Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

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This is probably one of the most important threads in this series of dialogue threads we have been having the last couple of weeks. I am sure we will have dialogues, debates and disagreements here. Need I remind again, keep it clean. Everyone has done a marvelous at oberving patience and respect and regard for differing view points. Everyone is welcome to participate.

For muslims Muhammad SAW is the last messenger of Allah SWT who was revealed the last holy scripture i.e. Quran, among the Abrahamic religions. In short, Muhammad SAW mission was to re-establish the Monotheism of Allah SWT along with conveying the final Shariah for mankind.

For Christians, everything in their religion depends on Jesus PBUH. Jesus PBUH is the Son of God in Trinity. His mission was to save mankind by sacrificing himself as atonement to the original sin.

Muslims do not believe in this and regard Jesus PBUH as a prophet of Allah SWT who came to continue Mose PBUH teachings. For muslims he was not a God. Muslims do not believe in Trinity, original sin or salvation through atonement.

Christians do not accept Muhammad SAW as a prophet yet believe that prophets can still come. According to my discussions here Christians believe in One God but have a Trinitarian concept of God intertwined with Jesus PBUH instead of the Monotheistic concept of God as in Islam.

So my question to Christians would be plainly put as “Did Jesus come to help them get it together or did he come to get it together for them”?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

USResident, very well summarised. Makes it almost impossible to discuss further because you pointed out the different points of believe so good.

[quote]
So my question to Christians would be plainly put as "Did Jesus come to help them get it together or did he come to get it together for them"?
[/quote]

You will have to elaborate a little more, USResident. Don't know what response you require.

With respect to the prophet Muhammad, his teaching as per the Qur'an (and I am not even considering the ahadiths) is so far removed from what Christians are taught, as per Jesus teaching, that Christians can only accept the prophet Muhammad NOT to be a prophet of God and that the Qur'an is just a religious book written by someone creating his own religion as per new enlightenment.

Islam, on the other hand, also seeing the differences, HAVE to claim that all New Testament teaching is suspect and corrupt as 90% differs with the Qur'an. (Incidentally, the Qur'an never mentions that the New Testament is wrong/corrupt. Whenever corruptness in scriptures are mentioned, it refers to the Old Testament of Judaism).

It leaves the two religions at loggerheads with almost NO agreements. While Christianity can relate to the Jewish faith and even use their scriptures as is, the same can't be said of the prophet Muhammad's teachings. That is why I believe that the prophet Muhammad, as per Surah 2:151, came with a complete NEW teaching and does not build on the other two Abrahamaic religions, even though the God all three worship is the same.

It was very clear to me, as I read the Qur'an, that the prophet Muhammad NEVER had the New Testament either read or explained to him while he lived. He makes almost NO mention of any teaching or incidents from the New Testament scriptures other than Zachariah and the virgin birth of Jesus.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Hmm...I find this ironic since Muslims and Jews do tend to see eye-to-eye on many things, and at the very least each finds the other's faith familar to some large extent. This, at least, from conversations with Orthodox Jews I knew...

If antyhing, between the three, Chrisitanity is the divergent faith...

[quoe]
It was very clear to me, as I read the Qur'an, that the prophet Muhammad NEVER had the New Testament either read or explained to him while he lived. He makes almost NO mention of any teaching or incidents from the New Testament scriptures other than Zachariah and the virgin birth of Jesus.
[/quote]

Or, it simply was not relevent.

Muslims distinguish between the Words Jesus spoke, and what was actually recorded in the NT. For obvious theological reasons, you don't have the luxury of making that distinction.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

There are many things where the three faiths agree. BUT, there are more on which they disagree.

Because Christianity take the Jewish scriptures as is, it is logical that these two faith agree on major points. Because Islam reverts back to a more legalistic approach, there are major things they agree with the Jewish faith, but because Islam basically reject the Jewish scriptures, there are also major differences. For example: Islam only prevents swine from consumption, Jews have MANY more stuff they can’t eat. One can state that ALL Kosher is Halaal but not all Halaal is Kosher.

I believe these discussions have pointed out some of the major differences between the two faiths. I intentionaly pointed out during the discussions where the Jewish and Christian faiths diverge from Islam.

Well, depends on oneself, I suppose.

True, BUT the prophet frequently do refer to the People of the Gospels and one would expect that more would be said about the teaching of Jesus as the prophet Muhammad had a great regard to Jesus. More is written about other prophet’s life than Jesus’ (excluding Jesus birth). Does the ahadiths add more?

