Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Of course its getting old. Its time people stop listening to self-proclaimed maulvis and try to understand Islam by actually picking up the Quran and reading it own their own for a change.
Which self proclaimed maulvi's translation do you suggest we read?:D
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Some key ones are missing:
Quron says think - to many believe mullas saying otherwuise
Quron says believe and be faithful - mulla interprets it as stop thinking and blindly follow
Quron says Respect..many interpret it as command others
What is Quron?
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Of course its getting old. Its time people stop listening to self-proclaimed maulvis and try to understand Islam by actually picking up the Quran and reading it own their own for a change.
Agree.
Let me clarify a bit.
Read Quran then judge a Mullah/Moulvi/Aalimah if he/she is true or just self proclaimed spiritual leader. Off course it will take hard work and honest search which takes time and effort. Some people just avoid this hard work and blame mullah/maulvi for going stray.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Of course its getting old. Its time people stop listening to self-proclaimed maulvis and try to understand Islam by actually picking up the Quran and reading it own their own for a change.
Same way, stop going to college and buy some books and become a self-studied doctor, lawyer. There is no need of these old professors, we have brains. :D
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
I think hanibal started this nice thread for a good reason and the discussion is going off track.
TA made comment which was not appropriate and the thread got derailed.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Quite sad. All this thinking posted by Hanibal sounds like an anti-mulla propaganda which is really in fashion now a days.
Islam works on believing first and learning later. Most of us want to learn first and believe later. And irony is that we believe in self learning. Sahaba who were the Ulemas of Ulemas, learned Quran from Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). The reason we treat Quran the way which Hanibal posted at the beginning is because we refuse to learn it from those Mullas, he referred to in #10.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Islam works on believing first and learning later.
On the contrary... what you are referring to is called "blind faith", not Islam. This "blind faith" is present in many religions and is nothing special. Try understanding the message and watch your belief rise all by itself.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Jinaab, you need to differentiate between following a prophet of Allah SWT and following a learned scholar. What you need to believe is in the Quran and Sunnah, pick it up, read it and believe it. Learn it as you start practicing it. Do not act on any of the controversial issues until you have your own understanding of it. Blindly acting upon controversial issues based on scholars opinions is what leads to religious suicide. I think any of us who have sincerely tried to read and understand the Quran, Sirah and Sunnah realize religion is no mystery or difficult to understand, and you can independently think about your actions w.r.t. your religion. People who are not willing to endeavour this are the ones who almost diefy scholars.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
WASK USR..., I again emphasize that Quran and Sunnah may seem straight forward (and to certain extent it is) but cannot be understood just by reading it. We don't read medical books and become a medical doctor. We go to schools and have teachers make us understand. Why such a resistance towards learning a Tafseer from a scholar.
Today we have so many sects in Islam because someone, somewhere refused to learn it from a scholar of his time and insist on self learning, reulting in finding his own meanings of shariah and created a new sect. BTW, all those people were sincere (as mentoined by USRes.. " I think any of us who have sincerely tried to read and understand the Quran, Sirah and Sunnah realize religion is no mystery or difficult to understand") in their efforts but end up in dividing the ummah in more sects.
And with all due respect to hypnotix... is that not what quran says in second sura, 2nd and 3rd verse that "this is the book of guidance for those ..... (who) believe in the unseen .... (blind faith, isn't it). That is what I meant by "you belive first and learn later". Your guidance from Quran will not come if you dont have a faith (on unseen) first.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
And with all due respect to hypnotix... is that not what quran says in second sura, 2nd and 3rd verse that "this is the book of guidance for those ..... (who) believe in the unseen .... (blind faith, isn't it).
With all due respect, bro Tariq Khan, you cannot not believe in the unseen through blind faith. The Quran tells you to open your eyes and study the universe to "see" God through the wonders that are His creation...
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
With all due respect, bro Tariq Khan, you cannot not believe in the unseen through blind faith. The Quran tells you to open your eyes and study the universe to "see" God through the wonders that are His creation...
What is the difference between blind faith and believe in unseen? Also, where did Quran say to "see" God through the wonders that are his creation? Could you eleborate?
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
What is the difference between blind faith and believe in unseen? Also, where did Quran say to "see" God through the wonders that are his creation? Could you eleborate?
Let the message of The God explain for itself what the difference is:
وكذلك نري إبرهيم ملكوت السموت والأرض وليكون من الموقنين
And it is such that We showed Abraham the kingdom of heavens and Earth, so that he would be of those who have certainty.
