Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Christianity has a reason!

your reason is just for some reason
without any ground
i have proved you wrong check out the post # 16

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@usmanshahid

God and holy Ghost are made of spirit - Human beings are made of *flesh *and bones

The Holy Ghost is Spirit. Humans consist of flesh and bones and soul and spirit.

Human beings require to eat - God does not require to eat, to survive

The quote was to prove to Simon that Jesus was raised with a physical body not just spiritually as some people claim. Has nothing to do with Jesus being God, spirit or anything else.

And the concept of ‘trinity’, - the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible.

Also the word “Bible”, “rapture” etc. This argument doesn’t prove anything. It is a term coined at a later stage to easier talk of the three-in-one God.

The word trinity is not there in the Bible - But it is there in the Qur’an.

Because the Qur’an came later than the Bible and then the term was in use. The concept existed as per Genesis 1.

Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God

You sure?

Explain the following that Jesus said:

1. “Your father Abraham rejoyced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, :and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth, "Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” - John.8v56-58

2. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no-one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. - John.10v27-30

3. Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. - John.14v8-10

4. I came from the Father and entered this world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. - John.16v28

5. Jesus accepted worship form people at various times - Matt.28v9, Luk.24v52, John.9v38, Heb.1v6f.

The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible.

Wrong!!! Please explain why the following were written in the way it were written:

1. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. - Zech.12v10

2. I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Councellor to be with you for ever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you - John.14v16-17

3. *Therefor go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the *name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit… - Jesus speaking in Matt.28v19

4. In Genesis God created humans according to His image and likeness. Only three things were created: materie (body), soul, and spirit. Same as God. The Tabernacle and Temple were build similar on a plan God gave with three-in-one.

5. Hear, O Israel: The Lord out God, the Lord is one. - Moses speaking to the Israelites in Deut.6v4. Moses used not the word “absolute God” but rather “composite God”.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@usmanshahid

so this theory is nothing more then a rubbish

And your logic flawed and irrational.

[picoico]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

Because Islam reverts back to a more legalistic approach, there are major things they agree with the Jewish faith, but because Islam basically reject the Jewish scriptures, there are also major differences. For example: Islam only prevents swine from consumption, Jews have MANY more stuff they can't eat. One can state that ALL Kosher is Halaal but not all Halaal is Kosher.

I would say Christans are the one who subscribe to a wholesale abrogation of Jewish law. True, jewish dietary law is more restricted...but then as I said the two are much more similar than apart than any other two faiths on the planet.

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I believe these discussions have pointed out some of the major differences between the two faiths. I intentionaly pointed out during the discussions where the Jewish and Christian faiths diverge from Islam.

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Again, I suspect your lumping of Jewish and Christan faiths together...the two are radically different.

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True, BUT the prophet frequently do refer to the People of the Gospels and one would expect that more would be said about the teaching of Jesus as the prophet Muhammad had a great regard to Jesus. More is written about other prophet's life than Jesus' (excluding Jesus birth). Does the ahadiths add more?

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Why would one suspect that, when the only problem there was with the characterization of Christ was that he was the son of God, and so a God himself?

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"Obviously theological reasons"? I have read through the New Testament countless times, how much have you gone through? How can you then reason upon a scripture just on what other people say about the scripture? I think I DO have the luxury of discussing the Bible and the Qur'an BECAUSE I HAVE read both!

[/quote]

I've read a good bit of the NT...in any case, the point was that you no doubt consider the word of Christ and what is written in the NT to be one in the same.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@SlaveofAllaah

1. …no where does it provide wiht new knowledge and the explanation is for the Arabs the Makkans

I accept your explanation.

2. I feel you skipped the next verse this answers the above 2 verses

The point is not who taught what. When Jesus taught that he was the way to salvation lots of Jews also did not believe him. The point that you did not answer directly is that Jesus presented him as Saviour and not just another Messenger.

TOM i would like to question you give me a good reason why is a complete chapter in the name of Hazrath Mariam or Mother Mary in the Noble Quran.

I don’t know, tell me.

