Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Yes, thats true, it shud be one on one debate.

I think one of the mods shud take up this job of editing any other posts. Thread can be made sticky.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Yep I am all for it, very informative thread.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

If Old Man is fine with debating with others its fine by me. I just don't want him to get overwhelmed. I will continue my debate with him anyway. Since we cannot restrict people from participating its better to just regulate according to the topic.

The thing me and Old Man are discussing as of now is about the concept of God in Islam and Chrsitianity. At present it is more discovering about it in Christianity. My only request is we keep it clean, informative and subjective but no-nonsense. We are not trying to convert each other but just rather trying to discover what is what and do it while asking intelligent questions not meant to degrade either party.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Does it say that the Messiah will be God. The Jews never indicated so and that was one of the reasons why they questioned Jesus PBUH. In Islam we acknowledge all these miracles as performed by Jesus PBUH by the will of Allah SWT. We do not believe these miracles make him God. There are others in the Bible who performed similar miracles bur Christianity does not grant them the Status of God. This is something I want to ask or I think I asked but maybe I was able to get my point across properly. Jesus PBUH never preached Trinity, Jesus PBUH never asked people to worship him, None of the predecessor prophets did either, then why was this doctrine formulated centuries later in Christian theology. You also indicated that Jesus PBUH was the prmised one meaning he was the fulfillment of a prophecy. Who prophesized Jesus PBUH?

What is the Holy Spirit in Christianity? According to this specific reply, if the Bible is not needed then this certainly alludes to the fact or belief of muslims that the Bible is really not the original teachings of Jesus or Gospel form of what Jesus taught as you have clearly stated. So the New Testament is definitely not the Word of God and not being the Word of God how can it be taken as the yardstick of belief then. You have quoted many verses from the Bible yet you state it is not needed so the Bible verses become really irrelevant in your belief then. Another thing I deduce from your statement is that the Holy spirit is the alternative to the Bible yet the Holy spirit is only explained in the Bible.

So a representative of God is not the same as God himself. In muslim belief all prophets are representatives of God as we believe Jesus PBUH him to be also.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Mr Old Man,

I am still kind of confused. On one hand Bible is saying that a child is not punished for their father’s sin but on the other hand you are saying that each child is born a sinner. How can a child of one day who has done nothing wrong be sinful.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Let me explain it with an analogy:

A mother is sick with full blown AIDS, get pregnant, give birth to a healthy baby which tests HIV positive.

The baby is healthy and normal same as others but carry the virus in him (infected). Some day the virus will make the baby to also have AIDS.

The germ/virus/bacteria called SIN entered th world through Adam and ALL of his offspring will therefor be invected. It is in the genes. All humans are born with a sinful nature and become sinners as they become knowledgable.

A baby does not know that breaking a valuable glass is wrong. As his knowledge increase, he become aware of the wrong and, if a good child, would try and not break glasses again. The fact that the baby did not know the act was wrong, does not make the act OK. The baby therefor unknowingly err/sin.

God created a system in which something went wrong (due to outside influence by Satan). If Satan did not influence Adam and Eve, we might still have been living in a blissful, sinless world. The system has unfortunately now been infected and God Himself needs to purify it again as the system can’t do it - everyone being tainted and with sin.

God therefor created/made a part of Him humanlike to be able to fulfill what was necessary to purify the system by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is nothing a person can do to save himself, the job is done. All a person needs is to accept Jesus as Saviour and to at least show his gratitude by living the live that God expects from him.

I differ somewhat with mainstream Christian thought because I tend to follow a theologian called Armenius w.r.t. the free will of humans. The general Christian doctrine is that God decides who will be saved and who not before the creation. Nothing a person does can influence that decision of God. I (and Arminius) hold that a person has a free will to decide for himself whether he wants to be saved or not.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

So what you are saying is that every human is capable of commiting a sin. I don’t disagree with that. But a person doesn’t become a sinner until he/she commits a sin. Lets say a child is born, then grows up and then died a natural death at an old age without commiting a sin. Would you still call that person a sinner?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

There are some discourse among Jewish theologians as to who/what exactly the Messiah would be. All understand the Messiah to be someone separate from God the Almighty. Some understand the Messiah to be anointed and the “representative” of God in human form. Others understand the Messiah to only be a “good” and holy man.

Christians feel that the Jewish theologians have humanised the Jewish faith so much that they actually lost what they have been told in their own scriptures and by their own prophets. Jesus Christ came and taught the difference.

