Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

But you would not have any difficulty with it?

Its irrelevant.

@The Old Man

What does the fact that Jesus is annointed mean? What is an annointed more than other people? Why is it stated that Jesus alone, from the rest of mankind, is annointed? Annointed for what purpose?

One of reasons for using this word is because it was very common practice during the days of Jesus PBUH that Kings or leaders were annointed i.e. consecrated with oil. It was a ritual practice of those days. It simply is stating that Jesus PBUH would be appointed by consecration in line with the rituals of those days. Such practices did not prevail during the Prophet SAW time. The word has no far reaching implications beyond this.

@The Old Man

Explain more on what the Word is. You are not really clear. In the Bible Jesus is also called the Word of God with the specific reasen of being the spoken/geniune Word/speach of God. What does it mean in Islam?

OldMan, you are trying to confuse yourself here. The explanation I gave was a simple as it can get. This is why we say Christianity is so lost. Simple things are debated so much that they are blown out of their context and no longer retain any sense. This is exactly what you are doing here. Is understanding that Allah SWT gave Mary his Word for the glad tidings of Jesus PBUH difficult to understand. Its in plain english. Have you not ever gone around giving someone your word to do this or that. Its like you are promising something. What is so complicated in understanding that. Why don't you just accept the explanation as it simply is instead of debating it so much that both debaters loose track of what they were talking about and both end up confused.

@The Old Man

BUT, the prophet Muhammad was not "holy=pious", because the Qur'an doesn't mention it? Why was the word "holy" used w.r.t. Jesus and not the prophet Muhammad? Does it mean Jesus did not sin?

The bible does not explicitly state that Jesus PBUH was greater than Muhammad PBUH. So this means that he was not, right? Your fighting with words instead of trying to make sense.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

1. There is only one Spirit of God and he is not an angel since the word "the" is used and he is mentioned separate from the angels. - Surah 97v4; 70v4

97:4 in hosts descend in it the angels,Asad(97,3) bearing divine inspirationAsad(97,4) by their Sustainer's leave; from all [evil] that may happen.
Don't see wat you are talking about from this verse.

70:4 all the angels and all the inspiration [ever granted to man] ascend unto HimAsad(70,4) [daily,] in a day the length whereof is [like] fifty thousand years…Asad(70,5)
Again no idea what you are refering to here.

@The Old Man

2. The Spirit breathed into people can't be Jibreel because it is Allah's breath. - Surah 66v12; 32v9; 15v29

It means endowed a soul of his own as gift from Allah SWT or say breath of life. It is not Jibreel.

@The Old Man

3. According to Surah 19v17-19 Jibreel is but a mere angel or messenger not the Spirit of God. Surely Jibreel was the angel referred to.

Yes Jibreel is an angel. What do you mean not Spirit of God, the arabic word used is Rooh, which is used for Jibreel (Ruh ul Quddus) and it also means Spirit or messenger.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

1. You told me in #51 in bold letter Jesus was created from God, but in #74 its Jesus=Creator, which one is right.

God Almighty, and we certainly do not know all about Him, created/made from Himself Jesus BEFORE any other creations were made. (Some Christian theologians/scholars might differ with me on this point) Therefor it is stated in the Bible that Jesus was God Almighty’s “firstborn” (Col.1v15-16 & Hebrew 1v6-9). God Almighty, before He created anything, in His foreknowledge of what will happen, decided that He needed a part of Him that can materially and physically interact with His future creation. He then made Jesus from Himself. After this, God Almighty as the Tri-une God created the universe, angels, etc.

Interesting what Heb.1v6-9 further state in verse 6 that the angels had to worship Jesus (not just kneel down as per Qur’an). Verse 8 to 9 is a quote from Psalm 45v6-7: But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever…therefor God, your God, has set you above…”. God calling the Son God…

2. If you can explain to me the days after Crucifixion of Jesus, thats confusing the 3 days and 3 night and it says with similarity to Jonah. You know this is the most asked question, I have heard from the Islam scholars but I want to hear an explanation from the horses mouth, as I feel this is the way of logically looking at things.

Well let this horse try and explain .

This is where USResident state that one needs to grasp the terminology and idiom of those who write things. The Jews (and Romans) counted any part of a day as a full day (also nights). We see the same way of speech in 2Cron.10v5-10, Esther 4v15-5v1, Moses’ fast in eX.34v28, Jonah 1v17, etc. When the date is the 10’th, the Romans would state that the 20’th is 11 days off (the starting date will be included). The Jewish leaders also recognised the idiom of the time by insisting that the Romans place a guard for three days counting from the Friday to the Sunday because Jesus said he will rise up on the third day (in English one would expect this to happen on the Monday). You can read more here of which I only give a small quote: The Roman Republic, like the Etruscans, used a “market week” of eight days, marked as A to H in the calendar. A market was held on the eighth day. For the Romans, who counted inclusively, this was every ninth day, hence the market became called “nundinae”

For many people not understanding the idiom, it sound silly and downright contradictionary and even an impossibility. Fot people understanding the idiom and way the Jews and Romans counted, there is no problem. I suppose it all depends whether one wants to argumantative or teachable.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

^ Thanks TOM thats good, i wanted to know the truth somehow i felt there must be some explanation, well thats good.
Thanks.