3. My question would be of faith Allaah knows much better who Jesus was forget about the disciples of Jesus or anyone else but Allaah knows much better who Jesus was.

It then is the word of the prophet Muhammad against the word of the martyred disciples who is correct. I did not read that the prophet died for his version though…

4. Leviticus i exactly dont know its chapter 24, Jesus is clearly told eye for eye, tooth for a tooth.

It was taught by Moses. Jesus taught: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other one also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.” - Matt.5v38-40

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5. I am confused, please rephrase it.
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I underwent the new birth as explained by Jesus in John.3v3-21

6. Christians is the only faith which have moved from the concept of Belief in one God and the belief of Christians is the concept of Triune. But Jews believed in One God

The Jews believe the Holy Spirit is part of God Almighty. They also accept that God, in some way, manifested Himself in the material world.

7. Can you please explain in more detail with evidence

The Hajj, Ka’bah, direction of prayer, pilgrimage, etc. All foreign to Jews and Christians.

8. But its otherwise for me as my understanding is different. But at times when an individual follows his/her own desires thinks is following the straight path but its not necessary true.

My point still stands.

9. Well as far as I know they are double the books which say that Jesus was not crucified and thes are Christians scholars.

Not from the same era.

But the Miracle revealed to Prophet Mohammed thats the Quran, is seen by everyone till date

Only a true example if one accepts the giving of the Qur’an as a miracle, which I don’t.

10. This verse was revealed thats Prophet was an unlettered Messenger that he an Ummi

A person picks up knowledge not just from studying but also from hearing.

I wonder, why Prophet added this in the Holy Quran if he plagiarised everyting from the Jew and Christian sources.

I did not say ALL what the prophet taught he learned from the jews and Christians. There is too many mistakes he made about the Bible, Jesus and Christians for that statement to be true.

I wanna add I believe in these things coz I believe its the word of Allaah and not 2 years ago, I would wonder even today how come such miracles have happened is it believable but the Quran is a proof of me believing in those aspects. I assume its the same for you to believe in the Bible.

Correct. Only i have the Holy Spirit with me and guiding me each and every day…

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

USResident, very well summarised. Makes it almost impossible to discuss further because you pointed out the different points of believe so good.

I deduced all this from this dicussion. Which was one of the reasons I opened these threads.

@The Old Man

You will have to elaborate a little more, USResident. Don't know what response you require.

I am refering the original sin and atonement. We believe Jesus PBUH came as a prophet to guide the people to the right path and help them get their act together. Thats what makes sense as it is what all other prophets have done. Whereas Christianity (you may even point this out from the scriptures) do not agree with this. They say Jesus PBUH came to get sacrificed and purge humanity from the original sin. His sacrifice was an atonement for everyones sins. This is also the point of corruption as far as muslims are concerned. This is what we say the scriptures have been changed to reflect this doctrine whereas it never was this way and to clarify and re-institute the correct path of monotheism is why Muhammad SAW came and the Quran was revealed.

@The Old Man

With respect to the prophet Muhammad, his teaching as per the Qur'an (and I am not even considering the ahadiths) is so far removed from what Christians are taught, as per Jesus teaching, that Christians can only accept the prophet Muhammad NOT to be a prophet of God and that the Qur'an is just a religious book written by someone creating his own religion as per new enlightenment.

Teachings about the Aqidah are far removed, I agree with that or Bible teachings are far removed from that of all prophets that came before Jesus PBUH is also a true statement. Moses PBUH and Muhammad SAW had more similarities than Jesus PBUH and Moses PBUH had, this is according to the Christian scriptures not hearsay.

@The Old Man

Islam, on the other hand, also seeing the differences, HAVE to claim that all New Testament teaching is suspect and corrupt as 90% differs with the Qur'an. (Incidentally, the Qur'an never mentions that the New Testament is wrong/corrupt. Whenever corruptness in scriptures are mentioned, it refers to the Old Testament of Judaism).