True, although NONE was so prolific in doing miracles as Jesus. Jesus pointed to the miracles for John to understand that Jesus was fulfilling scripture prophecying the Messiah.

Jesus actually commanded his disciples to baptise converts in the Tri-une God’s names, i.e. Son, Father and Holy Spirit (Matt.28v18). Various other times the three are mentioned or present at the same time as separate entities, e.g. Jesus baptism (Matt.3v16-17).

Jesus accepted worship from people. If Jesus did not feel he was “equal” to God, he would have prevented the people from worshipping him. Jesus did not advocate worship for him at the time because “his time has not come” yet (Matt.17v9).

I have shown that the Old Testament (predecessor prophets) in various instances mention instances that can only be explained/understood by the Tri-une concept. The Old Testament writers point to a Tri-une God by implication and intimation rather than by direct statement, but they do give pointers:

  1. The Hebrew name for God (Elohim) in the plural form (Gen.1)
  2. The word used for the absolute sense of “the only one” (yacheed) is never used to express the unity of God but rather the word “one” (echad) denoting composite unity. (Deut.6v4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one)
  3. By the use of the plural “us” w.r.t. God (Gen.1)
  4. By intimation (Zech.2v10 …For I am coming…and I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.)
  5. The way God let the tabernacle and Temple be built indicating three places with distinct symbolism to the Tri-une God
  6. The way God created in Gen.1-2 indicate on a Tri-une God

The doctrine became more clear during Jesus’ teachings as seen in the New Testament.

[quote=“USResident}You also indicated that Jesus PBUH was the prmised one meaning he was the fulfillment of a prophecy. Who prophesized Jesus PBUH?[/quote”]

Some examples (there are too many):

  1. Gen.12v3 …and all the peoples on earth will be blessed by you fulfilled by Jesus according to the Apostle Peter in Acts.3v25.
  2. The Passover point to Jesus and his death Ex.12
  3. The whole concept of the Day of Atonement and it’s rituals point to Jesus Lev.16
  4. The story of the sacrifice of Isaac (Ishmael according to Islam) by Abraham in Gen.22 point to Jesus and his atoning death
  5. Job stated “*I know that my Redeemer lives (present tense), and that in the end *(future tense)he will stand upon the earth” - Job 19v25
  6. Ps.16v10 points to Jesus’ resurection …because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
  7. Ps.22v1 was uttered by Jesus when he died on the cross - Matt.27v46 …My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
  8. Isa.53
  9. Jesus indicated to John the Baptist that he fulfilled Isa.61v1-3
  10. Isa.7v14 Therefor the Lord himself will give you a sign: the virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel as per Matt.1v23

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God as mentioned in Gen.1v2 …and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Christians should be led by the Holy Spirit in their daily lives. The Bible consist of a number of books written by various writers that are recognised as having had the Holy Spirit guide them while writing. Surely one can use these writings as guides to more fully understand God Almighty. The Bible can also be used to learn to hear the Voice of God (Holy Spirit) more clearly by checking what you have heard against what we know from God through the inspired writings in the Bible.

Using the Bible as a rulebook is as wrong as willy-nilly following every voice communicating with one. Which one to follow when they clash? You have to follow the Bible. This is where so many theologians get it wrong by following what they perceive to be the Holy Spirit’ voice (when it is not) and then to twist the Bible to fit what they believe is correct. If one knows the voice of the Holy Spirit well, He helps in understanding the Bible. This is why theologians, who has no personal relationship with God, but taking Jesus’ teachings as philosophy, just don’t understand God and what His plan for mankind is.

In summary thus far

I have shown that there are many reasons why Christians regard God as a Tri-une entity as per the Bible. Whether one accepts all the reasons doesn’t matter. The concept of a Tri-une God did not just fall from the sky, and wasn’t introduced to confuse or mislead people.

Whether the Tri-une concept is the correct one no-one can say. It is the best way in order to understand the way God (and His work) is protrayed in the Bible presently. It is the only way to understand Jesus’ role as Saviour if one accepts the Bible as inspired scripture.

If a person and people taught by him come and say he is the equal of God, that if you have seen him you have seen God, all power of God has been transferred to him, state that he was with God during the creation of the universe, he is greater than any prophet that ever was and ever will be, call himself by various names normally only reserved for God, do miracles in the Name of God Almighty, give all credit to God Almighty, God Himself state that he is in perfect accordance to what this person is doing, his disciples die horrible deaths for these beliefs while not recanting, and this person fulfils all prophecies in Holy Scripture at that point, surely one needs to ask yourself whether the person might not either be God or either be a manifestation of God in human form…

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

No, the person is not a sinner. Unfortunately only Jesus lived like that!