“Obviously theological reasons”? I have read through the New Testament countless times, how much have you gone through? How can you then reason upon a scripture just on what other people say about the scripture? I think I DO have the luxury of discussing the Bible and the Qur’an BECAUSE I HAVE read both!

In fact, I would like to know how many of the people reading this thread and responding in the thread, HAVE read the New Testament - just the New Testament? I took the time to read the Qur’an so that I could better understand from which base Islam reason w.r.t. different issues/topics. Surely one wanting to reason with a Christian would at least try and get a grasp of Christian’s scriptures? I think one can read through the New Testament as just a reading exercise in something like one week.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Before USR, responds i wuld just make this point clear

1) Quran mentions, not regarding the **People of Gospels, **but regarding Injeel which was revealed to Jesus pbuh, and it was only one book which was revealed to Jesus and not Gospels as in the Quran its not mentioned Anjeel.
So the words of Allaah to Jesus, thats the injeel was revealed and since Allaah is talking about this in the Quran is referring to injeel and not the Gospels the translators have used the words for a certain Purpose.

2) SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Here in the Noble Quran, point was made that the Christians follow the Bible in which they get the story crucifixion, and the Quran calls it conjecture (corruption).

But I dont think so you are claiming that"The Quran claims that the Bible is 100% pure and 100% uncorrupt and 100% Truth". I hope not.

Well The Old Man, If you couls summarize 5 major points, why you dont believe in Prophet Mohammed as I usually say, using Quran as a reference.
But I prefer, you can wait till USR responds.
Thank You.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Did you read what I wrote in the discussion of Scriptures about this reference?

USResident tried to get away by stating that the Injeel was not a book but an unwritten teaching/gospel. I pointed out to him that the way it is written in the Qur’an actually let a person think it is a book not a verbal teaching/gospel. Your point 1 actually confirms my position on this.

Jesus NEVER wrote a book and NEVER asked/commanded his disciples to write one. As I said then and now, the prophet Muhammad was mistaken on this point - not trying to be blashphemous or libelous.

As above pointed out, you can now see how wrong this assumption is.

Sorry, I should have mentioned that the Qur’an mentions Jesus’ birth and death. Nothing in between.

The problem is that the death of Jesus is so well documented that no one can disagree (except if you are a Muslim and HAVE to believe the Qur’an above ALL other facts and proofs) that Jesus WAS killed. In the discussion on Scriptures I gave two renown historians in the time of Jesus that DO mention the crucifiction, and then there are various Roman documents also referring to the fact.

The Qur’an doesn’t and can’t make the claim. It doesn’t because it just does not make a statement saying the Gospels are authentic. It can’t because the prophet Muhammad had no idea what was written in the New Testament. It does though by NOT making a statement to the negative, open the view that the New Testament “might” be correct. This again can’t be true because if it is true, then the Qur’an is incorrect and not perfect. I therefor understands why Muslims (not the Qur’an but Muslims by themselves) HAVE to say the New Testament is incorrect/corrupt. The point I wish to make is that the Qur’an does not have this view. Are there any references to this issue in the ahadith?

I will come back to you because I will need to quickly flip through my notes…

Look, I know he is the boss, but he did say others may contribute in this thread :slight_smile:

~*~ Maira Sub Say Pyara Dushman ~*~
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

I don’t state that the following is the only points.

  1. The prophet Muhammad taught that all teaching/messages pre-Qur’anic were corrupted and that he brings “New Knowledge” (Surah 2:151). In accepting the prophet to be correct, I have to assume that he is 100% correct and inspired to give a perfect book (which I can’t fully understand because I am not fluent in Arabic). That is dependend on Faith in the prophet Muhammad’s abilities while throwing away all other scripture.

  2. Surah 2:111-112 differs with what Jesus taught about faith in him being the way of salvation. Jesus was definitely according to the Bible NOT “no more than a Messenger” as per Surah 5:75. I therefor need to choose between works that will save me, or faith and works. If works are not enough, I am lost. If faith and works are needed, I am OK and all of Islam has a problem.

  3. It is clear, as I did mention, that the prophet Muhammad has NO idea of the teaching of Jesus. How can I follow someone that does not have the ability to at least state the errors that the New Testament has (except for the Trinity thing)? I have to follow those that died confessing their faith as being correct, AND they knew Jesus personally.