It doesn't matter how corrupt the NT may be or what has been changed in the OT. All of it is abrogated with the advent of Quran. The Jews were bound by the Torah in their time not Psalms. New revealed scriptures come to correct what may have been corrupted of scriptures before them and bring newly established laws for the people. So I would even, the Christian should not have been bound by the OT had Jesus come with something new.

@The Old Man

It leaves the two religions at loggerheads with almost NO agreements. While Christianity can relate to the Jewish faith and even use their scriptures as is, the same can't be said of the prophet Muhammad's teachings. That is why I believe that the prophet Muhammad, as per Surah 2:151, came with a complete NEW teaching and does not build on the other two Abrahamaic religions, even though the God all three worship is the same.

Differences in the laws do not matter because once a new scripture was revealed, the older one becomes defunct. However the prevailing Aqidah must be corrected if it has gone bad.

@The Old Man

It was very clear to me, as I read the Qur'an, that the prophet Muhammad NEVER had the New Testament either read or explained to him while he lived. He makes almost NO mention of any teaching or incidents from the New Testament scriptures other than Zachariah and the virgin birth of Jesus.

Precisely because his mission was not to follow a faith that had been corrupted but to re-establish what Allah SWT wanted.

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

28

So Jesus said, When the Son of man has been lifted up by you, then it will be clear to you who I am, and that I do nothing of myself, but say as the Father gave me teaching.

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1. Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? **Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that **I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the **Father, living in me, who is doing his work. - John.14v8-10

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Father in me, I think you know English grammer more then me , what does it mean
It doesn’t mean he is saying he is God , he is saying his words are from God

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1. I came from the Father and entered this world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father. - John.16v28

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same we muslim say that we have been created from the Father ( the creature ) and entered this world and after death we will go back to him
this is also showing that father and he was not same

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Jesus accepted worship form people at various times - Matt.28v9, Luk.24v52, John.9v38, Heb.1v6f.

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Mathew 23 v 9
9

And on the way, Jesus came to them, saying, Be glad. And they came and put their hands on his feet, and gave him worship.

Still here he is not saying worship me

Now look at 10
10

Then said Jesus to them, Have no fear: go and give word to my brothers to go into Galilee, and there they will see me.

This is obvious those people were afraid and they tried to do worship as it was normally done in those periods

Same as in Luke 24v52

52

And they gave him worship and went back to Jerusalem with great joy.

Still he is not saying worship me

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In Genesis God created humans according to His image and likeness. Only three things were created: materie (body), soul, and spirit. Same as God. The Tabernacle and Temple were build similar on a plan God gave with three-in-one.

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no reference

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1. Hear, O **Israel: The Lord out God, the Lord is one. - Moses speaking to the Israelites in Deut.6v4. Moses used not the word "absolute God" but rather "composite God".

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there were these verses
4

Give ear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord:

5

And the Lord your God is to be loved with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Surely no mention of the composite God

