The concept only became a controversy in the 4’th century (300 years after Jesus). Arius put great emphasis on the humanity of Christ. This emphasis was necessary in order to refute the influence of people that denied that Christ had come in the flesh. In his reaction, Arius went too far under Greek philosphophical influence. God, according to Arius, was too far removed from men to have any direct relation with them. Jesus was therefor a created being, the first and highest order of all creation, being neither God nor man but mediator between the two. In denying Christ’s divinity, Arius denied Christ’s saving power.
The controversy reigned for a very long time and caused much problems for ordinary Christians with no recourse to Bibles. The then Emperor Constantinople called on the church to formulate a standard doctrine. A council was called with more than 300 bishops at Nicaea. Arius was condemned as a heretic because he refused to sign the Nicene Creed formulated. There exist a number of Christian-like sects still adhearing to Arius’ theology but they are considered as being heretic. Examples are the Watchtower (Jehova’s Witnesses), some Apostolic Movements, Mormonism, etc.
I have my own viewpoint on Jesus being part of God Almighty but still submissive to God the Father. If “created” means that Jesus was “created” as part of God Almighty in order for simple human minds to understand, and in order to perform a function only a “humanlike” person can do, then I have no difficulty in accepting Jesus to have been created. Let me explain:
Assume God takes His hand, give It life and send It to Earth as communicator with humankind. Whatever that Hand write, must be accepted as being straight from God. People might even point to the Hand and call it God. The Hand is physically God among humankind. We actually have examples of such cases in the book of Daniel where a hand appeared and wrote a prophecy against King Belshazzar as well as the 10 Commandments to Moses.
Dan.5v5 Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall…
Ex.31v18 When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him (Moses) the two tablets of the Testimony, the tables of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
The Finger or Hand of God IS God as they are the physical manifestation of God Almighty. BUT, they still need to be submissive to God Almighty and never ever can go against God Almighty. With Jesus it is the same…
Jesus’ name were not mentioned in the Old Testament (Jewish part of Bible), yes. There are though many scriptures from the Old Testament referring to God being more complicated than the simple God-is-One concept. The Tri-une concept is but a method to make God more understandable to the feeble human mind.
Well it wasnt a case of a person who interpreted it in a Greek context versus those who didnt. The council of Nicene represented the powers that be and were operating with a Greek context too. Could we not say that the Nicene creed version was closer to the Greek philosophy of Emanation and polytheism whereas the Arian view was closer to the Semetic model of absolute distinction between God and his creation and pure monotheism?
When you say Arius denied the “saving power” of Christ, is that view based in the revelations revealed to Jesus? If so, did he recieve revalation after he was crucified? (given that the view is he saved humanity by being crucified).
Christianity is a religion of fairness correct? Adherents are bound to act in the ways Christianity prescribes and then can hope of achieving Heaven. If so, what difference to that practical imperative does Jesus’s crucifixion make? Supposing one did not believe in that and adhered to Christian rules of conduct, would he not be saved?
If he wasnt why not. If he still is, what difference does the crucifixion make to the religion, practically?
Did the hand, or the finger ever worship God? Secondly if the Finger is no longer present in man after having written down what it was writing, is it still a seperate identity from God? Would Christians be correct to worship the God, the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ and the Hand/Finger?
Can you give examples? If the Tri-une concept is a method to make God more understandable, is it not counter intuitive that every church has a different view of what exactly it means to be Tri-une? History is replete with Christian theologians over the ages defining and redifning, explaining over and over what it means to be Three and one, and declaring each other heretics over different definitions. You yourself talk of a “Created” christ, in some versions the Word of God is eternal, and Christ is that word.
To my mind it is much simpler for the feeble human mind to understand God in the way it was always understood by Abrahimic religions before Christianity.
With respect to references, I will endeavor to give but you have to realize that sometimes there are just too many. I will try and find the most pertinent and clear references as far as I can.
Prophecy is but one part of what a prophet does. As I stated "a prophet tells God's mind and purpose in specific situations or future events". For example, Abraham can be considered a prophet but no prophecy of his is found in the Bible (as far as I can remember).