All people sin even if unknowingly. If a person state that he does not sin, he actually state that he is sinless or absolutely pure/perfect. By making such a statement the person sin because he equates himself to God since only God can be pure/perfect! It is therefor impossible, illogical, and contradicting to state that a person is without sin.

One can obviously theorise about it: If anyone is sinless, he would not need Jesus as Saviour, and Christianity is not for him.

The Bible is clear though that, except for Jesus, all people are sinners.

Xeno's Challenge !
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

USResident, I believe that the discussion has gone as far as possible w.r.t. God as seen by Christianity. Do you wish to move on to one of the other topics?

Some points one can also discuss later are:

  1. Salvation
  2. Religious days
  3. Food & beverages
  4. Sacrimental practices/rituals
  5. Life as believer
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Please quote from Bible where it says that Zacharia or his wife commited sin or Abel commited any sin or Daniel commited any sin to name a few.

As far as Jesus is concerned, please read the verses from Bible John 7:8-10, where Jesus asked his brothers to go to the feast themselves saying that he is not going up to the feast. But after his brothers are gone, he went in private.

Should we consider the above statement by Jesus (AS) a lie?

I want to go to bed with . . .
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Since not every minute of every moment of the life of Zacharia, Abel or Daniel are mentioned in the Bible, you ask an impossible question. It’s the same as if you ask me to use the Bible to prove you committed any sin.

The Bible state that ALL mankind is sinners and guilty of committing sin, as quoted, and does indirectly prove from the Bible that Zachria, Abel, Daniel and you have committed sin.

Moses, David, and many more people are mentioned as that God loved them because they were pious people while some horrendous sins committed by them are mentioned in the Bible.

Let’s look at your quote: “You go to the Feast, I am not yet going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come.”

When the time for Jesus came, he then went to the Feast. Can you prove in any way that Jesus went before “the right time”? Where is the sin?

Glamour girls parade topxxx to raise funds for UK troops
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

For Zacharia and his wife, we read in Bible:

Luke 1:6 And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame.

So a person who is fulfilling all the commandments of Allah without a blame, how can we call that person a sinner.

Tips on how to ..
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

If Christians believe this then it should be proven from the Torah that the Messiah will be God. A reference might help here if given from the Torah.

Since Jesus PBUH was jewish, any prophecy about him must be in Torah. Let me quote a few prophecies:

**Isaiah 21:7: “And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels.” **

**Deuteronomy 18:18: “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” **

Who are these prophecies about?

According to the Bible he warned against the fact that people would worship him and do so in vain:

**Matthew 15:9: “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” **

I would say the Holy Ghost or Spirit is Angel Gabriel according to the Bible and not the spirit of God:

**Matthew 1:18: “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.” **

**Luke 1:26& 27: “And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.” **

Two accounts of the same thing, one by Matthew and one by Luke. If you compare then the Holy Ghost is Angel Gabriel.

I find it very discouraging that the Bible cannot clearly explain the foundation of Christianity and Bible scholars must twist their explanations. In Islam the concept of God is so straight forward you cannot possibly get confused about it and high ranking theologians are not needed to explain it. A muslim is never confused about God in Islam.

Would you follow a faith where there is so much uncertainty about the very foundation it stands upon?

One of the reasons Prophet Muhammad SAW came and Quran was revealed was to clarify the mistakes that had crept into the teachings of Jesus why else would Islam talk about Jesus PBUH. Its a final continuation of the teachings of Prophets and in the view of muslims corrects the things Christians till date cannot explain about their faith. After 2000 years Christianity still cannot give a clear explanation about Trinity.

Tell me what do you think of these two verses:

**Matthew 28:19: “… baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” **

**John 17:21: “That they (the disciples) all art in one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be art in one…” **

The first verses is your concept of Trinity but what is the second then?

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Please pick what you would like to discuss next from the list items 2 - 15.

Gaia hits 5K landmark:k:
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

I want to ask Old Man, as all 3 are one the trinity and a part of God.