---

**

@old man

**
he never said that he was God. Infact he said ‘He was sent by God. He was a Prophet of God’.

It is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Ch.No. 14, V.No.24, ‘The words that you hear, are not mine, but it is my Father’s, who has sent me’.
Gospel of John, Ch.No. 17, V.No.3 ‘This is eternal life, so that you may know there is one true God, and Jesus Christ, who Thou has sent’.
And it is mentioned in the Gospel of Mathew, Ch.No.19, V.No.16 and 17, that one of the persons approaches Jesus (pbuh), and says ‘Good Master, what good things shall I do, that I shall attain eternal life’. Jesus (peace be upon him) replies in V.No.17 of Gospel of Mathew, Ch.No.19 – ‘And Jesus said upto him, ‘Why thou callest me good? For there is none good, except One, that is God - And if you want to enter life, keep the commandments’.
Jesus (peace be upon him) never said that if you want to go to heaven, you consider me as Almighty God. He never said that you believe that I will die for your sins
– In fact he said, ‘You keep the commandments’. It is further mentioned in the book of Acts, Ch.No. 2 V.No.22 “O men of Israel, hear this, Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved by God, amongst you, by miracles, and wonders and signs, which God did by him, in your presence, and you were witness’. It says, ‘Jesus of Nazareth a man approved by God, by miracles and wonders, which God did by him’. And when Jesus (peace be upon him) was asked, that ‘which is the first of the commandments’? he repeated verbitem what was said earlier by Moses (peace be upon him). It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, Ch. No. 12, V.No. 29, he said ‘Shama Israelo, Ada Ilahaino Ada Ihad’ It is a Hebrew quotation which means, ‘Hear Oh **Israel***, the Lord our God, is in one lord’.
– * **
– So if you read the Bible properly and with understanding , you will understand the concept of God, in Christianity. It reminds me of an incident where Maulana Rahmatullah Karanvi - he was having a discussion with a Christian missionary, who was trying to prove to Maulana Shahib that ‘Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God Almighty, and that Jesus (peace be upon him) died for the sins of human beings’. After a great deal of time, without any results, the discussion was continued. Later on, the servant of Maulana Shahib, he comes and whispers something in the Maulana’s ears. The Maulana’s face becomes sad - he starts crying. The Christian missionary asks, ‘Maulana Shahib, ‘what is the bad news?’. The Maulana Shahib said in a very sad tone, ‘My servant, he just gave me information, - he brought news, that Arch Angel Gabriel - he died’. The Christian missionary began to laugh loudly. ‘Maulana Shahib, you being such an intelligent person, how can you believe in such absurd things - Can Angels die?’ The Maulana Shahib said, ‘When God can die, why can’t Angels die?’ And the Christian missionary, without speaking a single word, he left – It is a battle of wits
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[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

I am refering the original sin and atonement. We believe Jesus PBUH came as a prophet to guide the people to the right path and help them get their act together. Thats what makes sense as it is what all other prophets have done. Whereas Christianity (you may even point this out from the scriptures) do not agree with this. They say Jesus PBUH came to get sacrificed and purge humanity from the original sin. His sacrifice was an atonement for everyones sins.

Correct

This is also the point of corruption as far as muslims are concerned. This is what we say the scriptures have been changed to reflect this doctrine whereas it never was this way and to clarify and re-institute the correct path of monotheism is why Muhammad SAW came and the Quran was revealed.

The problem is that the prophet Muhammad DID NOT have a problem with the New Testamentic scriptures! If the prophet Muhammad was OK with the Christian scriptures at his time, when and where did the corruption took place? Any ANY concrete proof other than the word of people living 600 years plus after Christianity that the New Testament was changed? No proof.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

USResident tried to get away by stating that the Injeel was not a book but an unwritten teaching/gospel. I pointed out to him that the way it is written in the Qur'an actually let a person think it is a book not a verbal teaching/gospel. Your point 1 actually confirms my position on this.

Jesus NEVER wrote a book and NEVER asked/commanded his disciples to write one. As I said then and now, the prophet Muhammad was mistaken on this point - not trying to be blashphemous or libelous.

Yo man, hold your horses. I think the point is still not clear enough. Compiled form of a book is different from what is revealed. Injeel was the book as it is in Allah SWT records, which was revealed to Jesus PBUH but the compiled form NT is not what he preached as in the revealed gospel is what is meant. Even the Quran was revelation to Muhammad SAW. Prophets do not carry around books of revelation in their hand but its all up in there head. Its for people like us that compiled book form of revelation is needed. Hope that clarifies it. There is no conflict in what I have said with what SOA has said.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@usmanshahid

28

I see you prefer to skip the first two references

3. It doesn’t mean he is saying he is God , he is saying his words are from God

It means that if his disciples look at him, they would see the Father because he is the visible image of the Father.

4. …same we muslim say that we have been created from the Father ( the creature ) and entered this world and after death we will go back to him this is also showing that father and he was not same

Wrong tense. I am sure no Muslim will say he came from the Father before he was born. Sorry, no go.

5. And on the way, Jesus came to them, saying, Be glad. And they came and put their hands on his feet, and gave him worship.

You surely are grasping at straws! Jesus accepted the worship without reprimanding them. My statement is that Jesus ACCEPTED to be worshipped. What would your reaction be if a Muslim accepts worship? Would you accept to be worshipped?