  4. I relate beter to the message/teaching attributed to Jesus as per the New Testament. Often in the Qur’an there is reference to teaching and exhortation to war e.g. Surah 2:190, 8:65 & 67 & 70, 9:3-5 & 29. Jesus laid more emphasis on a subservient, loving relationships and gave almost no teaching about war and retribution, and definitely NOT in the harshness as expressed in the Qur’an, e.g. Surah 5:33,38. The prophet’s teaching gives rise to war, even in his own time, the teaching of Jesus try and prevent war (except for those hell bend on forcing their religion down other’s throat).

  5. The MAJOR point might be because I was “reborn” as stated in the New Testament and filled with the Holy Spirit. I NEVER EVER want to be back to my old self. The prophet Muhammad does not teach about this indwelling of the Holy Spirit and becoming a new person. It is absolutely impossible for me to accept less than what I have at present. Because of this real experience, I KNOW what is written in the New Testament and the rest of the Bible WORKS and is not just mere words.

  6. Major conflicts between the prophet’s Qur’an and the Bible.

  7. Various religious practices and symbols as per the prophet’s teaching is totally foreign to Judaism and Christianity. It points to a religion more localized and which incorporated many practices/symbols from around the prophet not necessary proven to bring God closer to the people who worships Him.

  8. The way I understand sin and its impact on mankind is more feasable and logical to me.

  9. The death of Jesus documented in authoritive documents. It is purely by faith one can believe a person that basically “change” history 600 years later. I would again rather believe people that lived in the time, met Jesus personally, and died proclaiming that Jesus died and rose again - not one and two, but hundreds, even thousands.

  10. In general, when reading the Qur’an, one seems to get the idea that the prophet Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians and used some of what he learned from them in the Qur’an. Unfortunately it does seem as if he only had good access to Genesis and Exodus while some of the other stories were told him e.g. Solomon, Jonah, Job, etc. Very little was apparently available to him from the Christians except a little on Jesus’ birth but none of Jesus’ teachings. How can I follow someone not well versed in the religions he state he is correcting?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

i would suggest you to read
the
"what the bilble says about Mohammad ( PBUH) the prophet of islam "
by Ahmad Deedat

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

I am sure you do not mean that differences between jews & Christians are minor in nature and merely no more than misunderstanding as you are talking about 66 books which contain Torah & Bible. If so than i am surprised that i thought them to be quite different religions.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

I were referring to differences between books in Bible. Judaism and Christianity differ greatly because Judaism only view Jesus as a “good” man.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

so do we Muslims, but rather more than a good man, a prophet of Allah who had so many miracles under his sleeves.

We believe he was born by a virgin mother, as Quran refers to him always as "Issah Ibn Maryam" Issah (Jesus. if you spell Jesus through any pronunciation guide less english you will pronounce Issah) son of Maryam. where as Arab lineage was through father.

What is your belief about him, Frankly i have only heard about trinity in our books of debates where they tell the christians say, one in three & three in one. How do you define trinity?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

You consist of at least a Body and Soul according to the Qur’an. The Soul lives inside your Body. You are therefor a single person with two entities sharing the same space. Are there conflict between them? Yes, there are. Sometimes you (soul = intellect) know you have to do something, and the body is weak or sick or tired. Sometimes the body is willing and the soul don’t know how, is tired, or too emotional. In general the body should listen and submit to the soul (intellect). Not submitting leads normally to sin in the form of addiction, etc.

Judaism and Christianity believes humans to be made up of a body, soul and spirit. We are taught this from the Bible. Humans are mainly made up of water and no life, as far as we know, can exist without water. Water is one substance but can be manifested in three different substances, each with its own structure and chemical differences although all three will still be referred to as H2O. At the tripple point of water, all these substances exists in equilibrium: solid/ice, liquid/water, gas.

In the Qur’an there is often mention of God’s Holy Spirit. Now I know that Muslim scholars prefer to understand the Spirit of God to be the Angel Gabriel but they are wrong as the Gabriel can’t do the things the Qur’an say the Spirit does. The Spirit is therefor of God or rather part of God. One therefor can also state that God is at least two entities inside a single one God Almighty. Each of these entities, same as yours, have a specific function. Both can be referred to as God, worshipped, and together they form God Almighty.

