Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

[USResident]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

Dear Guppies

I would request that we do not overwhelm Old Man with too many questions. He can't possibly debate with everyone. If we could ask questions that are inline with what him and I are discussing then that would be helpful. Thank you.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

The Old Man: I agree, this can be seen in various religions. But being a non-Christian living in America that is heavily dominated by fundamentalist Christians, and since fundamentalist Christianity is coming out of the closet after some hiatus of "Its cool to be an atheist" and "keep religion out of things", this becomes of concern to me. I don't know about you, but I'm seeing more and more of these "good christians" wanting to run everyone's lives.

[P_GL]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

you know reading this thread is very enlightning

i cant beleive there are so many similarities between our faiths:)

[P_GL]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

oh and to say well done for both party's who are discussing this topic with out slandering the others beleifs:)

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@ravage

Frequent contact, yes. I did not mean by absolute disconnect that God was silent or inactive. The Semetic model would be an absolute distinction between God and His creation and messengers/Prophets, in terms of identity.

Would you agree that Arius’s version was closer to the Semetic model in terms of the relationship of God and His Creation, and that the hypostates understanding of God is comparatively closer to the Greek philosophical concept of Emanation?

Arius’ concept of the “Trinity” made the salvation as taught by Jesus impossible whether I agree or not on your above statement. His concept also could not explain various issues as found in the Old Testament and pointed out in a post above.

The Greek philosophers taught that God cannot have any direct contact with this world. The Jews believed in a God that has frequent contact with them - even to the point of personal relationship and contact. Arius clearly are closer to the Greeks than the Jews. My opinion…

@ravage

Im not sure what you mean by this, perhaps you can explain?

Two or more ideas that impact on each other making one of the ideas impossible. It is either the one or the other, can’t be both. If Arius’ “Trinity” concept is the correct one, then salvation as taught by Jesus can’t be.

@ravage

How did Jesus teach that his death was crucial, was it before his death or after it (when he was seen by apostles?). If before, did he describe his death, and did he give the rationale for why his death saved mankind?

Jesus described his death beforehand. He taught it was absolutely necessary for salvation. I did quote some scripture to USResident.

@ravage

So you mean to say that Christian conduct is meaningless without believing in Jesus as the son of God? Likewise, would someone who commits acts of evil while believing in Jesus as the son of God go to Hell or is he forever saved?

Yes on your first question. Some denomination believe “once saved, always saved”. They are wrong. Once saved, one can again fall away from grace and go to Hell.

@ravage

I dont understand. Why is sin a racial concept?

By race I meant the whole of the human race - past and present and future. Maybe using the words “all of mankind” will help? No need for anyone else to be sacrificed, Jesus did it for all. In order to qualify, one only needs to accept Jesus as Saviour.

@ravage

Even if sin were to be viewed as something passed over generations, can you explain why Jesus being captured, betrayed, and crucified saved mankind? If anything, isnt that a further damning of humanity? In the whole act of crucifixion the only person playing a selfless part is not human-proper, he is God. So basically what did humanity (not God) do to redeem itself?

If Jesus was just a normal prophet as Islam state, yes, then it will seem strange. In Adam and Eve ALL of mankind (having the same genes and blood) sinned. We all inherited this sinful state from our ancestors. Mankind can’t rectify himself and it was necessary for God to step in and “save” His creation by fulfilling Himself the sacrifice/duty. Humanity can only be saved through grace - all has been done, just take it. Unfortunately wo/men feel they need to “earn” salvation and therefor focus on “works” not “faith”.

@ravege

but If God placed His Head before you, I would understand you worshipping it as an extension of the Almighty, as long as you were infact worshipping the Almighty and not making a differentiation of identity between them.

Agree

@ravage

That was my point. They differ on the specifics of the entities, their nature, their creation, their function, their relationships. Which then begs the question, how is God more easily conceptualized through the Tri-Une concept if that concept leads to such differences of interpretation, even within those who hold to it?