1-3

I see you conveniently skipped these three points.

4. no reference

I accept that you didn’t read the full posting by me on Genesis 1. I will not repeat it again, but will accept that you have nothing to add.

5. Surely no mention of the composite God

Because you do not know Hebrew. Ignorance do not qualify in this discussion. Let me explain to you. The word in Hebrew “echad” means “properly united , unified”. It is used in the following instances:

1. Gen.2v24 When a man and women marry and “they will become one flesh” - bosor Echod.
2. Num.13v23 The twelve spies brought back “one cluster of grapes” - Eschol-Echod.
3. Judg.20v8 “All the people rose as one man” - Ish Echod*.

The interesting fact I have noticed on this forum is that very few contributors have the honour to say they either “I do not know” or “I am wrong”. I will state if I feel I am wrong, pity others don’t…they rather revel in their ignorance and make it worse by insisting that they are correct.

It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, Ch. No. 12, V.No. 29, he said ‘Shama Israelo, Ada Ilahaino Ada Ihad’ It is a Hebrew quotation which means, ‘Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God, is in one lord’.

It is the same quote as discussed above, only the words are in Greek not Hebrew. The words are not what you wrongfully quoted (I would expect more thoroughness when someone quotes scripture) but: “Akouo, Israel, Kurios o theos hemon, Kurios heis eati”. It has the same meaning as what was discussed above. We as Christians also believe God is but a single One. We have no problem with it. The problem lie in the fact that Islam THINK, wrongly, that Christianity worships three Gods. We worship One God manifested in three distinct entities.

So if you read the Bible properly and with understanding , you will understand the concept of God, in Christianity.

I do understand the Bible, and I believe I have a better understanding of the Bible than you, since you haven’t read it fully.

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Hmm the debate getting a bit too complex and over my head, however i commend usman as he has done some research as i never bothered that much.

If christians believe one God in three manifestations, well their choice. Finding faults in bible will i think do not lead to any conclusions as there will always be a counter argument, What we Muslims should do is to tell them the right thing (what we believe is right) and they tell us the right thing (what they believe is right). somebody wanna convert, well and good. otherwise you take your way and i take my way. I never assume that i will be able to convert a single Christians by finding faults in bible as the debate getts complex and complex and i need to be a scholar on comparative religions, which i am not.

Old Man have you read Chapter of the Quran, Titled Maryam (Mary). i remember an incident in Muslim lore that the chapter was recited by a companion of prophet Muhammad to the christian king of ethopia Negus and he was deeply impressed and said that Jesus is what described in these verses? Is it only in Muslim lore or you know it as well?

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

UsmanShahid, this is supposed to be a dialogue not a debate. I respect your research and know it all comes from Ahmed Deedat (cut and paste), I read Deedat as well, however the point is not to argue using scripture because you just can't convince anyone by telling them they are wrong. Your welcome to use Ahmed Deedat material but atleast express it with an intellectual slant so we know you are really into the discussion and understand each others thoughts. If I wanted I could have pasted Deedat material myself. The point of the dialogue is to come with reasons on both sides not you are wrong and I am right. Please do not quote verbatim but add some genuine posts. We are ready know what we think about Christianity, what I am trying to get here is what do they think about themselves and for them to know how we think with respect to their arguments.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

Firstly I want to thank you do spend some time reading my post.

[QUOTE]

The point is not who taught what. When Jesus taught that he was the way to salvation lots of Jews also did not believe him. The point that you did not answer directly is that Jesus presented him as Saviour and not just another Messenger.

[/QUOTE]

The Jesus was the Messenger of God and did come as a Saviour(Not like the christians think) because who believed him as a Messenger and as a Muslim(Submit his will to God) and died as a believer, is promised paradise and Allaah knows the best.

[QUOTE]

I don't know, tell me.