فلما جن عليه اليل رءا كوكبا قال هذا ربي فلما أفل قال لا أحب الءافلين
(And this is how We brought him to the light: ) When his (understanding of the universe) was veiled/covered by the darkness (of ignorance), he saw a planet, and said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "I do not adore those that fade away."
فلما رءا القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي فلما أفل قال لئن لم يهدني ربي لأكونن من القوم الضالين
So when he saw the moon rising, he said: "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said: "If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the wicked people!"
فلما رءا الشمس بازغة قال هذا ربي هذا أكبر فلما أفلت قال يقوم إني بريء مما تشركون
So when he saw the sun rising, he said: "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said: "My people, I am innocent of that which you have set up."
إني وجهت وجهي للذي فطر السموت والأرض حنيفا وما أنا من المشركين
"I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the Earth, in monotheism, and I am not of those who set up partners."
The above could be literal or metaphoric. But it explains how Abraham "journeyed" to his Lord, through thinking and understanding. You call the above blind faith?
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Agree. Let me clarify a bit.
Read Quran then judge a Mullah/Moulvi/Aalimah if he/she is true or just self proclaimed spiritual leader. Off course it will take hard work and honest search which takes time and effort. Some people just avoid this hard work and blame mullah/maulvi for going stray.
EXACTLY!! I think this is the first time I agreed with you on something.
I meant the same.
To the person who claims even the sahabah learned from the Prophet - nice argument. BUT, it can easily cause a person to do sin. You need to still read the Quran on your own and understand it on your own and then you need to figure out whether the Maulvi you're listening to is adhering to the Prophet's way and to what the Quran says (which is the same thing as the Prophet's way).
The Prophet never actually said or did anything in contradiction to the Quran, hence we can say the Sahabah learned the Quran from the Prophet. But they also learned it from the Prophet in the sense that the verses were revealed from the Prophet's mouth.
Therefore, the Sahabah-Prophet relationship is not the same as today's student of Islam-average Maulvi in the average Masjid in Pakistan relationship.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
WASK USR..., I again emphasize that Quran and Sunnah may seem straight forward (and to certain extent it is) but cannot be understood just by reading it. We don't read medical books and become a medical doctor. We go to schools and have teachers make us understand. Why such a resistance towards learning a Tafseer from a scholar. Today we have so many sects in Islam because someone, somewhere refused to learn it from a scholar of his time and insist on self learning, reulting in finding his own meanings of shariah and created a new sect. BTW, all those people were sincere (as mentoined by USRes.. " I think any of us who have sincerely tried to read and understand the Quran, Sirah and Sunnah realize religion is no mystery or difficult to understand") in their efforts but end up in dividing the ummah in more sects.
And with all due respect to hypnotix... is that not what quran says in second sura, 2nd and 3rd verse that "this is the book of guidance for those ..... (who) believe in the unseen .... (blind faith, isn't it). That is what I meant by "you belive first and learn later". Your guidance from Quran will not come if you dont have a faith (on unseen) first.
This is where I differ. It depends on what it is you are trying to ascertain. Islam is not a science, which requires experimentation or research oriented development as opposed to what is taught in schools, colleges and universities. This is the wrong parable for understanding Islam.
If I say Islam says pray to Allah SWT, what is so complicated about it that requires a scholar to teach you when you can learn how to pray just by reading the correct literature. If I say be honest, what is so complicated about it. The things that are complicated are when human interactions are involved and administrative tasks need to be setup and followed and quite frankly, Islam teaches us the principles we need to embody in those systems such as Zakat, witness testimonies etc and give high level guidelines on their purpose and practice. The rest depends on circumstance and your own wisdom, something scholars cannot teach you in a loose sense.
Its interesting that all sects are led and created by scholars not commoners. What is the sense of having read a tafsir if you need a scholar to teach it to you. The tafsir is supposed to be an explanation itself, if you need a scholar to give further explanation of an explanation then it is not a very good tafsir is it.
Most the sects are created by carrying out their political agendas for most part. Almost every sect I know of had a political motive that needed fulfilled if not fame or power, it was less of religion by itself.
I would be curious to see an example for which scholars are needed even when the literature for it is available.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
^ so true.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
USR... bhai
Tafsir requires one to know arabic grammer and idioms (sirf and Nahwa), knowledge of Nasikh and Mansookh, Knowledge of when, where and why and how an Ayat was revelaed. Also it requires a complete command of Ilm-hadees. If one knows all that then yes, why not, one can read and understand quran without a teacher (for all the pre-reqs. though, one needs a teacher or teachers)
I dont think that sects were created by carrying out their political agendas. They developed unique belief system based on ther understanding of shariah.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
There are excellent translations out there with excellent footnotes and side notes that explain the context in which an ayah was revealed, arabic grammer and idioms and the such. There are so many such written resources out there, that one can find a reliable translation easily today.