Christianity believes, as per the Bible and Jesus’ teachings, that God Almighty exist of Body (Jesus), Soul (Father) and Spirit (Holy Spirit). All make up one single entity called God Almighty. Each have specific functions. Only one God manifested in three entities.

Christians believe in a Tri-une God - one God manifested in three different entities. The prophet Muhammad misunderstood and thought Christians believed in three different Gods - Tri-theos. I think what caused the confusion is that Islam can’t accept that God can manifest Himself in the form of a human. One should realize though that the Almighty God can do whatever He please. If God created/made His hand to appear to humans, humans can call the hand “God” because it is part of God. If they worship God’s Hand, they are still worshipping God or at least a part of God.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah mentioned to the Jews, the third entity that make up God Almighty, the Body of God that can be manifested in the known universe, obedient to the Soul (or Father), existed before the creation of the universe and helped with the creation.

As far as I know, Islam don’t say why Jesus needed to be born from a virgin (correct me if I am wrong). Christians teach that it was the only way Jesus could be born sinless, a requirement in order to negate Adam’s original sin, which has infected all mankind since.

Looking for Rishtas? Post here.
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

interesting!!!

Well i am not sure if i can pass any argument over what you have said. Human body is a carrier of the soul as far as i understand, that is why it has been promised that on the judgement day a new body will be given to the believers. What matters is the soul. That is why if you are fighting in the way of Allah against an oppressor (jihad) your death is meaningless. it does not convert you from two to one. You stay where you are, only this worldy body goes away. May be the value of this body is no more than a car which transports you to a destination in a travelling, birth to death in this world. That is why Muslims have mostly emphasized that life is akin to a traveller in transit. however this is my theory.

anyway you never commented on the pronunciation of JESUS, except english J is like somewhat middle between I & Y ,and last S is silent as it is not followed by a vowel so the pronunciation is Issa, only once the world was written in English, they started pronouncing it as JESUS. I have studied french a bit and i have taken help from french pronunciation guide. Do you agree? (Not to score any point, just an off hand conversation)

What about the thing i heard that as GOD is so pure, he never know the sufferings of people on earth so he had to come on earth in Human form in shape of JESUS. Do you believe this as well. Seems a bit awkward to an outsider.

Islam has given no reason for Hazrat Issa (JESUS) p.b.u.h birth from a virgin. true as far as i know. I think it was to show a miracle. He was full of miracles. He walked on water, cured people, made dead alive, this was one of the long list of miracles he was given to the most stubborn nation on earth i.e. Jews.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Scientifically, I do agree water can be in 3 forms solid, liquid and gas… Ice, water and vapour. But scientifically, we also know that the component of water remains the same. H*2*O - 2 atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen. The components remain the same; the constituents remain the same - the forms keep on changing; there is no problem.

Let us check with the concept of ‘trinity’- Concept of trinity *– Father, son, and holy ghost – *Form… they say… ‘Form changes.

for the sake of argument, we agree. Does the component change?

God and holy Ghost are made of spirit - Human beings are made of flesh *and bones -
**They are not the same*. Human beings require to eat - God does not require to eat, to survive -
They are not the same.

And this is testified by Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, himself in the Gospel of Luke,
Chapter No. 24, Verse No. 36 to 39. He says that… ‘Behold my hands and feet - Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ He says… ‘Behold my hands and feet - Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ And he gave his hands, and they saw, and they were overjoyed. And he said that… ‘Do you have any meat to eat ?’ And they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb - And he ate.To prove what? That he was God? To prove that he was not God. He ate, and he is flesh and bones - A spirit has got no flesh and bones. This proves that it is scientifically not possible that Father, son and Holy Ghost - Father, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and Holy Ghost, is Almighty God.

And the concept of ‘trinity’, - the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible.

The word trinity is not there in the Bible - But it is there in the Qur’an.

Qur’an says in Surah Nisa*,* Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 171, it says…. (Arabic)….Do not say trinity…. (Arabic)…desist stop it! It is better for you.’ Trinity is also there in Surah Maidah, Chapter No.5, Verse No.73, which says …(Arabic)…They are doing ‘Kufr’ - They are blaspheming - those who say that Allah in 3 in one - Is a triune God.

Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God - The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible. The only verse which is closest to the concept of ‘trinity’, is the 1st Epistle of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.7, which says… ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the holy ghost, and these 3 are one.

