Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
Did I?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
Yes, that is what I ask. Didn’t Allah communicate directly with Adam, Abraham, Moses, Samuel, etc.? Not everytime Allah communicated with people a Messenger was present in the Bible. Is this another major difference between Jewish/Christian religion and Islam?
This is a very questionable statement. In fact, I can’t accept that medicine and healing was at it’s height. You will have to prove it from secular sources.
Anyway, not all Prophets from the Bible did miracles. Another major difference between the two set of scriptures and religions?
Thank you very much for the list of Allah attributes/names. Will work through it.
You disagree with Slaveof Allaah then? God can change His mind or plan when a human asks for it to be changed?
You disagree then with Slaveof Allaah. Islam and the Jewish/Christian faith is similar on this issue then.
Please explain the difference and Allaah’s resonse to both.
Correct.
Not necessary for salvation but then Islam and Christianity differs on many things necessary for salvation. We will discuss it when we discuss Salvation, I suppose.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
I did use the YusufAli text.
From your answer I accept that Islam believes it impossible for Allah to be present everywhere at the same time. A major difference between Islam and the Jewish/Christian religions who believe His presence is everywhere.
As to your reference of mud, God according to the Bible took mud in His hands and moded it into Adam. God killed some animals and took the skin (from the dead animals) to make clothes for Adam and Eve.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
^ Allah is indeed present everywhere, but not in a physical manner....
the 'physical presence' of Allah is a philosophical discussion which in itself will take books to cover....
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
It wasnt said omnipotent, but it was omnipresent. I hope this clarifies your answer.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
From your answer I accept that Islam believes it impossible for Allah to be present everywhere at the same time. A major difference between Islam and the Jewish/Christian religions who believe His presence is everywhere.
As to your reference of mud, God according to the Bible took mud in His hands and moded it into Adam. God killed some animals and took the skin (from the dead animals) to make clothes for Adam and Eve.
First I confirm with armughal and I mentioned do not take it as Figurative here, you have mentioned God moulded Adam with mud. But my refutation is since God is omnipresent is God even present in mud too and other dirty elements of earth. That consists excreted stuff too.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
That brings up the question whether anything can exist without God. I understand that one does not want to equate God with filth and human perceived unclean items but, wasn’t everything made by God, even the filth and unclean? Surely nothing can make God unclean or unholy?
I’m just philosophying here…trying to understand why Islam doesn’t agree with the Jewish/Christian thought on God Almighty.
Back to Omnipresence, the difference between Jewish/Christian theology and Islam: How can God “know” what is happening all over the universe if He is not omnipresent? Does He need to rely on a host of messengers to transmit images and other data to Him? Is there then a time lag? If not Omnipresent, then no Omniscient. It’s either both or none - logically.
I am sorry but initially did not respond to your post. Can you elaborate how God can be present but not in a physical manner? Just a simple example, please.
In Christianity we understand that God’s Holy Spirit is everywhere and that is what is referred to as God’s Presence. A Christian will therefor read the quoted verse from the Qur’an and understand the Presence referred to as the Holy Spirit.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
I'm just philosophying here....trying to understand why Islam doesn't agree with the Jewish/Christian thought on God Almighty.
Back to Omnipresence, the difference between Jewish/Christian theology and Islam: How can God "know" what is happening all over the universe if He is not omnipresent? Does He need to rely on a host of messengers to transmit images and other data to Him? Is there then a time lag? If not Omnipresent, then no Omniscient. It's either both or none - logically.
I am sorry but initially did not respond to your post. Can you elaborate he God can be present but not in a physical manner. Just an simple example, please.
In Christianity we understand that God's Holy Spirit is everywhere and that is what is referred to as God's Presence. A Christian will therefor read the quoted verse from the Qur'an and understand the Presence referred to as the Holy Spirit.
Provide me with an explanation if you make a wooden table you are a creator, would you Get inside the wooden table and just coz you created. Same with car manufacturing do you think a manufacturer, though he is created everything is inside the silencer of the Car it might be possible or it might not.
Here I am using the concordist approach, and taking your side, well though the God is created each and everything on earth is it necessary God should be present figuratively, dont you see the presence of God with the the God's creation is that not evident enough.
Regarding how God knows whats happening on earth thats are his attributes I mentioned the verse of the Quran the fall of leaf, the anything which enter the dominion of earth and heave. God k nows it before hand, do you again want to become a table to know how the table works get into the thick of htings of the table, well know since you are the creator you knw what sought of elements its made up of.