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Old man tell me one thing, Has Jesus ever said Himself that he is part of God and one of the three manifestations or the scholars have all derived it basing on the metaphors used?

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Let us focus on these two points for this discussion so we are all on the same page (Oldman, Seminole, USresident, SlaveOfAllah, MazharKaleemFan, UsmanShahid and ArMughal).

1 - Why do muslims not accept Jesus PBUH as God? And only a Prophet of Allah SWT. And why do muslims accept Muhammad SAW as the last messenger of Allah SWT?

2 - Why do Christians believe that Jesus PBUH should be worshipped as a partener to God (whatever he may be Son or equal)? Why do the Christians not think of Jesus PBUH as a prophet of Allah SWT and why do they not accept Muhammad SAW as the last messenger of Allah SWT?

What are the basis for deriving these claims of muslims and christians?

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

1 - Why do muslims not accept Jesus PBUH as God? And only a Prophet of Allah SWT. And why do muslims accept Muhammad SAW as the last messenger of Allah SWT?

Both use different religious scriptures, Qur’an for Muslims and Bible for Christians. They can’t meet as the individually scriptures differ.

2 - Why do Christians believe that Jesus PBUH should be worshipped as a partener to God (whatever he may be Son or equal)?

Jesus should not be worshipped as a “partner” of God because he is not a “partner”. Jesus IS God manifested in a physical and natural human body.

This is where the discussion between Islam and Christianity breaks down. Islam teach that Jesus is a “partner” to God as per Qur’an, while Christians teach that Jesus IS God manifested in a human body. Huge difference.

While there remain this difference in view, the two faiths won’t agree. The two faiths reason about different issues.

Why do the Christians not think of Jesus PBUH as a prophet of Allah SWT

Although Jesus is THE Prophet, King and Priest for Christians, he is viewed as the manifestation of God in a human body.

and why do they not accept Muhammad SAW as the last messenger of Allah SWT?

Because the prophet Muhammads teachings is contrary to what Jesus taught. Logic dictates that Christians should rather believe/accept the teachings from God directly (Jesus viewed as God) rather than a human who received his teachings via an angel from God. (Not being blasphemous but the only way to indicate the difference).

What are the basis for deriving these claims of muslims and christians?

In the case of Muslims, the Qur’an. Muslims believe the Qur’an to be perfect and therefor the last word on these matters.

In the case of Christians, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Christians accept the writings of people that spend time with Jesus and was martyred for their believes as adaquate especially since the Holy Spirit of God confirms the teachings up to this date and age.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@MKF

Old man tell me one thing, Has Jesus ever said Himself that he is part of God and one of the three manifestations or the scholars have all derived it basing on the metaphors used?

Jesus said it himself as per some of my previous posts.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Don’t see wat you are talking about from this verse.

From Yusuf Ali:

Surah 97:4 Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by God’s permission, on and errant.

Surah 70:4 The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him…

Are Yusuf Ali’s translation a BAD one? Should I get rid of it? Which English translation is the more correct?

It means endowed a soul of his own as gift from Allah SWT or say breath of life. It is not Jibreel.

Understand.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Jesus said it himself as per some of my previous posts.

Quran says the following:

Quran 5:116-117
*And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden.
I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things. *

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@armughal

Quran says the following…

armughul, exactly why Islam and Christians will never see eye-to-eye on this issue. We use two different scriptures that excludes each other with references and teachings.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

USResident, I believe we are at the end of this part of the discussion. It is evident that the two religions are miles apart because of different reference points and they can never agree.

The next section was not part of your original 9-point list but I feel it has a major impact on the two faiths and their impact on the followers. I will start the new thread.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Both use different religious scriptures, Qur'an for Muslims and Bible for Christians. They can't meet as the individually scriptures differ.

Agreed.

@The Old Man

Jesus should not be worshipped as a "partner" of God because he is not a "partner". Jesus IS God manifested in a physical and natural human body.

This is where the discussion between Islam and Christianity breaks down. Islam teach that Jesus is a "partner" to God as per Qur'an, while Christians teach that Jesus IS God manifested in a human body. Huge difference.

While there remain this difference in view, the two faiths won't agree. The two faiths reason about different issues.

Although Jesus is THE Prophet, King and Priest for Christians, he is viewed as the manifestation of God in a human body.

The question remains why should Jesus PBUH be worshipped at all. Worship is the right of God only.

@The Old Man

Because the prophet Muhammads teachings is contrary to what Jesus taught. Logic dictates that Christians should rather believe/accept the teachings from God directly (Jesus viewed as God) rather than a human who received his teachings via an angel from God. (Not being blasphemous but the only way to indicate the difference).

Literally correct however figuretively incorrect. We believe Quran is from God so we have his teachings. Quran are not Muhammad SAW inspired scriptures. Apart from doctrinal differences I think a lot is common in principle concerning humans.