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Regarding Maryam the complete chapter was to refute the Jews and also to prove the Sign of Allaah Kun Fay ya kun-Be and it is thats what the Miraculous birth of Jesus.
It had to be refuted coz a pious women such as Maryam who devoted herself to the worship of Allaah was slandered and Jews called her names but Allaah, did mention in the holy Quran that Maryam was a righteous women.

Ahadeeth.
In one of the narrations of the Prophet, Maryam is amongst the top 4 women, who achieved the Perfection of faith in Allaah.

In other narration Jesus is one amongst the two, where SAtan did not pinch when they are born as it happens to all kids and thats when they cry.

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I underwent the new birth as explained by Jesus in John.3v3-21

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I have to read it to explain.

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The Jews believe the Holy Spirit is part of God Almighty. They also accept that God, in some way, manifested Himself in the material world.
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Evidence from the book of Jews would satisfy me.

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The Hajj, Ka'bah, direction of prayer, pilgrimage, etc. All foreign to Jews and Christians.

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As said, the books are corrupted as Abraham built the Kabah and performed the piligrimage. As opposed to bible Abraham was about sacrifice Ishmael ad not Isaac. Hence Ishmael and Abraham built the Kaaba.

But Kaaba was there since the time of Adam and Adam is supposed to have prostrated. As Kaaba is the house of God and the only Mosque where it was specifically asserted by Allaah to worship.

Again, a question of belief.

Now my part of question and answer:)

1. Do you really believe in the literal sense thats figuratively that God begot a Son and Jesus is the only son of God. I do understand that he came as flesh, but what I want to know is Jesus the son of God, in the sense we in humans of our limited knowledge think. For better explanation, like you are the son of your father.

2. Do you feel God whom we call as the Just and the best Judge, sacrificed his only son for the sins of others, can this be called as Justice and can this be attributed to God. As mentioned in the bible that no son should bear the sins of his father and ditto in the Quran.

*Its like a Judge, has to pass a sentence to the one who brutally murdered 10 innocent people, but the Judge in teh court of law Sacrifices his ver son, so that the criminal is clear of all charges and all of his sins are forgotten.
*If you can explain me point 1. you can observe point 2 derives from it.

1. If the word Trinity, already existed during the time of Jesus, why did not Jesus affirm this word in the Bible and stressed on this point. Why should the latter, Apostles, inspired by the Holy spirit coin this word as the Trinity is most important concept for the Christian faith.(I am sorry, if you have explained this point in the earlier threads probably i missed out)

Like in the Quran, Allaah is called us Muslims and defined our way of life or religion for clear understanding as Islam.

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

2. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. **I give them* eternal life, and they shall never perish; no-one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no-one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.* - John.10v27-30

@The Old Man

.

sorry for late reply for this i was reading the whole context of this verse of bible and also i want to explain it clearly to you so that you should understand it clearly

u gave a quotation of the Bible, that Jesus said ‘I and my father one’. a verse from the Bible, in the Gospel of John, Ch. No.10, Verse No.30, which does say… ‘I and my father are one’.

*now i say you old man that *
*‘What is the context?’ *

For example, if I quote to someone, that the Qur’an says, ‘Does not pray’ - Most of the Muslims would be shocked - what am I saying? And if you open it up, it says… ‘Do not pray’ - but its half the verse. Surah Nisa Ch.4, Verse No.43, says ‘Do not pray with your mind befogged’ - Do not pray when you are intoxicated. So if I only quote… Do not pray - It will mean Qur’an says, ‘Don’t pray’ – half the quotation.

So for the context, ‘I and my father are one’ - you have to go to the Gospel of John,
Ch. No.10, Verse No. 23, ‘Jesus walked into the temple, in Solomon’s porch’.

Verse No. 24 says, and the Jews came around him and asked him. ‘How long does thou make us doubt? - If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly’.

Verse No.25 says, ‘I told you, but you believe me not - the works that I do in my father’s name, - they bear witness of me.

Verse No.26 says that, ‘you believe not because you are not my sheep, as I said unto you’. The Jews, they are asking Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) that ‘Why don’t you speak plainly?’. So he tells them that…‘Yes I am the Messiah - I have told you clearly, but because you are not my sheep, you don’t believe in me.