The problem comes in when you have maulvis who give the WRONG context for ayahs, quote them out of context, provide ghalat arabic grammer and idioms or leave important information out to bias the Quran reader towards their interpretation of Islam as a violent religion (and don't tell me there aren't such people - the media in Pakistan is doing an excellent job of giving them coverage where they literally state that Islam is not a religion of Peace - I can give you some examples).
Add to that the FACT that a huge percentage of muslims around the world are illiterate, or read at very low reading levels due to their own misfortune and poverty, that its very difficult these days for a person to pick out a reliable translation, read it, and take out the time to compare it with other translations. Enters the present day maulvi who can deliver all this information to you more quickly and verbally. Problem is that these poor unfortunate souls have no way to really validate what the maulvi is saying other than that it appeals to their emotion.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
Gudia Behan, those translations were done by Maulvis of some era, right? That is exactly what my point is. We need some scholars (alive, dead, in person or through writings) who help us to understand Shariah.
Can I ask you and USR.. one question. If you are performing Namaz (Salat) and you make a mistake, under what conditions Sijda-e-Sahaw is enough and when is that you have to repeat the salat?
Could you answer that above question, just by reading Quran with good footnotes or will you go to Mufti Sahib to get the answer. I brought up this specific question because USR.. said "If I say Islam says pray to Allah SWT, what is so complicated about it that requires a scholar to teach you when you can learn how to pray just by reading the correct literature". And again, any other literature is written by a maulvi, anyway. And how will you decide which literature is correct?
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
USR... bhai Tafsir requires one to know arabic grammer and idioms (sirf and Nahwa), knowledge of Nasikh and Mansookh, Knowledge of when, where and why and how an Ayat was revelaed. Also it requires a complete command of Ilm-hadees. If one knows all that then yes, why not, one can read and understand quran without a teacher (for all the pre-reqs. though, one needs a teacher or teachers)
I dont think that sects were created by carrying out their political agendas. They developed unique belief system based on ther understanding of shariah.
Ji Meray bhai
The purpose of a tafsir is to explain all the things you mentioned. The one needs knowledge of all that is the one who writes the tafsir. And there is plenty of good literature available on everything you have stated. Infact scholars have treated religion like a science and expanded it way beyond what it needed to be, hence all the confusion. it was indeed quite simple in the Prophet SAW time. My earlier post had said, if you want to understand Islam you need to read Quran, Sirah and Sunnah, let me just expand a little bit what I meant by that or what I do i.e. Quran with translation and tafsir, Sirah detailed not 100 page ones, Ahadith with their commentary and Usool/Ilm. Its complicated for those who want to believe that it is. A lot of people are now studying and understanding there religion after centuries of blindly following, which is why so much opposition to Mullahs and Maulvi's. People are educated now and have a sense of perception. Don't think people who get graduate degrees are dumb enough not to be able to understand religious literature. Those educated people who are misguided though they possess vast religious knowledge is primarily because of their obtuse environments and upbringing.
Take the madhabs for example, All those people were mashallah were great jurists and scholars but they did not form any madhabs, they behaved simply like learned men and thats it. We made the madhabs from their teachings and created these divisions.
I am still waiting for an example about the Quran which you require a scholar and it cannot be understood with the proper self study.
Let me quote a controversial verse for you:
003.028 *
**YUSUFALI:* Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
This is one of the most popular verses in the books of those non-muslims who like to defame Islam. What do you understand from this? Now like I mentioned if you try and read without the proper research you will get some very radical ideas from this verse. I have not learnt my religion from any scholar but by self study of tafsirs, sirahs and ahadith. To me it simply has never made sense with all the scholarly or non-scholarly explanations put forth for this verse. I have never formed a belief about this verse until I finished my own study from the sirah and found the answer myself. Which was my point, leave our the controversial topics and you do not even require a scholar. On controversial issues scholars create more confusion than sense, which is why your own self motivated quest for the correct understanding usually pays off much better.
Re: Insult of Islam is Muslims
The verses you posted above are pretty clear to me. What conclusion of meaning did you reach by reading other sources of knowledge? To me, its pretty self-explanatory. Don't be decieved by people who really truly are disbelievers.