Satan, as ringleader, tried to put himself up as God's equal through pride. He, as well as his followers, were cast/chased away from God and now mainly dwells on Earth. (Ezek.28) The angels that followed him are called evil spirits/demons in order to differentiate between them and the other angels, and assist Satan in his service on Earth against both God and man. (Matt.12v24-26) Some of the demons are presently bound awaiting judgement (Jud.v6) the other followers together with Satan will be thrown in Hell at End-of-Time. (Rev.20v10)
The Torah per se only refer to the 5 books attributed to Moses. The Old Testament is the Torah Shebiksav (Written Torah) which consist of the Torah (books of Moses), the Nevi'im (the Historical Writings, the Major and Minor Prophets) and the Kesuvim (the Wisdom books)
Some books were included in the Greek Jewish Septuagint but not considered as equal to the above mentioned. They are not included in the Hebrew Masoretic text. The Roman Catholic Church official Bible follow the Septuagint text and therefor include them as the Apocrypha while all Protestant churches follow the more exact Masoretic text and normally exclude them from their Bibles.
[quote=USResident]
So based on the statements should I understand that in the Bible their is no concept of Heaven yet there exists a concept of Hell.
No. Christianity teach that Heaven exist and is the abode of God Almighty. The standard doctrine is that Hell is a place of end-less torture (Jud.v7 & Rev.20v19). For some denominations the concept of a loving God torturing people for ever is too much and they therefor hold that everyone put into Hell gets destroyed completely.
The names mentioned in the Bible are Michael (Jude 9), Gabriel (Dan.8v16), Lucifer (Satan) (Isa.14v12 KJVersion), and Abaddon (Rev.9v11).
Prophecy is but one part of what a prophet does. As I stated "a prophet tells God's mind and purpose in specific situations or future events". For example, Abraham can be considered a prophet but no prophecy of his is found in the Bible (as far as I can remember).
Satan, as ringleader, tried to put himself up as God's equal through pride. He, as well as his followers, were cast/chased away from God and now mainly dwells on Earth. (Ezek.28) The angels that followed him are called evil spirits/demons in order to differentiate between them and the other angels, and assist Satan in his service on Earth against both God and man. (Matt.12v24-26) Some of the demons are presently bound awaiting judgement (Jud.v6) the other followers together with Satan will be thrown in Hell at End-of-Time. (Rev.20v10)
[quote=USResident]
What would be the difference between the Old Testament and Torah (the Jewish holy scripture)?
The Torah per se only refer to the 5 books attributed to Moses. The Old Testament is the Torah Shebiksav (Written Torah) which consist of the Torah (books of Moses), the Nevi'im (the Historical Writings, the Major and Minor Prophets) and the Kesuvim (the Wisdom books)
Some books were included in the Greek Jewish Septuagint but not considered as equal to the above mentioned. They are not included in the Hebrew Masoretic text. The Roman Catholic Church official Bible follow the Septuagint text and therefor include them as the Apocrypha while all Protestant churches follow the more exact Masoretic text and normally exclude them from their Bibles.
No. Christianity teach that Heaven exist and is the abode of God Almighty. The standard doctrine is that Hell is a place of end-less torture (Jud.v7 & Rev.20v19). For some denominations the concept of a loving God torturing people for ever is too much and they therefor hold that everyone put into Hell gets destroyed completely.
The names mentioned in the Bible are Michael (Jude 9), Gabriel (Dan.8v16), Lucifer (Satan) (Isa.14v12 KJVersion), and Abaddon (Rev.9v11).
Ok. So now lets start discussing God in Christianity and Islam. One thing we agree to in abstract sense is that God is one and unique. All powerful and absolute.
Naturally discussion about God in Christianity means discussing Trinity. What is the best explanation of Trinity you can find in the Bible? And who is this explanation attrributed to. Among all the Abrahamic religions none of them ever talked about Trinity, they have always refered to monotheism. When I compare against Islamic monotheism the first thing that I ask is why should there be a triune God, what benefit does it bring about for humans. How does a Triune God compare to a Mono God, what is the difference and what does it achieve? Is there anything that Monotheism cannot achieve that Trinitarinism can?
No. The Semetic model is a God who has frequent contact with His creation.
Arius did not deny the saving power of Christ. His doctrine about Jesus’ humanity brought him in difficulty with the issue. There exist many denominations today that hold to the concepts that are 180 degrees out of phase, i.e. “once saved, always saved” - this concept stands in direct contrast to another concept/doctrine that “everyone can know whether s/he is saved” while living. Some theologians apparently do not mind the conflict of reason…
No. Jesus taught during his ministry that his death is crucial for the salvation of mankind (Matt.20v28)
One is not saved through works or conduct but through a renewal of the heart by means of the Holy Spirit. After this “re-birth”, one needs to show the fruits such as good works, good conduct, faith, etc.
Sin entered the human race due to Adam and Eve’s sin. There is nothing mankind can do to negate this. That’s why God had to send a part of Him to fulfil the supreme sacrifice. This salvation can’t be earned. Mankind can only partake of this salvation by accepting Jesus as Saviour.