Verse No.27 continues…Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) continues saying that… ‘My sheep - they hear my voice, and I know them - and they follow me.

Verse No.28, that… ‘I give them eternal life - no man can pluck them out of my hand, and they shall not perish’.

*Verse No.29 says *‘My father who giveth to me, He is greater than all - No man can pluck them out of my father’s hand.

Then Verse No. 30 says, ‘I and my father are one’ –

‘Any person who has little bit sense can make out, ‘I and my father are one’ doesn’t mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose.

Verse No.28 says, ‘No man can pluck them out of my hand – Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) says- ‘No man can pluck them out of my hand’. Verse No.29 is saying. ‘No man can pluck them out of my father’s hand’. Verse No.30 says ‘I and my father are one’ -In purpose. Both Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) and Almighty God - they are one in purpose. suppose If I say that my father is a doctor - and i am also a doctor. If I say, ‘I and my father are one’ - What does it mean? It means one in purpose - It doesn’t mean that ‘I and my father are one’. It means my father is a medical doctor - even I am a medical doctor. But Christians say ‘No.. No – it means ‘one’ - actual Unity. So we say… ‘Okay, you say actual unity… let us read further’.

If you go ahead in the Gospel of John, Ch. No.17,

Verse No.21, it says that, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) said that… ‘Ye all of them are one - My father in me, and I in thee, we all are one’.

‘Does it mean that God Almighty, is in Jesus Christ… and Jesus Christ is in all his 12 disciples. So there will be 14 gods - Jesus Christ, God Almighty, and 12 disciples. The same ‘one’ is used there, and here.

If you go to the source, the same word is used - If you go to the Greek… the same word is used - So does it mean you have 14 gods? And among those disiples, Judas was a traitor -. Even he is God? Thomas doubted Jesus Christ (peace be upon him ) - is he God? - ‘Peter’ - Jesus Christ says … ‘is satanic?’- Is he also God? No, - all of them, God Almighty - Jesus Christ and the Apostles, are one in purpose - they are same. Again

if you go 2 verses ahead - Gospel of John, Ch. 17,

Verse 23, says that, ‘I am in thee, and you are in me’…

he tells the disciples. Does it make all them God? No! It means one in purpose.

But then you ( old man ) will say, ‘I have quoted the first part...

why don’t you quote after that... after*Verse No.30* - Gospel of John Chapter 10.

Lets go ahead - Gospel of John, Ch. No. 10,

Verse No.31. says, ‘And Jews picked up stones again, to stone at Jesus (peace be upon him)

Verse No. 32, says…
‘And Jesus (peace be upon him) asked them - for which of the good works of my father, do you stone me?’

Verse No. 33, says that…‘We don’t’ stone you for any good works, but because you blashpheme – being a man, you call yourself God – that is why we stone you’.

• Any person who wants to check up, can check up. It is there in the Bible - Gospel of John, Ch. 10,** Verse 23 onwards…** I am quoting. So Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) gives the answer - the Jews say that see he is trying to blaspheme, calling himself ‘God’. Good riddance - they want to kill him - good riddance.

next verse - Verse no. 34, of John Ch. 10, Gospel of John, Ch. 10, says that…‘Is it not mentioned in your Scriptures that ye are gods? - and if the person to whom the word’ of God came … if he says… ‘god’ - the Scripture is not broken. If you check up in the Bible, in the Psalms, Ch. No. 82, Verse No.6, does say that, ‘Ye are gods’. So Jesus Christ gave the answer, that the person to whom the ‘Word’ of God came, if you call him ‘God’, it is not blaspheme. It is meaning that… they are one in purpose.