Well an example of God's presence here, I repeated those verses well.Let me put this point across Allaah's knowledge encompasses everywhere this in terms of seeing, hearing, etc...
For your reference You are based in South Africe do you hear me talking in Dubai or any other person, at this present time. Do you hear the footstep of an ant, do you hear the prayer of an ant as ants can communicate like the humans, scientifically proven. Obviously no way you cant, but Allaah can hear as Allaah is Mighty wise, the Incomparably Greater. Allaah can see in the same manner. Allaah is mentioned in the Quran and I have quoted the verse Allaah even knows the intention of that individual. Forget about talking here its just the intention
Well i dont understand why do people lift there finger on top when asked Where is God? why dont they move they finger around and tell everywhere. Why dont the people answer the same question and tell themseves to be God, since God is omnipresent that means snake, dog, pig, human everyone is God as God is omnipresent.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
^ Being present doesn't mean being the item.
Just explain to me how one can know all if one is not allpresent?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
the very simple example is that of light…
the example can be understood very easily if u dont go in to the photons theory and all…
infact Allah Himself says in the Quran that He is the Light of the Heavens and the Earth…
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
Just explain to me how one can know all if one is not allpresent?
"God is everywhere." is a concept which is called as "pantheism" and it is the opposite of our believe system in Islam. Allah tells us clearly there is nothing, anywhere in the universe like Him similar to his likeness, nor is He ever in His creation. Surah 112
Allaah tells us in the Quran Allaah created the universe in six "yawm" (periods of time) and then Allaah "astawah 'ala al Arsh" (rose up, above His Throne). He is there (above His Throne) and will remain there until the End Times.
Allah has such complete Knowledge as to be able to Know all things past, present and future in all places at exactly the same time. The same can be said for His absolute Hearing and Seeing. In this way, His Knowledge, His Hearing, His Sight are everywhere simultaneously.
In this regard, the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, told us He is as close to us as our jugular vein. He also explained Allaah "with us" when we are in sincere worship to Him and in times of need. Naturally, this would not compromise His existance outside of His creation.
The Quran offers us a more detailed understanding of Where Allaah is.
7 - Al-A'raf. Verse 54
Certainly your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six yaum (days or periods of time), and then He Istawa (rose above) His Throne. He He brings the night as a cover over the day rapidly, and the sun, the moon, the stars subject to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and the Commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the universe!
10 - Yunus. Verse 3
Indeed, your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six yaum (days or periods of time), and then He Istawa (rose above), His Throne, disposing the affair of everything. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except by His Permission. This is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Won't you then remember?
11 - Hud. Verse 7.
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six yaum (days or periods of time), and then He Istawa (rose above) His Throne, in that He would test you as to which of you is the best in deeds. But if you say to them: "You certainly are going to be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic."
25 - Al-Furqan. Verse 59
Who created the heavens and the earth in six yaum (days or periods of time), and then He Istawa (rose above) His Throne. The Most Beneficent! Ask Him, as He is Al-Khabir (The All-Knower of everything).
32 - AsSajdah. Verse 4
Who created the heavens and the earth in six yaum (days or periods of time), and then He Istawa (rose above) His Throne. You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper etc.) or an intercessor. Won't you then remember (accepting admonishment)?
50 - Qaf. Verse 38
And indeed We (Allah uses the word "We" in the royal sense like the king who says, "We decree the following...", this is not in the plural) created the heavens and the earth and everything in between in six days and fatigue never touched Us (again, this is the royal "Us" not plural).
57 - Al-Hadid. Verse 4
He is the One Who created the heavens and the earth in six yaum (days or periods of time), and then He Istawa (rose above) His Throne. He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends up to it. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
We observe from these statements a very logical approach to understanding the nature of God without comparing Him to creation or putting Him in His creation.
This is the best verse in the Quran
Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (There is no god to worship except Him), the Ever Living, the Sustaniner and Protector of all that exists. He doesn't get tired and He doesn't sleep. Everything in the universe belongs to Him. Who then, could intercede between Him and his creatures without His Permission? He Knows everything about them and they have no knowledge except as He wills. His kursi (stool or chair) extends over the entire universe and He never grows weary of guarding and preserving it. He is Most Hight, the Most Great.
[This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.] Surah Baqarah 2:255
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
^ two weak points in this argument of yours...