[quote=“ravage”]
Did the hand, or the finger ever worship God? Secondly if the Finger is no longer present in man after having written down what it was writing, is it still a seperate identity from God? Would Christians be correct to worship the God, the Holy Ghost, Jesus Christ and the Hand/Finger?
How can a bodypart of God worship the same God? The Finger/Hand referred to was not part of a man but was part of some supernatural manifestation of God Himself. If God place His Head in front of me, I will worship it as if it is God Almighty, even if it is only a part of God Almighty.
The whole of Genesis 1 as I have previously stated in past discussions. Other examples (to name but two) are:
Gen.19v24 Then the Lord (Jehovah) rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord (Jehovah) out of the heavens.
Zech.12v10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieves for a firstborn son.”
Those Christians that hold to the Tri-une concept does not differ on the concept. They might differ when looking at the individual parts and functions thereof. For example, they might differ on the exact way the Holy Spirit performs His duty but never about the concept of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as Almighty God.
another common thing is the first coming and the second coming i.e. end of the world.
both Bible and Quran have the story of Noah
& then how the second time, the world will become ash, burning out
for the day of judgement.
So this means it was not something Jesus preached about but was later incorporated into the Christian faith as a doctrine or dogma. I say dogma because not even the highest Chrsitian authority has been able to explain it. This makes me think about another question, which would be why did Jesus PBUH not see it fit to talk about Trinity and if he did not, was the Christian faith ever complete. If it was complete then on whose authority was Trinity indoctrinated when Jesus PBUH (who Christians view as God) did not see it fit to put in the Gospel he preached?
According to the muslim faith we cannot physically see Allah SWT (God) directly. There is a verse in the Quran where Prophet Moses requested Allah SWT to see him upon, which Moses was knocked unconscious and all the mountains surrounding him were obliterated into dust when Allah SWT only showed the tip of his finger. Moses could not see it because the mere presence of it could not be borne by any of the created things including Moses PBUH. Now we all know Allah SWT is all powerful and capable to doing everything. So even say if I take the Christian point of view that Allah SWT incarnated himself into the form of Jesus PBUH as a human, the next question would be, Why?
You actually answered your own question. Because sometimes it might be necessary to be able to be seen or touched by mere humans. God solved this problem with Jesus. It is written in the Bible that God in the form of a human body appeared a number of times to humans, as per a few examples given below. Christians take it that in all these cases it was Jesus who interacted with these humans.
Surely the question should not be “Why would God…”, but rather “Why can’t God…” in this instance.
If your question is based on the acceptance that God can be in some way visible to humans, and you merely wants to know “why Jesus and his ministry”, then it takes this discussion into the difference between the two religions of attaining salvation. This could be an eleventh point.
BTW: Christianity also believes that no one can “see” God Almighty “and live”. (Ex.33v19-20 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you…But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no-one may see me and live.”) Our finite and miniscule mind is unable to grasp God Almighty the same as a two dimensional being is unable to grasp the concept of a three dimensional being. The person that feel he understands God Almighty in all his facets, is busy with an idol and not God.
In Gen.32v22-32 Jacob wrestled with a “Man” later identified by him as God. According to him he physically “met” God.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.
In Gen.18-19v1 Abraham met 3 persons and asked them in for sustenance. One is identified as the Lord or God. Later while Abraham stand and discuss the impending distruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with the Lord, the other two went on to the cities alone.
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby…When the men got up to leave…Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way…Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the ourcry that has reached me…The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord…When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening…
Gen.3v8-21 The story of Adam and Eve and how God even made garments and clothed them.
Num.14v14 This verse allude to the many times Moses is mentioned to have seen God.
*…They have already heard that you, O Lord, are with these people and that you, O Lord, have been seen face to face…
In Josh.5v13-15 Joshua saw the commander of the army of the Lord and worshipped Him as he would God.
Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him…Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence…
Frequent contact, yes. I did not mean by absolute disconnect that God was silent or inactive. The Semetic model would be an absolute distinction between God and His creation and messengers/Prophets, in terms of identity.
Would you agree that Arius’s version was closer to the Semetic model in terms of the relationship of God and His Creation, and that the hypostates understanding of God is comparatively closer to the Greek philosophical concept of Emanation?
Im not sure what you mean by this, perhaps you can explain?
How did Jesus teach that his death was crucial, was it before his death or after it (when he was seen by apostles?). If before, did he describe his death, and did he give the rationale for why his death saved mankind?