The scriptural references are easier to understand. Differences of the individual entities is the same as discussion on God where people might differ on certain issues pertaining to their doctrinal views. An example is the major difference between Protestantism and Penticalism w.r.t. the continuing Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The debate centers on whether the Gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12 were only valid for a period in the past and whether they are still in operation today. Both of these denomination agree though fully on who and what the Holy Spirit is.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@PyariCgudia

I don’t know about you, but I’m seeing more and more of these “good christians” wanting to run everyone’s lives.

I know, I have a family full of them

The bottom line is how do you deal with them. By your actions you can change them. A soft spoken old Christian lady giving herself to her community (maybe Islam), will find more goodwill and acceptance than the Rev. Pat mouthing off against Islam.

Be yourself and show them what your faith is all about by your conduct.

[fatehahmad]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

The Old Man wrote:

[QUOTE]
We all inherited this sinful state from our ancestors.
[/QUOTE]

But we read in Bible:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deut: 24: 16

From jeremiah 34: 29-30

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

From Ezekiel 18: 20
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Bible is very clear on this and I don't know why Christians still believe that everybody is sinful because of their ancestors.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@Iconoclast

If Jesus and Father are one, then why does God being one place so much emphasis on jesus being the savior and salvation only thru jesus?

If say i beleive in salvation only thru God, then why God isn’t happy, afterall jesus is part of him, they are the same.

Why the jews, whom God took as his chosen were never given the knowledge of Him being triune?

God choose to let salvation work though faith in Jesus. Surely it’s His choice?

The mere fact how quick they accepted the teaching of Jesus and how quick the Christian congregation grew in it’s initial stages point to the fact that the normal Jew was open for the new concepts. Those that were negative were mostly the learned religiouly Jews. They preferred to rather stick to salvation through observing the Law rather than accepting Grace.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@picoico

How on earth did Moses or King David (pbu them) pass the test?

Certainly, the belief isn’t that all prophet’s would echo Jesus’ News verbatim…

Sorry, I referred to prophets coming after Jesus. Obviously prophets before Jesus was tested as to whether their prophecies come true and also no prophecy must clash with prophecies from known Prophets.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@USResident

How will you recognize God in human form when people could not even accept prophets who were from among them. There must be something in the human being to enforce the idea that he is God incarnate. What was there in Jesus PBUH that proves he is God in human form? Surely, if we can witness God out of the unseen then there is no test of faith. There is no need for faith.

John the Baptist, while in prison, also started to doubt about Jesus being the Messiah/Christ. He send two of his disciples to query Jesus. Jesus asked them to tell John that “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor”. Jesus basically quoted Isa.61 to show that he was the promised one. Jesus indicated that signs and wonders will follow God in human form.

In future, by means of the Holy Spirit as explained by Jesus:

I will send him (the Councellor or Holy Spirit) to you. When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement: in regards to sin, because men do not believe in me…the Spirit of truth…will guide you into all truth - Joh.16v5-15

In fact, Christianity do not need the Bible. In the early stages of growth of the Christian church, there were no New Testament. The Church were close to the working of the Holy Spirit. Once Christians started intellectualising God and Jesus’ teachings, and not to trust in the Holy Spirit that they started to go wrong.

@USResident

If God appeared in so many human forms then why diefy Jesus PBUH only. Does this not indicate that the form in which God appeared according to the bible is irrelevant because it happened in many different places in different times in different forms to different people. So the only true God, which is one no matter in what shape or form he appeared should be worshipped rather than selecting one shape or form. And further more were all the other forms of God also triune, there is nothing in the bible to suggest that. So did the nature of God change over time.

“God” did not appear in many human forms. An entity representing God in human form appeared in all cases and Christians accept that it was Jesus since no other explanation exist.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@fatehahmad

Bible is very clear on this and I don’t know why Christians still believe that everybody is sinful because of their ancestors.