[armughal]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@The Old Man

10. In general, when reading the Qur’an, one seems to get the idea that the prophet Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians and used some of what he learned from them in the Qur’an. Unfortunately it does seem as if he only had good access to Genesis and Exodus while some of the other stories were told him e.g. Solomon, Jonah, Job, etc. Very little was apparently available to him from the Christians except a little on Jesus’ birth but none of Jesus’ teachings. How can I follow someone not well versed in the religions he state he is correcting?

u r not the first one to put this blame on the Prophet (saw)…

Quran 25:4-6
*And those who disbelieve say: This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.
And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.
Say: “The (Qur’an) was sent down by Him who knows the mystery (that is) in the heavens and the earth: verily He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” *

u think he does not know the religion because he corrected the wrongs that u still believe to be right…

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

UsmanShahid, this is supposed to be a dialogue not a debate.

i know

I respect your research and know it all comes from Ahmed Deedat

from Ahmed Deedat and Dr Zakir Nayak

(cut and paste)

yes you can say , as i am a virtual student of Dr Zakir Nayak
these are the teaching which comes to us to talk when we have to talk on this subject and **i had also worked with his team **

, I read Deedat as well, however the point is not to argue using scripture because you just can’t convince anyone by telling them they are wrong.

you can’t convince anyone without arguing using their scripture
because then every thing comes on the will
and they use to reject every thing . so we doesn’t talk on any one’ on wish
but if some one want to look in to some religion one has to look at the scriptures. because without them there is no religion

Your welcome to use Ahmed Deedat material but atleast express it with an intellectual slant so we know you are really into the discussion and understand each others thoughts. If I wanted I could have pasted Deedat material myself. The point of the dialogue is to come with reasons on both sides not you are wrong and I am right. Please do not quote verbatim but add some genuine posts. We are ready know what we think about Christianity, what I am trying to get here is what do they think about themselves and for them to know how we think with respect to their arguments.

is there any thing i have quoted without reference:confused:
i am trying to be focus on topic and don’t want to use hangi bangi words
isn’t ???

i have been brought up in a missionary school , where they use to teach us Bible daily in the assembly ,
so this is not new thing for me
i know how they talk , how they try to catch our words and make fun of our religion
so we must have to use proper words
and these comes to us from our scholars

[MKF]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

bravo Usman!!! Student of a missionary school and now a student of Dr Zakir Nayak.

Anyway i was also a student of a missionary school for 5 years, however i never had any altercation with any christian friend of mine and i did read the bible they taught (not to us muslims). However the only complaint we had with school that their bible paper used to be very easy with one liner answers and they always used to score in 90's however we had long Islamiat paper and stillnever managed beyond 70.

I think Usman would agree with me.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@usmanshahid

i know

from Ahmed Deedat and Dr Zakir Nayak

yes you can say , as i am a virtual student of Dr Zakir Nayak
these are the teaching which comes to us to talk when we have to talk on this subject and **i had also worked with his team **

you can’t convince anyone without arguing using their scripture
because then every thing comes on the will
and they use to reject every thing . so we doesn’t talk on any one’ on wish
but if some one want to look in to some religion one has to look at the scriptures. because without them there is no religion

is there any thing i have quoted without reference:confused:
i am trying to be focus on topic and don’t want to use hangi bangi words
isn’t ???

i have been brought up in a missionary school , where they use to teach us Bible daily in the assembly ,
so this is not new thing for me
i know how they talk , how they try to catch our words and make fun of our religion
so we must have to use proper words
and these comes to us from our scholars

Ok. Just as long as there are no insults I am fine with it then.

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

OldMan, one more question I had. You had stated that Muhammad SAW teachings are very different from what Jesus PBUH taught. So if someone taught something quite similar to Jesus PBUH, did not accept Trinity and prophecied, would you accept them as a prophet?

[usmanshahid]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue (Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH) - Islam and Christianity

@MKF

bravo Usman!!! Student of a missionary school and now a student of Dr Zakir Nayak.

Anyway i was also a student of a missionary school for 5 years, however i never had any altercation with any christian friend of mine and i did read the bible they taught (not to us muslims). However the only complaint we had with school that their bible paper used to be very easy with one liner answers and they always used to score in 90's however we had long Islamiat paper and stillnever managed beyond 70.

I think Usman would agree with me.

with the paper point of view yes
and
yes they teach bible as a alternative subject for islamiat but they requarly and on daily basis teach few verses of bible in the assembly