So you mean to say that Christian conduct is meaningless without believing in Jesus as the son of God? Likewise, would someone who commits acts of evil while believing in Jesus as the son of God go to Hell or is he forever saved?
I dont understand. Why is sin a racial concept? In the modern world we know our ancestors committed many heinous crimes that God has forbidden. We know that certain tribes in Africa for example practiced cannibalism as a norm. Suppose their descendents now wish to be saved, would they require another person to sacrifice himself to God?
Even if sin were to be viewed as something passed over generations, can you explain why Jesus being captured, betrayed, and crucified saved mankind? If anything, isnt that a further damning of humanity? In the whole act of crucifixion the only person playing a selfless part is not human-proper, he is God. So basically what did humanity (not God) do to redeem itself?
It seems to me that I would be both paying for someone else’s sins, and being redeemed for them by someone else.
That was the weakness of your analogy. If Jesus was just an extension of God as would a body part (whether finger, or hand or Head or personalisation) then it does not make sense for the extension to worship itself.
Muslims do not usually have a literal understanding of God’s Hand/eyes/face, and I for one do not believe God should be anthropomorphised. I believe that is another Greek influence on the purer semetic religion.
but If God placed His Head before you, I would understand you worshipping it as an extension of the Almighty, as long as you were infact worshipping the Almighty and not making a differentiation of identity between them. But suppose He placed it before you, then took it back in your lifetime. Would you be correct in worshipping the Head on its own by say creating likenesses of it yourself. Suppose generations later, people still worshipped a Head, only now they are in mexico so they have a mexican looking Head to worship, seperately from the God they associate it with?
I dont see how these relate to your argument that God before Christianity was depicted in earlier abrahimic revelation in way close to the Tri-une. Perhaps that wasnt your point? But I again ask why would Christianity have such a drastically different conception of God existing in three seperate identities that have different personalities and talk to each other compared to earlier (and later)semetic religions, which do not split God into smaller gods?
God is an eternal concept, no? Was Abraham and Moses’s understanding of God incorrect?
And you did you not explain how Trinity is an aid in understanding God if it needs explanation and debate within Christianity to be codified (and the specifics are different in each denomination) and why it is a more understandable approach to God for the feeble human mind as compared to the Jewish/Islamic conception of God?
Is God as revealed in the Torah and the Old Testament, an incorrect depiction? If not then I would argue that that is a much simpler conception for feeble human minds?
That was my point. They differ on the specifics of the entities, their nature, their creation, their function, their relationships. Which then begs the question, how is God more easily conceptualized through the Tri-Une concept if that concept leads to such differences of interpretation, even within those who hold to it?
You know, I had a conversation with one of my conservative Christian friends, and I tried to point out that evening that there is so much in common between us, and why not just take some happiness in that? Well, guess what the response was? The response was that I don't take Jesus to be the saviour and the Son of God, and therefore, I am in no way similar to her, and wont ever be unless I accept that belief as fact.
Needless to say, my belief that my friend is an intolerant nutjob like most conservative Bible thumpers has been reinforced.
I don't know if you realize this, but they don't really "love" everybody. And neither does their so-called "jesus, son of God". They want, like any other religious group, everyone to believe in what they believe, and if a person chooses not to, he/she is not on their approval list.
I never really knew conservative Christians are so intolerant, but they really are. Not that muslims can be any better, but being muslim and living in the West, you tend to open up your mind more, since you're not in the majority. But these guys - forget it. They don't believe in any interfaith anything. Either you're a good ol' Christian or not.
Needless to say, my belief that my friend is an intolerant nutjob like most conservative Bible thumpers has been reinforced.
I don't know if you realize this, but they don't really "love" everybody. And neither does their so-called "jesus, son of God". They want, like any other religious group, everyone to believe in what they believe, and if a person chooses not to, he/she is not on their approval list.
I never really knew conservative Christians are so intolerant, but they really are. Not that muslims can be any better, but being muslim and living in the West, you tend to open up your mind more, since you're not in the majority. But these guys - forget it. They don't believe in any interfaith anything. Either you're a good ol' Christian or not.
**And argueing usually entreches both sides deeper....:( **
Jesus did not put it in a Gospel since he never wrote one. He did teach his disciples that he and God the Father are equal but still different. He also spoke of the Holy Spirit using personal atributes and being a part of God. I will give some instances of these.
Except for Jesus’ own words, none of his disciples/apostles and other people that knew him personally had a problem in identifying Jesus with God. I again will give a few examples.