But if you read the Revised Standard Version, revised by 32 scholars… Christian scholars, of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different co-operative denominations, they say… ‘*This verse of the Bible - 1st Epistle of John, Chapter 5 Verse No.7 is an interpolation, is a concoction, is a fabrication’ *-

It was thrown out of the Bible. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed *Divinity*.

There is not a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him says… ‘I am God’ - or where he says… ‘Worship me’. Infect if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Chapter No.14, Verse No.28 - he said…‘My Father is greater than I’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.10, Verse No.29…‘My Father is greater than all’; Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.12, Verse No.28…‘I cast out devils with the spirit of God’; Gospel of Luke, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20…‘I with the finger of God, cast out devil’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.30… ‘I can of my own self do nothing’…‘I can of my own self do nothing - As I hear, I judge and my judgement is just, for I seek not my own will, but the will of my Father.’ Anyone who says… ‘Not my will but God’s will’ - he is a Muslim.

Muslim means the person who submits his’ will to almighty God. Jesus Christ peace be upon him said…‘Not my will but God’s will.’He was a Muslim - and he was Alhamdulillah, one of the mightiest messengers of God.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

based on your theory if we say that Jesus was God as he was born from a virgin and only this way Jesus coulb be born sinless
then you should say that Adam was bigger God then Jesus as he was born without the father and the mother , while the Jesus has the mother so Adam is more sinless and Bigger God

on the basis of your theory you should say there are 4 God ie including the Adam
but i know you like your insistors don't admit this

so this theory is nothing more then a rubbish

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

[quote]

  1. The prophet Muhammad taught that all teaching/messages pre-Qur'anic were corrupted and that he brings "New Knowledge" (Surah 2:151). In accepting the prophet to be correct, I have to assume that he is 100% correct and inspired to give a perfect book (which I can't fully understand because I am not fluent in Arabic). That is dependend on Faith in the prophet Muhammad's abilities while throwing away all other scripture.

[/quote]

Well I have learnt Arabic and still a beginner, and few words when I read the Quran. The above verse is frm translation of Abdullaah YOusuf Ali, and its completely wrong or misunderstood from your side, no where does it provide wiht new knowledge and the explanation is for the Arabs the Makkans read the complete verse,

[quote]

***SHAKIR:* Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know
**
[/quote]

Clearly states Messenger amongst you so where was Messenger born in Makkah and there were no jews and christians so Allaah in his divine knowledge never revealed this verses to Makkans coz there were Idol worshippers, so the verse is completely revealed to the Mushriks of Makkah.

Here the author uses the word communicaton but its sign as in Arabic its clearly mentioned Ayatina so its sign.

Allaah later in his Divine knowledge is revealed the book thats the Quran thats kitaba, then alhikmata thats wisdom(These two meanings can be explained in great detail) then the verse ends ma lam takoono taaAalamoon. Clearly starts what knowledge you did not have. Let me take it to basics, ma is what lam which you know no and Aalamoona is knowledge since its referring to the third person its taaAalamoona.

1) No where it mentions thast this verse were concerning to the Jews and Christians.
2) New knowledge no wehre mentioned.

[quote]

  1. Surah 2:111-112 differs with what Jesus taught about faith in him being the way of salvation. Jesus was definitely according to the Bible NOT “no more than a Messenger” as per Surah 5:75. I therefor need to choose between works that will save me, or faith and works. If works are not enough, I am lost. If faith and works are needed, I am OK and all of Islam has a problem.

[/quote]

I feel you skipped the next verse this answers the above 2 verses, thats more then enough a requirement.

Allaah mentions ask the Ahle Kitaab, thats People of the Scriptres Qul Haatoo Burhanukum in Kuntum Saadiqeen, tahts Bring me the proof if you truthful thats for both Jews and Christians.
Now thats verse 113
*
[quote]
*002.113*The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

[/quote]
*
Now they christians and the Jews are fighting regarding who will go to heaven like the Jews used to say

We are the children of Allah and His loved ones 5:18.

TOM i would like to question you give me a good reason why is a complete chapter in the name of Hazrath Mariam or Mother Mary in the Noble Quran.

Now as you said it regarding faith, so its your choice and Allaah knows the best.

[quote]

  1. It is clear, as I did mention, that the prophet Muhammad has NO idea of the teaching of Jesus. How can I follow someone that does not have the ability to at least state the errors that the New Testament has (except for the Trinity thing)? I have to follow those that died confessing their faith as being correct, AND they knew Jesus personally.