Can I change the order as
‘In the name of Holy Spirit, Son and Father’
‘In the name of Son, Father and Holy Spirit’

This is wrt to USR, i wanted to add the above lines.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Because the same Bible state that no-one is sinless only Jesus. Jesus said about John the Baptist: …Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist until now… including Abraham, Moses, etc. But, we know that at that exact moment John sat in prison and had doubts whether Jesus was the Messaih as preached by John. Doubt is the basis for various sin.

Yes, “a person who fulfills all the commandments of Allah without a blame” still has a sinful nature even while not doing any sin.

You have to diferentiate between “doing sin” and “being of a sunful nature”. As I mentioned earlier to you: The baby with HIV positive blood is inherent sick and dieing while outwardly being healthy and normal.

The Random Thread
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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Yes you can. I actually did it in one of my earlier posts. There is no rule about it. In 1Cor.12v5-6 Paul actually list attributes of the three in the order: Holy Spirit, Son, and then Father. If all three are equal, then it does not really matter which is mentioned first. Remember, in the Almighty God they are equal and inseparable.

The normal way is Father, Son and Holy Spirit as that is they way they are indicated to have authority/hierarchy in their separate entities: The Father “sends” the Son who “sends” the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings glory to the Son (Joh.16v14) while the Son brings glory to the Father, etc. In the final end the loop is completed where it is mentioned that the Holy Spirit is the one that even delves the depths of God Himself, something the father apparently can’t do.

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

now this is a point on which Islam wud greatly differ…
firstly bacause we muslims dont believe anythign cud go wrong in a system created by God, without His Will…
nothing went wrong in the creation of man…
if u read Quran, the angels already question Allah for creating something that wud casue mischief and bloodshed on earth…
so there was never a sinless world intended by Allah…
man was destined for earth and the troubles…

and if there was no sin, heaven and hell wud be meaningless, and so wud be the creation of man…

which brings forward a good question, according to christianity, what is the purpose of the creation of mankind???

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Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

As mentioned, the Old Testament does not clearly say the Messiah is/will be God. Even the Jewish theologians differ on this point.

Isa.21v7 is not a prophecy of the coming of Jesus.

Deut.18v18 is a promise of the coming of Jesus/Messiah. Peter stated that this prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus - Act.3v22.

You use the quote out of context. Jesus said in verse 7 "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you… and only then the above followed. You Jesus used this quote from Isa.29v13 to indicate that the Pharisees are like the people in Isaiah’s day who worshipped God Almighty with their words but not with their heart. That is exactly the worship God the Father and Jesus do not want.

Matthew 1:18 & Luk.1v26-27: According to this verse and Luk.1v35 Mary became pregnant because the Holy Spirit would make her pregnant (and being Spirit it did not mean in the normal man-womanly fashoin of having sex). It is not stated that the angel Gabriel made Mary pregnant (surely you do not wish to imply Gabriel had sex with Mary!?). Gabriel was only the messager of the impending **
I find it very discouraging that the Bible cannot clearly explain the foundation of Christianity and Bible scholars must twist their explanations.
[/quote]

The Bible is actually very clear but human minds err. There are Christian theologians today that negate the virgin birth, question whether Satan exist, state Adam, Eve and Noah never existed, etc. AND remain in seminaries where they teach new preachers/professors/theologians.

I always maintain that if a doctrine is dificult to explain (you can’t explain it to a little child) then the doctrine is faulty.

:slight_smile: There exists no uncertainty for me, as proven in my responses to you and others. The only time for uncertainty to creep in is when one starts to philosophise about God Almighty and aspects not mentioned in any scripture Jewish, Christian, or Islam (how old is God?). I tend to keep an open mind and will not be surprised that there are aspects of God Almighty neither Christianity nor Islam has mentioned or discussed.

What the prophet Muhammad teached is so much different from what Jesus and ALL the disciples, who studied at the foot of Jesus for three years, and all the early Christians teach in their writings that it can’t be seen as a continuance but rather a different theology. The message of the Prophet Muhammad actually differ so much from even the Jewish Old Testament that Islam needs to insist that all these scriptures have been corrupted - without having any concrete proof such as a document which state doctrinal diferences.

I have explained why the Christian Church hold to the concept of a Tri-une God very clearly and irrefutable from the Bible, and I am not a very learned scholar. :slight_smile:

The second (John 17v21) in context of the whole chapter clearly state in what context the relationship between Christians should be. Jesus state that he would like the followers to be as united in mind and love for each other as him and the Father is. Nothing w.r.t. the physical unity of Jesus and God the Father.**