1 - Both pray
2 - Both give charity
3 - Both are commanded to be just
4 - Both believe in reckoning
5 - Both believe to enjoin good and forbid evil
6 - Both believe in justice
7 - Both believe in social welfare
8 - Both believe in peace

@The Old Man

In the case of Muslims, the Qur'an. Muslims believe the Qur'an to be perfect and therefor the last word on these matters.

In the case of Christians, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Christians accept the writings of people that spend time with Jesus and was martyred for their believes as adaquate especially since the Holy Spirit of God confirms the teachings up to this date and age.

Agreed however Quran is accessible to all and perceivable where as the Holy spirit is not. You have not been able to explain how people come about doing good deeds without even believing in the Holy Spirit.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

USResident, I believe we are at the end of this part of the discussion. It is evident that the two religions are miles apart because of different reference points and they can never agree.

The next section was not part of your original 9-point list but I feel it has a major impact on the two faiths and their impact on the followers. I will start the new thread.

I will bow out of this thread and particpate in the other thread. Others are welcome to carry on with this thread if they choose to.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

The question remains why should Jesus PBUH be worshipped at all. Worship is the right of God only.

The question from a Christian perspective should rather be: “Why not?”, since Jesus is God, or at least the human manifestation of God. God requires worship no matter if visible OR invisible.

Apart from doctrinal differences I think a lot is common in principle concerning humans.

Minor agreements, correct. But MAJOR differences where Jesus taught himself as Saviour, the Holy Spirit, Baptism, Holy Communion, grace, etc. Muhammad again taught such different MAJOR things as Hajj, Ka’bah, disciplined/rigerous laws, Qur’an as perfect, etc.

Agreed however Quran is accessible to all and perceivable where as the Holy spirit is not.

The Holy Spirit is available for anyone who want’s Him. He is our direct link to God, being part of God Almighty.

You have not been able to explain how people come about doing good deeds without even believing in the Holy Spirit.

Wasn’t asked for an explanation till now!

God breathed a part of His Spirit into everyone and made us with a moral personality. The part of the Spirit in each of us longs for some Being to worship - the difference between us and animals. Both have souls, we have a spirit as well. It is this moral personality and the bit of God’s Spirit in each of us that make the normal person, who is more pliable, that start to listen to the Holy Spirit’s proddings. Ultimately it can even lead to the person’s acceptance of God and the New Birth.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

^ if all of us have the spirit, then why not worship other humans, apar from Jesus (as)????

why is it so difficult for u ppl to understand that God is free from any such needs of having a son or a wife....
a son is a successor, and if u have a successor, it means u will "end" and thinking God has an end, is ironic to say the least....

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

The question from a Christian perspective should rather be: "Why not?", since Jesus is God, or at least the human manifestation of God. God requires worship no matter if visible OR invisible.

Why not, because Jesus PBUH had the traits of humans with few exceptions. God became limited in the form of Jesus PBUH or ungodly as UsmanShahid had mentioned before. Can you imagine humans dragging around and torturing God as was done to Jesus PBUH? What an insult would that be to God and how indiginfied to believe that is what God would want.

@The Old Man

God breathed a part of His Spirit into everyone and made us with a moral personality. The part of the Spirit in each of us longs for some Being to worship - the difference between us and animals. Both have souls, we have a spirit as well. It is this moral personality and the bit of God's Spirit in each of us that make the normal person, who is more pliable, that start to listen to the Holy Spirit's proddings. Ultimately it can even lead to the person's acceptance of God and the New Birth.

Ah! Truly amazing how the same concept is mentioned in Islam but really how it is not accompanied with a spirit and is simple and pure in its understanding. Its called Fitrah, innate human nature, which tells us about good or bad and God and gives us morality. Humans are born with an innate belief in God as we say born muslims but then they start picking and chooses and creating their own Gods against what was in their human nature.

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Old man! Theotokosis term is used for Mary meaning the mother of God. According to Wikipedia it does not mean that being the mother of God she becomes God herself as you said, however some protestants according to same article have alleged that catholics adore mary to the level of GOD. So much explanation has been given about how can she be mother of God without being God herself. Surely there must be some thinking on these lines which are now denied by the church.

I think now the concept of trinity been refined however in the earlier times it was quite hazy and devoid of logics, with the passage of times now people in papacy have generated some logics on manifestations etc.

I asked you a question whether he said himself being God and you said in the posts above. All the post above are the statements where he either says me and god are one and read in context you can take it both ways. i asked about conclusive evidence from Bible where he explains that how i was manifested and so and so.

All these are the extrapolations of the thinkers after the Jesus

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Why not, because Jesus PBUH had the traits of humans with few exceptions. God became limited in the form of Jesus PBUH or ungodly as UsmanShahid had mentioned before. Can you imagine humans dragging around and torturing God as was done to Jesus PBUH? What an insult would that be to God and how indiginfied to believe that is what God would want.

That’s why it is written: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned., and Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumblingblock to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

That's why it is written: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned., and Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumblingblock to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. **For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.**

Jesus PBUH in his wisdom being a man could not then represent the foolishness of God and being strongest could not come close to the weakness of God meaning he can't be God but definitely a Prophet if he were human. Gods traits cannot be encapsulated in a man as the verse says. Still this did not answer the questions.