Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Ok. Just as long as there are no insults I am fine with it then.

Inshallah you will never fine any insulting words from me inshallah

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@usmanshahid

Inshallah you will never fine any insulting words from me inshallah

UsmanShahid, I went back and read your aswers again and Mashallah! very good ones. I think I was wrong to put you in check, I apologize for that. Please carry on. I am waiting for OldMan to return I was starting to get warmed up but he has not returned. Inshallah! He will, he also has an appetite for discussion as much as I have seen so far.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Some interesting replies I can insert here.

@The Old Man

It means that if his disciples look at him, they would see the Father because he is the visible image of the Father.

Or this could be understood this way. Parents live on in the children even after they die, when people see their children and have never met their parents. How, through the values they inculcate in their children. So visible image is not meant to say God, but the valuyes God approves of are inculcated in Jesus PBUH and that is what is meant.

@The Old Man

Wrong tense. I am sure no Muslim will say he came from the Father before he was born. Sorry, no go.

On the contrary very possible. Our souls as we believe were created before our flesh bodies. The souls for Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH existed before they were born on this earth. Being born means you get a human body on this earth not that your soul was created along with your human body.

@The Old Man

You surely are grasping at straws! :) Jesus accepted the worship without reprimanding them. My statement is that Jesus ACCEPTED to be worshipped. What would your reaction be if a Muslim accepts worship? Would you accept to be worshipped?

OldMan, let me describe a simple scenario here. Say I see two people, one of them comes and bows down as if he is worshipping the other person. Then the other person says something and the first person leaves. Now for me being a third person observing that can very likely just pen this down as the second person came and worshipped him and then left. Now in this whole scenario, you cannot claim that the first person said he is God or if did not reprimand the second person implies that his acceptance of his worship, means he is God. Worshipping here does not mean worshipping as offering prayer to the person as we do for God but rather offering a sign of respect. Many people even today perform gestures, which can be equated as those done during worship as a sign of respect or fear however that is no way means someone is God. Were not all the great tyrant rulers of the past i.e. Pharoah worshipped by his people on their time, you will not accept though that Pharoah was God. In his case it was done out of fear and in the case of Jesus PBUH its a gesture of fear for some and respect for some. In the verse in question it was out of fear, which is evident from his reply.

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

well i have seen the logics for trinity by old man and i am surprised for such a concept on which their whole religion stands, they have only these few lines to offer, those too which do not have a direct explanation but by use of some twisted logic and inferences. No wonder pauline's christianity stands on some very shaky grounds.

Also when we debate on the wordings of their books we must know that lots of them have been convoluted so you never know if Jesus did say that. Why Da Vinci Code became an issue for christians as it mixed up reality with imagination, It stated that Jesus nmever claimed that he was divine neither after some good time after him people believed it till a council whose name i am forgetting decided that he was god and trinity came into existence. Than he mixes up false stuff like Jesus married etc etc. Had it all been false no issue would have been raised but this council is a very sore point for christian scholars, i had read it somewhere before this appeared in the novel.

By the way Mirza Qadiani said that Jesus was buried alive and staying three days in the grave he came out (in other words resurrected. i wonder how did he stay without air etc etc in a grave), secretly went to srinagar and lived upto 120 years and died and got buried there. (this was the funniest story i could ever hear about christian history). Old man do you know that?

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@MKF

well i have seen the logics for trinity by old man and i am surprised for such a concept on which their whole religion stands, they have only these few lines to offer, those too which do not have a direct explanation but by use of some twisted logic and inferences. No wonder pauline's christianity stands on some very shaky grounds.

Also when we debate on the wordings of their books we must know that lots of them have been convoluted so you never know if Jesus did say that. Why Da Vinci Code became an issue for christians as it mixed up reality with imagination, It stated that Jesus nmever claimed that he was divine neither after some good time after him people believed it till a council whose name i am forgetting decided that he was god and trinity came into existence. Than he mixes up false stuff like Jesus married etc etc. Had it all been false no issue would have been raised but this council is a very sore point for christian scholars, i had read it somewhere before this appeared in the novel.

By the way Mirza Qadiani said that Jesus was buried alive and staying three days in the grave he came out (in other words resurrected. i wonder how did he stay without air etc etc in a grave), secretly went to srinagar and lived upto 120 years and died and got buried there. (this was the funniest story i could ever hear about christian history). Old man do you know that?

