I have no intention of making it an interfaith butcherfest but rather state CHristian beliefs on things that are common between Islam and Christianity. So first we estblish what belief we hold about things then we can debate further.
What I want to start out with is what are the concepts of these things in Christianity:
1 - God (or Allah SWT)
2 - Prophets
3 - Angels
4 - Revealed scriptures
5 - Judgement day
6 - Heaven
7 - Hell
8 - Jesus PBUH
9 - Muhammad PBUH
I have started this thread as an offshoot from the Jesus Christ thread. My intention was to debate with “Old Man”. I request all participants to keep it clean and please refrain from hurling accusations. I just want to first establish the concepts and then have an intelligent debate.
As a muslim I do not intend to post here so I can humiliate or embarass Christians. Please no name-calling. Christians just as much as muslims believe that they are rightly guided and I would want them to discuss why they think so and at the same time we as muslims think that they are gone astray and it is our duty to bring them back to the right path, we cannot achieve that by ridiculing them or debasing them. Preach with wisdom and fairness but do not debase that which others hold sacred, Allah SWT guides who he wills. I am sure the discussion would progress if we focus on finding commonalities first.
I just want to add this verse, where our beloved Prophet salaAllaahu alayhi wa salam, when he send envoys (Eg Hercules) always mentioned this particular verse
Bismillaah il rahaman il rahim
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YUSUFALI:Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah(in English God*); that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
Jazak-al-Khaire
dear US Resident,
this is a welcome effort on your part.
all religions must have some good common things to speak of to their followers, & the elements of commonality which you have outlaid here, are all true.
the conflicts are not based in ideology, as 2 religions, but Islam is taken as apposite to the other religions as it can get.
every time we hear the comparison or contrast of Islam with West or West against Islam - these are unequal shallow arguments.
and naturally, they lead to un reasonable conclusions.
instead, it ought to be, Christianity Vs. Islam and vice a verse
now, the question is do people on either side, will accept this commonality, and base the rest of their conflicts on the non-religious, the world interaction ethics paradigm or not.
the real issues, today, are related to power and supremacy thinking of self-righteousness & that is what we need to absolve ourselves of, before we can all live in peace.
we must be able to follow the symbiotic life system, while maintaining our religious identities.
who is really religious, today any way, beyond rhetoric and those who are moderates, their lives are fine.
the ones who truly suffer due to untrustworthiness between people from different religious backgrounds, are our next generations, because for them people from all background, might be planting seeds of hatred and animosity.
your effort to invite people to an inter faith dialog is a great thing.
but, please know that it is good for re affirming our unity, common ideals in our faiths, but when it comes to the dealings among the people from these same faiths, we have a problem in which each sees the other as a threat.
that has to be countered, with both religious admonitions for maintaining peace, and ensuring that no side deceives the other mischievously in order to destroy the other side.
similarly, we as Muslims should teach fellow non Muslims about our faith so that they may know that we have a value system that calls for respect, prosperity, social justice and peace for all.
let’s hope this winning of hearts will work.
best,
dushi
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What I want to start out with is what are the concepts of these things in Christianity:
1 - God (or Allah SWT)
2 - Prophets
3 - Angels
4 - Revealed scriptures
5 - Judgement day
6 - Heaven
7 - Hell
8 - Jesus PBUH
9 - Muhammad PBUH
I have started this thread as an offshoot from the Jesus Christ thread. My intention was to debate with "Old Man". I request all participants to keep it clean and please refrain from hurling accusations. I just want to first establish the concepts and then have an intelligent debate.
As a muslim I do not intend to post here so I can humiliate or embarass Christians. Please no name-calling. Christians just as much as muslims believe that they are rightly guided and I would want them to discuss why they think so and at the same time we as muslims think that they are gone astray and it is our duty to bring them back to the right path, we cannot achieve that by ridiculing them or debasing them. Preach with wisdom and fairness but do not debase that which others hold sacred, Allah SWT guides who he wills. I am sure the discussion would progress if we focus on finding commonalities first.