[/quote]

My question would be of faith Allaah knows much better who Jesus was forget about the disciples of Jesus or anyone else but Allaah knows much better who Jesus was. Prophet Mohammed now having exact teachings of Jesus pbuh, i would say no ahadith should clarify some of your doubt.

Like you k now the Revelation to Moses was pretty strict and hard but the revelation to Jesus was more of peace and love as Jesus eased down most of the rules on the Children of Israel, and we believe Jesus was send to Children of Israel.

Well, we do not believe in the New testament as mentioned we believe in teh Injeel not AnaJeel thats the Gospels, we believe that Jesus was revealed one book like the Quran and those words were from his mouth. Well this is a question on faith.

You can read Stories of Prophet by Ibn Katheer, if you're interested PM me for the link. You can read the Story of Jesus pbuh from the Quran and the Ahadith.

[quote]
4. I relate beter to the message/teaching attributed to Jesus as per the New Testament. Often in the Qur’an there is reference to teaching and exhortation to war e.g. Surah 2:190, 8:65 & 67 & 70, 9:3-5 & 29. Jesus laid more emphasis on a subservient, loving relationships and gave almost no teaching about war and retribution, and definitely NOT in the harshness as expressed in the Qur’an, e.g. Surah 5:33,38. The prophet's teaching gives rise to war, even in his own time, the teaching of Jesus try and prevent war (except for those hell bend on forcing their religion down other's throat).
[/quote]

Well Prophet Mohammed had the resilience of Moses and the peace and loving nature of Jesus pbut. Thats the Torah was much more strict and Jesus pbuh eased the rulings brought down by Moses but Prophet Mohammed was given the complete scripture and hence and Character of both of this Messengers of Allaah.

Well we believe Prophet Mohammed in the Quran its a confirmation of all the scriptures thats the Zaboor which was revealed to david pbuh, Torah to Moses and Injeel to Jesus pbut. Well the teaching dont give rise to war, in bible Leviticus i exactly dont know its chapter 24, Jesus is clearly told eye for eye, tooth for a tooth.

Now we knows David was a warrior too, being amongst the Prophets now where does the story of New testament and Old testament coming up.
My belief is at times your stressing so much on the New testaments feels like you deny the Old Testament. I have read it wht my very eyes David went into a war with 7000 horses, etc...Well i dont think this is something too, the semitic religions

[quote]

  1. The MAJOR point might be because I was "reborn" as stated in the New Testament and filled with the Holy Spirit. I NEVER EVER want to be back to my old self. The prophet Muhammad does not teach about this indwelling of the Holy Spirit and becoming a new person. It is absolutely impossible for me to accept less than what I have at present. Because of this real experience, I KNOW what is written in the New Testament and the rest of the Bible WORKS and is not just mere words.

[/quote]

I am confused, please rephrase it.

[quote]

  1. Major conflicts between the prophet's Qur'an and the Bible.

[/quote]

Christians is the only faith which have moved from the concept of Belief in one God and the belief of Christians is the concept of Triune. But Jews believed in One God, Noah, Ibrahim, Lut, David pbut all believed in ONe God. Let me quote the verses of the Quran,
003.065
**YUSUFALI:* Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding? *
003.066
**YUSUFALI:* Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not! *
003.067
**YUSUFALI:* Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. *

[quote]

  1. Various religious practices and symbols as per the prophet's teaching is totally foreign to Judaism and Christianity. It points to a religion more localized and which incorporated many practices/symbols from around the prophet not necessary proven to bring God closer to the people who worships Him.

[/quote]

Can you please explain in more detail with evidence, I wanna know exactly what you are talking about. We believed that Jesus prostrated to God is it something new prostrating to God. We know that Moses fasted and we know he fasted for 40 days extra 10 days coz when Moses wanted to talk to Allaah he thouht his mouth will smell and ate a vegetable so Allaah ordained him to fast for 10 days more.

Well, this verse of the Holy Quran is sufficient for your above argument, unless you dont state specific reasons and provide proof.

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2:285
SHAKIR: The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.

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I want you to tell me what, you mean by the bold part above. YOu have all your answers to point No. 7.

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  1. The way I understand sin and its impact on mankind is more feasable and logical to me.