1) the Quran states that Allah rose to His Throne after the creation of the heavens and the earth in six days, but nowhere in Quran is the mention that He shall remain their till eternity, as u have mentioned....
infact sahih hadith tells us that Allah decends every night to the lowest sky....
2) the verse u mentioned says "And He is with you wheresoever you may be" and the "by his knowledge" in the brackets r not actually the words of the Quran but of the interpreter....
the Quran says "He is with you wheresoever you may be" if u read the orignial text in arabic....
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
Thanks for the correction. Well all truth is from Allaah and all false is from me and shaitan. WEll again in the brackets by knowledge supporsts my argument earlier on, people might mistake that Allaah is with you in the sense figuratively for better explanation knowledge word is supported in the paranthesis.
Otherwise it agains supports the point of omnipresence and contradicts the Quran.
With the first point i do agree, but wiht the argument and eternity in the sense Allaah is not omnipresent. Well i do agree i dont wont to change the Quran for the argument sake. Well my point here was taking into the omnipresence concept. Well thanks again.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
whenever u use the brackets to show your point, your argument becomes weak....
because the brackets r not the words of Quran, but instead of the translator's, and everyone has as much right as the translator to put in the bracket what he wishes....
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
Slaveof Allaah and armughal, what is the concensus then? Allah is or isn't omnipresent?
What is the meaning when the Qur'an state in Surah 2-87, 253 We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear (signs) and strengthened him **with the holy spirit.**
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
Interesting information. In the verse I quoted above the “signs” can therefor have some other meanings such as miracles/wonders/etc.?
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
^ yes the sign there does mean miracle....
and holy spirit means Angel Gabriel....
in other places in the Quran too, Gabriel is mentioned as "the spirit" (al-rooh), and like all other prophets, Jesus too was helped by Gabriel....
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
[quote=“armughaland holy spirit means Angel Gabriel…
in other places in the Quran too, Gabriel is mentioned as “the spirit” (al-rooh), and like all other prophets, Jesus too was helped by Gabriel…[/QUOTE”]
In what way was Jesus helped by Gabriel?
Does the holy before “spirit” mean that Gabriel is holy? I thought only things of God can be called “holy”.
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
^ well the actual word used in arabic is "al-rooh al-quds" and i am sure u know that "al-quds" is the name given to the mosque in jerusalem as well....
here is another use of "rooh al-quds" in the Quran....
Quran 16:101-103
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Say, **the Holy Spirit* has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear. *
and the same adjective (quds) is used for the valley in which Allah spoke to Moses (as) and to refer to Jerusalem as a whole....
Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity
According to Islam, Allah SWT never communicated with any of them in his original form. According to Islam human beings cannot bare Allah SWT in his original form. The closest you will get is that Allah SWT communicated from behind a veil of light or noor. If there are detail in Christianity as such that these prophets were communicated directly by God in his original form then there should be description of what God looks like from then as well to prove it. And taking Trinity into account then how is it distinguished which of the three communicated with those prophets i.e. was it the Spirit, Son of God or God? I think there is no difference but we are understanding direct communication to mean God in his original form or is it otherwise?
I do not find it questionable. If you are comparing there medicinal capabilities from todays standards I can see your argument but I had stated they were forward according to their time.
Again not a difference. Not even all the prophets that have existed are mentioned in either scripture. Only the mightiest ones are known to us. Based on your statement, I would agree according to bible John the baptist never did any miracle yet he was a prophet. However in Islam to be a prophet does not necessarily mean you should be given miracles as a pre-condition however most of the examples we have for us the majority of them were supported with miracles.
Your welcome.
I have not read all of his posts so I do not know what you have been debating with him. However he usually makes very good points it might be that he is not able to get across his point as he means it. Another important thing is that the stories we have in our scriptures about prophets are from the past and God explained certain intricacies about them. For us, we do not know the future or unseen. So for us if something happens or comes to pass cannot be determined whether it was part of fate or did Allah SWT changed our fate because of our deeds or supplications. I hope you understand what I am trying to convey here. This is one of the reasons why we should always be thankful to Allah SWT because when your are in a good situation you really do not know whether Allah SWT made you come out better than what was originally intended or if you are in a bad situation did Allah SWT still make it less aggravating for you as it was meant to be.
Again I did not follow his entire debate. My point basically was Allah SWT must already know about about a certain emotion in order to instill in his creation. The difference is that attributes of humans are relative to Allah SWT and it may be just a very small subset also for what I can say.
I wanted to know what you intended by prayer?
Sounds good.