From my own search
i have realized that the concept of trinity might have started by the innocent people of the time when the event that has decribed by the
Gospel According to Saint Mark chapter 16 mentioned took place
ie when Jesus PBUH were taken down from the cross in unconsious ( supposing to be dead ) and placed in some place whose door was closed by a stone and next morning Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus (John 20:1).
Gospel writers say that she went to "anoint" him. The Hebrew word for anoint is "masaha", which means - 'to rub', 'to massage', 'to anoint'

When Mary of Magdala reached the tomb, she found that the stone had already been rolled away, and the winding sheets bundled on the ledge within the sepulcher.
Jesus was watching his lady disciple out of whom he had cast out seven devils. He comes up to her. He finds her crying. He questions her, "Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou?" (John 20:15).

then in public he announced that he was not dead but people not believed him
the same verse i had already mentioned in previous some post that he demanded something to eat to show he is not spirit and not God but people start thinking that

oh the one who came back from Dead is a holy spirit

in the book ( Who moved the Stone ? ) written by Ahmad Deedat
he had shown that Jesus was not dead , it was smiliar as some thing happen even in these days , that hard of some people stops and after few hours start working
and newspaper mentioned them in the headlines the
dead men come back to life
stoped heart start beating after few hours etc etc

---

my search says right from this event , innocent people start believing that as he came back form death so he hi spirit , and as well as God
and from here they start thinking of trinity

as these days if some event good or bad happens many people start saying him
holy baba , holy place , saeen baba etc etc

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

well Usman what does Islam says? i think though he was not dead but he was taken alive and a dummy was put on cross?

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@MKF

well Usman what does Islam says? i think though he was not dead but he was taken alive and a dummy was put on cross?

Islam does not say that a dummy was put on cross
actually religious islamic books are silent in this regard
but Ahmad Deedat and Dr Zakir Nayak had done his research on this topic
and proved that according to Bible if he was put on cross , he was not dead when he was taken down , rather he was unconcious

for this topic you can
read the
"Resurrection or Resuscitation?"
"Who moved the stone?"
and other books of Ahmad Deedat

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

OldMan, where are you?

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@MKF

Old Man have you read Chapter of the Quran, Titled Maryam (Mary). i remember an incident in Muslim lore that the chapter was recited by a companion of prophet Muhammad to the christian king of ethopia Negus and he was deeply impressed and said that Jesus is what described in these verses? Is it only in Muslim lore or you know it as well?

I have read the Surah. There are many stories such as the one narrated in the Surah in apogryphical New Testamentic documents. Most written hundreds of years after Jesus’ time. Some evidently points to religious people who wish to create a basis for the Mary adoration that the Roman Catholic Church has for Jesus’ mother.

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

If you have read than you would have read what Jesus said to people from the lap of his mother.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

1. Do you really believe in the literal sense thats figuratively that God begot a Son and Jesus is the only son of God. I do understand that he came as flesh, but what I want to know is Jesus the son of God, in the sense we in humans of our limited knowledge think. For better explanation, like you are the son of your father.

Jesus is not the offspring from the Father God as you had a Dad and someone who genetically produced you. Jesus might even have been created from God at a certain point. God Almighty decided to create the universe and mankind in it. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. I believe that Jesus was at the creation, because he said he was. If God Almighty (existing of the Father and the Holy Spirit) decided to create from Himself something that can physically manifest in the natural world same as humans, and to use this part of Himself in a way to cleans the human race from sin brought on by disobedience of Adam, who am I to question Him?

2. Do you feel God whom we call as the Just and the best Judge, sacrificed his only son for the sins of others, can this be called as Justice and can this be attributed to God. As mentioned in the bible that no son should bear the sins of his father and ditto in the Quran.

Why not? If it is the ONLY way to rid mankind of the sinful nature, why not? Would you not love your father if he gave his life to save you? Won’t you KNOW that you are special in his eyes? I see the sacrifice as an act of love from God Almighty.

3. If the word Trinity, already existed during the time of Jesus, why did not Jesus affirm this word in the Bible and stressed on this point. Why should the latter, Apostles, inspired by the Holy spirit coin this word as the Trinity is most important concept for the Christian faith.(I am sorry, if you have explained this point in the earlier threads probably i missed out)

As mentioned, the word, and others like Bible etc., did not exist at the time of Jesus. Whenever man frequently refer to a specific doctrine, man normally tends to start giving it names. The word Eschatology (End-time-teaching) is such a word and not found in the Bible. Surely you can’t say, because the word doesn’t exist in the Bible, that the Bible doesn’t refer to the end-times?

