understand why Khatem e Risaalat but don't understand what was the reason for Khatem e Nabooat. Surely we can use one in the current world situation.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@Light Bearer

The way it looks to me from literary point of view, word prophet is derived from prophecy or vice versa. That would make any man who can prophecy is a prophet.

Why I want a definition is that some people believe prophecy = telling the future = fortunetelling = only prediction of future events.

According to Christianity prophecy is a religious concept which go further than just telling what would happen in the future. It also means telling people how to live TODAY. It is being God’s voice on earth. Many many people according to this interpretation/definition are then prophets. Many of them even living today.

For example Nostradamus, do you consider him to be prophet?

Many Christians do. According to me he might be. Problem with Nostradamus is that his “prophecies” are written in code making it difficult to say before the event what he predicted. Normally a prophet is very clear on what he say or predict and not scared what authorities will do/say. Nostradamus was scared and therefor wrote in code. I don’t know…he might be.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

A lot of the Bible is written down as history and not everything is connected to Doctrine. If you consider the full stories of the two incident you refer to you most definitely will see from what transpired OR preceding it a lesson.

Infact i clearly mentioned doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction to righteousness is not written in the bible. In other cases if God slew some of them it was reproof, or would have said do this and not that that would be correction and righteousness was never provided in the Context at all.
If Bible is written down as history, the can I call it a book of history and not the Word of God. Tell me the truth is bible the very word of God, or is it distorted.

Coz if Judas son were given a reproof, the Judas being righteous why wasnt he and why in Judges 16 the 4 principles present in timothy 3:16 none of them were proved.

Well all my derivation is towards Genesis 19 and verses 30-38, well, do you think the Word of God can consist such words. Well i dont wont to take this to a different tangent, well I am just replying to your statement"Does not pull of punches if anyone errs the way to righteousness is guided by Allaah or God"

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

Continuing with what Light Bearer previously asked w.r.t. Nostradamus:

According to Islam there is no more prophets after the prophet Muhammad. Nostradamus therefor can't be a prophet no matter how pious he lives or whether he does miracles. He can't be a prophet even if he prophecy exactly in concurrance with what the prophet Muhammad taught.

Christianity don't bind God and still accept prophets up to the end-of-times. The two Witnesses of Rev.11 are prophets (according to me they are Elijah and Enoch - the majority Christians take them to be Moses and Elijah).

It is a fact that the Jews expect Elijah to still come. In Islam he is considered a prophet. I therefor assume that Islam don't expect Elijah to return again.

Can a fulfilling the two attributes of a prophet be a prophet if he is not from the Jewish, Christian, or Islam religion? Can a person be considered a prophet if he has an intimate relationship with God Almighty and proclaim something that is in agreement as what we would consider God Almighty's mind/plan/purpose?

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Not trying to be difficult but could you define what you understand as "prophecy"?

To predict something in the future or something that will come to pass.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

First i am waiting for the rebuttal from post # 31 and the next is
Since the The Old Man is talking about Prophecies, then in bible they are several which are unfulfilled

Genesis Chapter 4-12-17. Regarding Cain being wanderer but in 17 it says he build a city.

Jeremiah Chapter 36 verse 30, that Johakiam will never be a king but unfulfilled in King 2 chapter 24 verse 6 he became a king

Ezekiel Chapter 26 Nebchadrezzar will destroy Tyrus but we know today Alexander destroyed Tyrus.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@Light Bearer

Is it your understanding or the Islamic theological point of view?

As far as my knowledge goes this is the most widespread scholarly concensus on this subject.

@Light Bearer

So what is right thing "Khatem e Risaalat" or "Khatem e Nabooat". I don't know if I get it right but the way you are saying: Is it still possible to have prophets if they bring the same last message?

I can understand why Khatem e Risaalat but don't understand what was the reason for Khatem e Nabooat. Surely we can use one in the current world situation.

The end of the divine message does not mean there will be no new prophets who are sent to establish. However the end of new prophets certainly implies there will be no new divine message.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

According to Islam there is no more prophets after the prophet Muhammad. Nostradamus therefor can't be a prophet no matter how pious he lives or whether he does miracles. He can't be a prophet even if he prophecy exactly in concurrance with what the prophet Muhammad taught.

Old Man, the reason I had asked whether you know about Jinn is that we believe some knowledge of the future can be communicated to humans through Jinn. Prophets do not make prophecies of their own (which I believe would be the same in Christianity), however the source of their prophecy is Allah SWT or God whereas other people who claim prophecies are not always inpired by Allah SWT but through Jinn as well. Now since their source is not Allah SWT there is no guarantee that the prophecy will come true even though the news being commincated through the Jinn may very well be true. Think of it this way when you hear something first hand from someone you no doubts about what you heard whereas when a third person comes and communicates it to you it may very well be true but it is not guaranteed to be true.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

The end of the divine message does not mean there will be no new prophets who are sent to establish. However the end of new prophets certainly implies there will be no new divine message.

maybe i dont understand u fully on what u r trying to say here…
but the majority of muslims (well almost all of those who really ‘muslim’) believe that no prophet shall come after Muhammad (saw)…
Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet to be appointed by Allah and shall not be succeeded by any other prophet…
just as no new divine law shall be sent, no new prophet will also come…

and Isa (as) will be sent back, but not as a prophet, but as a follower of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw)…
he second coming shall not be as a prophet…

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@armughal

maybe i dont understand u fully on what u r trying to say here.... but the majority of muslims (well almost all of those who really 'muslim') believe that no prophet shall come after Muhammad (saw).... Muhammad (saw) was the last prophet to be appointed by Allah and shall not be succeeded by any other prophet.... just as no new divine law shall be sent, no new prophet will also come....

and Isa (as) will be sent back, but not as a prophet, but as a follower of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw).... he second coming shall not be as a prophet....

I totally agree with you. That is implicit in what I said, if there is no new prophet coming that naturally implies there is no new divine message coming either. This is my understanding if there is some other then please state it.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

The end of the divine message does not mean there will be no new prophets who are sent to establish.

sorry, i mistook this statement of yours…
but on a second reading now, in context to ur conversation with LB, i realize that i did misunderstand it…

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Prophets) - Islam and Christianity

@armughal

sorry, i mistook this statement of yours.... but on a second reading now, in context to ur conversation with LB, i realize that i did misunderstand it....

Not to worry, we all make mistakes. I do it more than you.