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I give a small eg the Hippies of 1960 who defied God believed that peace is Sex and Drugs and tahts all is peace to life and disregarded God that was logical for them, here you are talking about your ownself and you find it feasible and logical.

But its otherwise for me as my understanding is different. But at times when an individual follows his/her own desires thinks is following the straight path but its not necessary true.

[quote]

  1. The death of Jesus documented in authoritive documents. It is purely by faith one can believe a person that basically "change" history 600 years later. I would again rather believe people that lived in the time, met Jesus personally, and died proclaiming that Jesus died and rose again - not one and two, but hundreds, even thousands.

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Well as far as I know they are double the books which say that Jesus was not crucified and thes are Christians scholars. Well this is faith. Well let me explain to know the Miracles performed by Jesus, the Crucifixion of Jesus, the Miracles of Moses you have to go back in time.

But the Miracle revealed to Prophet Mohammed thats the Quran, is seen by everyone till date and you do not have to go back in time unlike the other miracles(here I am talking about faith, since i believe spiritually, logically and rationally Quran is the Word of God) and as its faith till eternal. For 1400 years its uncorrupted, and no one has to go back in time.

But for the Christians, Crucifixion of Jesus is the most Important condition for salvation, you get my drift right coz once anyone disbelieves that Christ did not die on Cross they go to hell. But we have the Quran which is the Criterion for Hell or Heaven and is beside us even today we dont have to go 1400 years back to believe in this miracle.

[quote]

  1. In general, when reading the Qur’an, one seems to get the idea that the prophet Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians and used some of what he learned from them in the Qur’an. Unfortunately it does seem as if he only had good access to Genesis and Exodus while some of the other stories were told him e.g. Solomon, Jonah, Job, etc. Very little was apparently available to him from the Christians except a little on Jesus’ birth but none of Jesus’ teachings. How can I follow someone not well versed in the religions he state he is correcting?

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This needs a good explanation,

1) Have you heard something regarding the Makkan and Madani verses. These are the verses revealed in Makkah and Medina respectively. No where will you find the verses revealed regarding Jews and Christians in teh Makkan verses, because in the Makkah at that time they were Idol worshippers so the verses revealved were regarding Monotheism, JD, Angels, Life and Death.

Medina, they were Jews and Christians present so the verses revealed to the Prophet at the right time at the right moment, in the Divine Knowledge of Allaah. Heard about Marketing right, and target market Allaah revealed the verses wrt to situation so that the Practical nature of verses could be Judged.

[quote]

2) 062.002
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-

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This verse was revealed thats Prophet was an unlettered Messenger that he an Ummi, if these words are wrong do you think the oppositon of Islam could keep quiet, they hated the Prophet the most the Musriks of Makkah if this was a lie then they would be the first ones to Jump and call him a liar though many a attempts were made to malign the Prophet.

Now do you think Prophet would wait till the age of 40 to put forward his Genius ability, regarding so many things he spoke considering Prophet's parents died at a very early age about 25, why would a person wait till the age of 40 to show of his talent again proving that he was an Ummi. Ever wondered why Prophet never kept the Quran scribes wiht him and ever wondered why the Quran wasnt compiled during his time, obviously here is the divine will of Allaah.

3) If you feel Prophet was in contact with teh Jews and Christains I agree, but if thats the case how come Prophet also spoke here I am hypothetically stating Prophet spoke regarding People of Hud, thats Chapter 11, The People of Ad and the city of Iram in Chapter 89 verse 7. Saleh the she camel they are also Prophets and Prophet mentioned them considering the Jews and Christians and we believe all the Prophets believed in Submission there will to Allaah/God its surprising he named few aspects different to the bible.

I wonder, why Prophet added this in the Holy Quran if he plagiarised everyting from the Jew and Christian sources. I also wonder even the Quran scientific scriptures regarding embryology, water cycle,etc... are compatible with Modern Science.

4)I wanna ask you do you think it was necessary for Allaah to reveal these verses adn whats the reason behind it. Firstly Allaah wanted us not to deviate unlike the Jews and the Christians and even providing historical view regarding the People of Hud, Noah, Lot, etc.... Allaah is warning us dont deviate liek the Jews and the Christians for eg this verse

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009.034*
**YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites, who in Falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty-
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Again an eg. believe in the Word of God and follow the Prophet, and this is happened in todays world Muslims. Just ponder on each and every Prophet mentioned and the reason behind it. Allaah clearly mentions ponder over the signs of Allaah.