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

OldMan, one more question I had. You had stated that Muhammad SAW teachings are very different from what Jesus PBUH taught. So if someone taught something quite similar to Jesus PBUH, did not accept Trinity and prophecied, would you accept them as a prophet?

Then it would not be similar to Jesus’ teachings!

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Then it would not be similar to Jesus' teachings! :)

Meaning you would not accept a prophet from other than Christian faith.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@usmanshahid

‘Any person who has little bit sense can make out, ‘I and my father are one’ doesn’t mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose

Not correct and taken out of context. In verse 33 we can exactly see that the people who was there when Jesus spoke, CLEARLY understood to what Jesus meant. They wanted to stone Jesus because of blasphemy because Jesus with these words (which you wish to not understand and rather give a different meaning) “claimed to be God”. Jesus answered them that if human judges were called gods (Ps.82v6), then the Son of God who “is one with God” can certainly claim it with more surety.

Jesus previously explained that the power invested in him is as strong as the power the Father God has. No-one can snatch his followers from him because his power is as strong as the Father’s.

suppose If I say that my father is a doctor - and i am also a doctor. If I say, ‘I and my father are one’ - What does it mean?

If you say “I and my father is one”, I will have to ask you “One of what?” because it does not make sense that you can be in your father and that you and your father can be the same person. Has absolutely nothing to do with doing the same thing in life. You and your father is two disticnt separate persons. In Jesus case, he actually IS part of God Almighty with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

It is always good if one DOES really take scripture in context…

John No.17, Verse No.21 it says that, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said that… ‘Ye all of them are one - My father in me, and I in thee, we all are one’.

Now we jump 7 chapters further and let’s see what the context is so that you may understand:

Jesus started off earlier by praying the following in verse 11: …I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name - the name you gave to me - so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus have the Father’s name! Can ANY human claim that?

Jesus want his disciples to be of one mind and purpose as he and his Father God is one in mind and purpose.

Let’s look at your quotation of John.17v21:

Firstly you quoted it wrong (maybe not your fault but those you think know the Bible so well ). Jesus did not talk in the present tense but future, let me quote the scripture which you intentionaly/unintentionaly quoted wrong:

“My prayer is not for them alone. I also pray for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”

Here it is CLEARLY mentioned that his future believers should be united in faith and meaning and purpose as Jesus and his Father God are. How can Christians be “in God”? In chapter 16 (not 7 chapters away ) Jesus explained that the Holy Spirit will be sent to his followers. The Holy Spirit will live inside of his followers and guide them further. Jesus’ followers should then be in unity (if they form their lives as per the Holy Spirit’s guidance) similarr as how Jesus and his Father God is in unity in God Almighty.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

On the contrary very possible. Our souls as we believe were created before our flesh bodies. The souls for Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH existed before they were born on this earth. Being born means you get a human body on this earth not that your soul was created along with your human body.

Totally foreign concept to Christianity. Where are these souls kept for the time being?

Now for me being a third person observing that can very likely just pen this down as the second person came and worshipped him and then left.

Unfortunately for your reasoning, some who worshipped, wrote the Gospels! As Jews they knew exactly what they state. The word used to explain what they did, is the same word as used when worshipping God Almighty. I still think you are clutching at straws…

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

OldMan, where are you?

Ah, so glad you are missing me!

Working, you guys are keeping me from earning money!

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

Meaning you would not accept a prophet from other than Christian faith.

Meaning I will accept ANY prophet whose teachings are in line with Jesus’.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Unfortunately for your reasoning, some who worshipped, wrote the Gospels! As Jews they knew exactly what they state. The word used to explain what they did, is the same word as used when worshipping God Almighty. I still think you are clutching at straws....

Exactly, as stated in your statement I emboldened. They expressed it in the idiom of their time, today it is misunderstood as worshipping God.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Ah, so glad you are missing me! :)

Working, you guys are keeping me from earning money!

Time has become a financial commodity hasn't it. We are busy trying to buy time for ourselves instead of spending it for God. Such misers we are. He gave us a lifetime and we cannot spend from it for him.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Meaning I will accept ANY prophet whose teachings are in line with Jesus'.

Give me his teachings in a nutshell.