YUSUFALI:Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah(in English God*); that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).
** My addition to the text*
Subhanallah! Br. This verse always touches me when I want to discuss faith issues with a non-muslim. I also request that muslim participants especially keep this verse in mind and try to show Christian participants on this thread what is common between us and then how it may have segregated, which is why we want to discuss those commonalities in order trace our way back to the fork in the road.
Prophets - various people that God used and still use to make known His mind
Angels - various beings created by God Almighty for different purposes
Revealed Scriptures - Various differences exist between denominations and sects as to which is acceptable and what hierachy. Most accept the compendium of books in the Bible (Old & New Testament) to be the basis.
Judgement Day - when Earth as we know it gets destroyed and all humankind (dead and alive) are judged on their faith and conduct in life
Heaven - a figure of speach to indicate where God Almighty abode
Hell - a place where sinners and rebellious other beings will be either destroyed or tortured (depending on the denominational belief)
Jesus - God in human flesh and appearance
Mohammad - a false prophet
Pardon for the last (point 9) but it is what Christianity believes.
They allow for any number of prophets to come. The prophets will be tested reletive to Jesus’ teaching. If they differ, they are to be classified as “false”.
Pardon for the last (point 9) but it is what Christianity believes.
Old Man i would be Happy, if you could provide some reference wrt to point 9, nothing to offend. I feel thats the core point the differences between the Muslims and Christians exist.
Yes, I hope i m not affecting the thread, You claim Jesus is god can you prove your claim.
Guys may I suggest: I think it will be appropriate if it's one on one dialogue instead all on one. Otherwise we already have two new tangents and things will really get complicated as we go further.
As USResident suggested it I think it's his right what he wants to do here.
You are most welcome to join the debate, SlaveofAllaah. If it gets into too many tangents, USResident can just open more leads to the different angles.
Jesus forewarned about false prophets: Matt.24v24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible
Paul forewarned about false prophets: 2Cor.11v4- For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached…or a different gospel from the one you accepted…
The Apostle John forewarned about false priophets: 2Joh.v9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
The message of the prophet Muhammad and Jesus differ considerably and therefor Christianity considers the prophet Muhammad to not be a true prophet. I do not wish to be disrespectful of the prophet Muhammad, and would even like to try and keep him out of the discussion, but are merely pointing out the Christian perspective.
Various Bible verses point to the fact that Jesus’ disciples considered Jesus as the equal of God e.g. their worshipping of Jesus, their writings that considers Jesus as being equal to God, their acceptance that Jesus is the prophecied Christ/Messiah, etc.
Pardon for the last (point 9) but it is what Christianity believes.
Are these concepts based on the Bible?
1 - More or less the same concept Islam has about Allah SWT (God).
2 - When it is said people that Allah SWT used, how does Christianity distinguish between a pious person and a Prophet of God i.e. if a religious person is calling people to the message of God and a Prophet is calling people to the message of God, how are the two people distinguished in Christianity or what would be the attributes, which make a person a Prophet? In Islam a prophet would be someone chosen by Allah SWT and is guided through inspiration of some kind i.e. dream or revelations. What is common would be that a person Allah SWT choses as a role model for his work so that people may follow his example and learn the commandments of Allah SWT though the Prophet. A prophet would have miraculous (something other humans of his time cannot achieve) help from Allah SWT to achieve his purpose or accomplish his task.
3 - Somewhat similar, Angels in Islam are created by Allah SWT and they do not have a free will as humans do. They carry out orders from Allah SWT (which would be for thre various purposes as you have stated). Angels are created from light (Noor). And they worship Allah SWT.
4 - Who was the Old Testament revealed to and who was the New Testament revealed to according to Christianity. In Islam we follow only one book the Quran as the word of God and then the secondary major source of religious guidance is the Hadith. Hadith is not word of God but a practical implementation of the word of God by Prophet Muhammad SAW. Hadith not being the word of God having varying degrees of authenticity and are subject to intense scrutiny from time to time.
5 - We believe the same. Its the call to judgement and the beginning of the eternal life.