Therefor your statement that the concept of the “Trinity” was later added, does not hold water. The word “Trinity” might be a late conception (actually Origen used it a century before the mentioned synod), so what. The word “Bible” is just such a word later used to explain something non-existent in Jesus’ times.
In Matt.16v13-17 Jesus asked his disciples who they think he is. Peter replied that “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God”. Jesus agreed with him.
In Luk.11v20 Jesus stated “…if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the Kingdom of God has come to you.”
In Luk.24v52 and other places Jesus accepted worship from his followers.
In Joh.10v30 Jesus said “I and the Father are one”.
In Rev.1v8 Jesus states that “I am the Alpha and the Omega…who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty”.
John the apostle wrote in Joh.1v1-18 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us…No-one has ever seen God (Almighty) but God the only Son…”
In Joh.3v13-18 Jesus told Nicodemus “No-one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man…For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” Jesus in various instances express that people should believe in him for saving grace. Jesus therefor pointed to himself as the Saviour. See also Joh.3v35-36.
In Joh.5v16-27 Jesus teach that all judgement is given to him by the God Father, and his listeners realize that “he was even calling God his Father, making himself equal with God”. See also Joh.8v58-59.
In Joh.14v15, 15v26 and Joh.16v7-8 Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person calling the Holy Spirit “he” with humanlike traits.
In Matt.28v19 Jesus commanded his followers to go out and teach what he taught them and to baptize “them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. In various other instances the three are also mentioned in the same breath as if there exist a link between them.
In Col.2v9 Paul states that “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”.
In Phil.2v6-11 Paul, using the prophet Ezekiel’s words, state that “Christ Jesus, Who, being in very nature God… God exalted him…and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…”. All in heaven, earth and even the demon world will worship Jesus.
In Heb.1v2 the writer states that God created the universe through Jesus.
In Heb.1v6 the writer states “when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him”.
I am no “highest Christian authority” and I feel I can explain it! Surely the statement is a little overboard? I have explained it to children as young as 6 and upon questioning them, they also understood it perfectly. Maybe it is because numerous Christian teachers/scholars have themselve no real relationship with God and their human mind/reason prevent them to accept what is clearly shown in the Bible. I don’t know…
In discussing whether Jesus is part of the God-entity, one should also examine the concept of Messiah or Christ and this Person’s relation to God.
It just becomes impossible to read and understand the way God is portrayed in the Bible without coming to a concept of a Tri-une God. Christianity do not stand and fall on the “Trinity” concept. It is merely a way to picture God Almighty. If there exist a better way to explain all scripture, then by all means, let us hear it.
PyariCgudia, I know just what you are talking about and it actually is a shame. By these attitudes these people are driving people away from their faith. But don't you think there exist such a situation among ALL religious people who are earnest with their faith?
Holding to a certain faith automatically force people to keep themselves separate and to sometimes look down on others "not so blessed".
Surely the question should not be "Why would God...", but rather "Why can't God..." in this instance.
How will you recognize God in human form when people could not even accept prophets who were from among them. There must be something in the human being to enforce the idea that he is God incarnate. What was there in Jesus PBUH that proves he is God in human form? Surely, if we can witness God out of the unseen then there is no test of faith. There is no need for faith.
Lets leave this eleventh point for now.
In Gen.32v22-32 Jacob wrestled with a "Man" later identified by him as God. According to him he physically "met" God.
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because **I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.
In Gen.18-19v1 Abraham met 3 persons and asked them in for sustenance. One is identified as the Lord or God. Later while Abraham stand and discuss the impending distruction of Sodom and Gomorrah with the Lord, the other two went on to the cities alone.
Abraham looked up and saw **three* men standing nearby.....When the men got up to leave....Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way....Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the ourcry that has reached me....The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.....When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home. The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening....*
Gen.3v8-21 The story of Adam and Eve and how God even made garments and clothed them.
Num.14v14 This verse allude to the many times Moses is mentioned to have seen God.
.....They have already heard that you, O Lord, are with these people and that you, O Lord, **have been seen face to face....
- In Josh.5v13-15 Joshua saw the commander of the army of the Lord and worshipped Him as he would God.
*Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him....Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence...
If God appeared in so many human forms then why diefy Jesus PBUH only. Does this not indicate that the form in which God appeared according to the bible is irrelevant because it happened in many different places in different times in different forms to different people. So the only true God, which is one no matter in what shape or form he appeared should be worshipped rather than selecting one shape or form. And further more were all the other forms of God also triune, there is nothing in the bible to suggest that. So did the nature of God change over time.