I expressed myself incorrectly. You are partly correct in that a sin committed by an ancestor will not be held against descendants. On the other hand, the Bible also teach that sins commited by the leader or father of a group of people will impact on the lives of descendants, e.g. Achan’s sin (Josh.7), Saul’s sin (2Sam.21), as well as God’s words in Ex.20v5 I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Adam was the moral, spiritual, legal head and representative of the whole human race. All humans stem from him. When he sinned, he acted for the entire race and as their source he was responsible for sin being passed upon all men. Sin, in Judaism, was reckoned as passing from fathers to their children and not from the mothers. In the Bible, the woman is merely the means of reproduction of man without sinful responsibility. This is why Jesus can be claimed to be sinless being born of a virgin.

That’s why Paul could write Therefor, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - Rom.5v12. Each person was born after Adam with sin as part of his makeup. There has and never will live a person that is not a sinner. The apostle John wrote If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1Joh.1v8.

Paul continues to explained further in Rom.5v18 “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men”.

Some other scripture stating that wo/man is sinners even from birth are Ps.51v5, Jer.17v9, Ps.14v1-3, Ps.53v2-4, Ecc.7v20, Job.15v15-16, etc.

The original sin idea is very well accepted by Judaism and Christianity as the Bible states it clearly that there are no sinless human being.

Every human being since Adam is still suffering from the result of his sin. The earth is still cursed, women still have pain in childberth, etc.

[fatehahmad]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

The Old Man,

It looks to me contradiction in what bible says about sin. Do you think that the verses of Bible saying that the son would not be punished for the sins of his father incorrect or its the other way around?

[fatehahmad]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

I would be thankful if you can furnish a quote from bible about your statement:

[QUOTE]
Sin, in Judaism, was reckoned as passing from fathers to their children and not from the mothers.
[/QUOTE]

[fatehahmad]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

To Old Man,

Being affected by the sins of your father is one thing and being sinful because of you father is a totaly different thing.

Let me give an example, Lets say God punished a nation because of their deeds by destroying them through an earthquake, obviously their future generations would be impacted because all the infrastructure would have been destroyed and such.

But to say that their children are sinful because their fathers were sinful is totaly unjustified and Bible does talk about (which I quote previously)

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@fatehahmad

The Old Man,

It looks to me contradiction in what bible says about sin. Do you think that the verses of Bible saying that the son would not be punished for the sins of his father incorrect or its the other way around?

It means everyone is reponsible for his own salvation as soon as s/he have the intellect. Until the person can be responsible for his own actions, s/he will be under the parental umbrella of sanctification. Once the person has an understanding of sin (God will be the only judge as to when this occur), that person needs to take charge of his/her live by repenting and dedicating his/her live to God. In doing so, the person will divert the wrath of God.

Some persons will never be able to move out from under the cover of their parents, e.g. an idiot.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

I thought you guys believed everyone is born with sin.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@fatehahmad

I would be thankful if you can furnish a quote from bible about your statement:

In all references to cases where God will punish the descendants for the ancestrals sins, God always refer to the man not the woman. Ex.20v5, 34v7, Lev.26v39-40, Num.14v18, Dt.5v9, etc.

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

@PyariCgudia

I thought you guys believed everyone is born with sin.

Correct. A “re-born” Christian remains a sinner even when he is saved by Jesus’ saving grace. Being sanctified by the parent means that the child is still sinful but it will not count against him due to his parents faith.

Some Christian denominations hold that all children will be saved whether their parents are saved or not.

[SlaveofAllaah]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

*Well i emphasize again let it be ONE on ONE debate, if someones got any points please PM it to USR. *

This is a good debate, whats the use of hampering the thread and hundreds of them questioning Old Man, well he is here for a debate and USR as well. Use the Services of the Gupshup to the fullest, thats Private Message.

My Humble Request

[Code_Red]

Re: Interfaith Dialogue - Islam and Christianity

good suggestion :k:

Should i pm you USR ?