6 - From what you have written should I understand there is not physical presence of Heaven? If it is a figure of speech that would make me think that everything in it is figurative speech as well but not reality.
7 - Similar in Islam. This is the place where sinners and non-believers in the message of Allah SWT will go. I do not understand what is meant by Denominational belief here.
8 - Accepted as a Christian doctrine or dogma. We will Inshallah! expand our debate about this later on. In Islam Jesus PBUH will be the saviour before Judgement day arrives and he will re-institute the teachings of Islam or the Quran.
9 - No offense taken, if this is Christian belief you are entitled to it. For muslims, Muhammad SAW is the last prophet of God and the final messenger. We will expand on this as well.
Various Bible verses point to the fact that Jesus' disciples considered Jesus as the equal of God e.g. their worshipping of Jesus, their writings that considers Jesus as being equal to God, their acceptance that Jesus is the prophecied Christ/Messiah, etc.
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What do you say about Arianism, the early Christian school of thought that did not regard Jesus as the literal son of God and interpreted the word son to mean loved one in the same sense as referred to other Prophets in scripture. If the nature of Christ as a son was a basic belief why was it codified as an article of faith only some 400 years after Jesus? And even after this codification, there are significant differences on the specifics of the trinity and what it means, so is the identity of God a denominational belief? If the disciples revered Jesus they were correct in doing so, but reverence can be as a Prophet and a saviour and someone God loved, but not necessarily as God.
Judiasm is monotheistic and Christianity considers itself a continuation of that religion. Given that previous scripture says nothing about the eternal "Word" (being Jesus?) and the hypostates of God into trinity, how can christianity be a continuation of the previous faith if it introduces new concepts about the nature of God?
Because 10 different issues are being discussed, the replies will become very long and difficult to read. You could maybe decide to split issues to make management easier - up to you.
There exist many differences between Christianity and Islam w.r.t. the 10 issues when they are scrutinized closer. For example on this point, Christianity believes in the Tri-une concept while Islam does not. I normally try and be as concise as possible. You will need to ask more pertinent questions to determine more. I will highlight some differences in this post.
A prophet prophecy i.e. a prophet tells God’s mind and purpose in specific situations or future events (God’s voice to mankind). A prophet does not need to to perform miracles. A prophet is considered a true prophet if his prophecies come true and if his prophecies do not clash with previous truths.
Angels: Have free will and some rebelled against God Almighty. Nothing said how and from what they are created. Various groups found with different duties, etc.
The Old Testament books were compiled by Israelites (Jews). The New Testament books were compiled by the 12 disciples of Jesus and others that lived in the same time span.
Correct. There exist many Christians that in error belief they will “go to heaven”. It is not stated in the Bible. It is a figure of speach indicating the eternal time with Jesus as King on a newly created Earth.
Denominations = different groups of people that accepts the major doctrines of Christianity but differ in various detail on theology.
Created Archangel that led the revolt of angels against God Almighty.
If yes, I would appreciate we start giving references to these concepts or beliefs. If you require a reference for an Islamic belief I will be happy to provide. This way we will discuss what we are really supposed to believe according to our own scriptures.
I would agree, then lets go down the list one by one. We'll discuss our belief in God since that is the starting point for both religions. I will still reply to all of this post but in your next reply we'll discuss just God and how we view God in Islam and how you view God in Christianity.
How does the Old Testament explain Trinity? And how does the New Testament explain Trinity?
So a Prophet cannot be a prophet unless he comes with some Prophecy. Am I understanding your words correctly?
This is contrary to our belief in Islam. We believe Jinn and Humans only have free will but not angels. What was their rebellion according to Christianity. And what was Gods action or punishment for their rebellion?
What would be the difference between the Old Testament and Torah (the Jewish holy scripture)?
So based on the statements should I understand that in the Bible their is no concept of Heaven yet there exists a concept of Hell.
Understood.
Is their a name for ArchAngel in Chrsitianity? Like in Islam we know the names of some the angels i.e. Gibreel, Israfeel, Malik etc