I wanna add I believe in these things coz I believe its the word of Allaah and not 2 years ago, I would wonder even today how come such miracles have happened is it believable but the Quran is a proof of me believing in those aspects. I assume its the same for you to believe in the Bible.

Thanks

18

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Well before all this I wanna ask few questions regarding Jesus wrt belief of the Christians.

I myself cant re read post #17, its huge sorry for the onlookers. But did my best to put in a concise manner.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

From the Islamic Point of view God can’t do every thing
He can’t do un Godly things
If God wants, he can take a human form - But the moment He takes a human form, he ceases to be God. Because God and man, they are two opposites - Man is mortal - God is immortal.

You can’t have a mortal and immortal person at the same time. Man has a beginning - God has got no beginning –

You can’t have a person who has a beginning and no beginning at the same time.

Therefore the Holy Qur’an says…(Arabic)… ‘Verily Allah has power over all things’ - In several places in Surah Baqarah, Chapter 2, V.No.106, In Surah Baqarah, Chapter 2, V.No.109, Surah Baqarah, Chapter 2 V.No.284, Surah Al Imran, Chapter No. 3, V. 29, Surah Nahl, Chapter 16, V.77, Surah Fatir, Chapter 35, V. No.1. And Allah says…(Arabic)

…‘For Verily, Allah has power over all things’ –

But Allah only does Godly things, he doesn’t do ungodly things. Because Qur’an says in Surah Buruj, Chapter 85, V. No.16…‘Allah is the doer of all He intents’ - Whatever Allah intents He can do - But He only intents Godly things.

This theory of God becoming a human form, is called as ‘Anthropomorphism’ - Almighty God taking a human form. And most of the major Religions, sometime or the other, they have in their Philosophy, that God has taken a human form - Some religion once, some several times. And they have a very beautiful logic for that - they say that God Almighty, He is so Pure, He is so Holy, He doesn’t know regarding the feelings of the human being - regarding the shortcomings, the difficulties the human being can have. He is so Holy and Pure - And Allah Subhana Wa Taala doesn’t know how does a human beings feel when he is hurt - How does he feel when he gets into trouble. So therefore, God Almighty came in the form of a human being in this world to set the rules for the human beings.

On the face of it, very good logic - But I tell these people, that if I manufacture a tape recorder, do I have to become a tape recorder, to know what is good or what is bad for the tape recorder? No! I just write an instruction manual - that when you want to play the audio cassette, put in the cassette, press the play button - When you want to stop, press the stop button - When you want to fast forward, press the FF button - Don’t drop it from a height it will get spoilt - Don’t immerse it in water, it will get damaged. I write an instruction manual - I don’t have to became a tape recorder to know what is good or what is bad for the tape recorder. Similarly, when Almighty God is our Creator, He doesn’t have to become a human being to know what is good or what is bad for the human being. He sends an instruction manual and the last and the final instruction manual for the human being, is the holy Qur’an.

The Holy Qur’an is the last and final instruction manual for the human beings - The do’s and don’ts for the human beings. And he need not come down in this world as a human being to give us the instructor manual - What does he do? He chooses a man, amongst men to deliver His message - whom we call as Messengers or Prophets with whom He communicates on a higher level, through the ‘Revelation’. It is so clear cut to any logical person, that God Almighty cannot take human form - Any fool can also understand. That’s the reason the Holy Qur’an says in Surah Baqarah, Chapter 2, Verse No.18….(Arabic)… ‘The deaf, the dumb, the blind - they will not come to the true path’. And the Bible gives the same message in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.13, Verse No.13… ‘Seeing they are see not, hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. Rigveda also gives the same message in Book No. 10, Chapter No. 71, Verse No. 4…‘That though they see the word, they see it not, though they hear the word, they hear not’.

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20

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

The Jewish pronunciation is Yahushua (Hebrew for Saviour or Jehovah is salvation). Jesus is the Greek pronunciation. I have seen some other persons also mentioning on this forum that Issa is closer to the original but they are wrong. English followed the Latin which followed the Greek. Actual English of Joshua would have been closer to home. Doesn’t make any difference how you pronounce his name, as long as you have faith in his name. In the name of Jesus, Yahushua, Jesu, etc. (if the person using the name has a relationship with Jesus) demons have gone out of people.

Also akward to me. Utter nonsense.

Christianity has a reason! :slight_smile: