So muslim beard is equivalent to "kirpan" and "trishol" according to hindus....lol
You can use "tilak" in place of "trishul". The underlying fact is that they are all religious symbols.
well, its quite obvious that when the 'man' challenged the school's authority, and dragged it to the court, sure the school too gave some reasons to defend it self. reasons as to why the no-beard rule exists. its not like the 'man' suddenly bunked the school and went to a judge and the judge just turned him away. when someone brings some organisation or institution to the court, a fixed protocol is followed, where the challenged is sent a memo or court order, and is asked to defend itself.
as to why the rule exists, well, most to all convent schools follow the British missionary way of schooling, wherein keeping a beard is not generally allowed.
and yes, when you get to see freaking Talibs daily on the stupid box, jumping up and down in Afghanistan and NWFP, gunning and bombing people around, forming quite crude, cruel and ancient laws, then most people do get a bit freaked out, like our freaking judge! :D
The rule is discriminatory against personal choice. Please read below for further explanation.
So this judge is no better than a kid who cannot sleep after watching a bad movie!:D Thanks.
School rules are normally made by schools keeping some basic things in mind. Perhaps if you were to look at this schools rule for not keeping beard, you will not find any such rule . What it would say is the there should be no "facial hair". While you are thinking of beard as the free flowing long beards, the school (as they kids are still 14-15 year old) is more worried about 1-2 day old "stubble". And if you have seen anyone with a day or two stubble, he looks kind of lazy and sleepy. So the rule is nothing more then a way for the school that every student looks** properly groomed,** nothing wrong with that.
As i have added in my last post, the Peshawar high court judge had asked a women lawyer not to wear a veil in the court as she was a professional. Bascially his intent was to convey the message that the judge had to see the face of the lawyer to know he was indeed talking to the right lawyer and also so that he could hear her clearly. Now you can take this situation and understand what the intent is !!!!!!
OK sir.
My post will be directed to the bold words of your post. Not necessarily in same order.
1- It is still discriminatory to have a rule against personal **choice on having or not having **something as personal as facial hair.
2- You mentioned that the rule may not even be found. Then essentially we can bunk all the arguments saying this man knowingly went to a school, or questioned school's position just to start a problem. Besides school had no right to have verdict in their favor if there was no rule existed like that. But off course this is not the only reason this freaky judge gave verdict as we all know by now.
3- I was waiting for this since the middle of this thread that somehow this discussion will go on to the style and size/length of beard.:)
1-2 day stubble can still look good if properly kept and shaped. The school if it had some respect for personal freedom had carefully reviewed the wish of the student and instead of making him go to get help from a biased judge, the matter could have been resolved by simply telling the man to properly groom his facial hair till he gets a full blown hairy beard. As a man you can imagine that I suppose. A good happy medium would have achieved this way.
4- You mentioned about lazy and sleepy. I must say this is true in terms of people/society expectation. Just as general example, one wakes up,..... picks up a razor/shaving machine, shaves his face, takes a shower, ..........goes to work or school.
Also one wakes up, .....picks up a scissor, trims facial hair, takes shower,....goes to work or school.
In both examples, the person is not lazy or sleepy looking.
Now, if you talk about one or two day" stubble", they can still look alright provided they are trimmed to certain shape or length.
Neither the judge:D nor school gave this man room to go for a happy medium.
Sorry, I just get amused whenever I think of this judge. A funny man indeed.
5- Let us talk about society's expectation.
A couple of years ago, a woman made a remark about a man (both not Muslims) who used to come and work with a facial look as if he had not shaved for two days saying,
"Oh it looks like he just rolled out of his bed and came to work!!!" :-)
It was very amusing and we all laughed. But it came to my mind that are we making fun of a guy who is brilliant in his work, always punctual and on top of that is very humble and nice to everyone? What right did we have to have fun at his expense? His facial hair and choice not to shave should not bother anyone at all.
6- Peshawar High court event you mentioned above and I ignored it simply because of these reasons:
a- It was an advise and not a ruling by the judge.
b- There was a clear, sensible reason given for this advice.
c- The judge did not act as a stupidly biased person!
Hence it does not relate to the content of this thread at all.
when people mention trishul it looks funny, only sadhus & baba's carry those
It's funny that you are making fun of your own religion.
You can use "tilak" in place of "trishul". The underlying fact is that they are all religious symbols.
Muslims don't have to take weapons as religious symbols with them and beard is like "tilak" or wearing "cross" and it's not a weapon so why compare it with weapons like "kirpan" and "trishol"?
The rule is discriminatory against personal choice. Please read below for further explanation.
So this judge is no better than a kid who cannot sleep after watching a bad movie!:D Thanks.
there's a limit to allowing 'personal choice', sir.
if 'personal choice' becomes the basis of not following the laws of the land, then well, Khuda khair kare.
actually the Talibans/Jehadis having a very rigid 'personal choice' of ruling the world with Shariah rule is the cause of Pakistan's instability today, and before shoutings of derailing the topic comes, thats just an example. :)
so, we can very much expect and accept 'inappropriate' clothing at school, because after all, its a matter of 'personal choice'.
Ofcourse. no bad film than a TV report on Talibans.
and you'r soo welcomee! :D :)
It's funny that you are making fun of your own religion.
Muslims don't have to take weapons as religious symbols with them and beard is like "tilak" or wearing "cross" and it's not a weapon so why compare it with weapons like "kirpan" and "trishol"?
exactly, and you dont even get warnings like, "you are now a kafir" or "outta our religion" for doing that! :)
and Trishol isnt even a 'religious symbol'. Tilak is more like it. or sindoor + bindi for the women. btw, even Bengali Muslim women wear bindis on a daily basis.
India and Pakistan. More than 50 years of Independence stand so different today. On one side, Pakistan is a collapsed country, where their own government does not have control of large portions of it's country like SWAT etc.
On the other side, India is a major economic super power and you can see Indians standing shoulder to shoulder with everyone! PM Manmohan Singh and Barack Obama at the G-20 summit in London stood equal. Where are the bumbling fools of Pakistan?
In every field, India is rising. India's popular Bollywood is taking the world by storm! India's IT industry is the best! Indian sportsmen have won Olympic medals including gold and India's cricket team is on a winning spree! So how is all this possible? Without freedom? No...There is so much of freedom in India, much much more than Pakistan. In the name of religious freedom, Pakistan has allowed itself to destroy from within. They have become fanatics.
In a secular state, there is a fine line between religious freedom and the rule of the land. No one will stop you from praying or following your religion, but keep it private! Well, you can still do sermons over the loudspeaker and do prayers on the road but there is a limit to it.
In a pure space like a school, where young innocent people are studying, they SHOULD NOT be exposed to differences at such a young age. A lone single guy sporting a beard in class will make their impressionable minds think about religion which is not the age for that. They should be studying, not fighting over gods....
That exactly is the cause of Pakistan's disintegration today is that they have gone overboard with religion. Today there are absolutely no minorities in Pakistan, which tells us a lot about religious freedom in their own country. This is a major problem with Islamic countries, in their own countries, they don't allow the freedom for other religions but they want equal rights everywhere else. What hypocrites!
You can praise India all you want, we have praises for our country too... just contribute to the topic straight forward and move on.
Sure length of the hair on your head and also your nails are also personal choices. So tell me do they allow students to have long hair and long nails in Pakistani schools. What about uniforms … schools in India have uniforms .. do they have same in Pakistan … or is it a personal issue too. After all most religious scripture have strict guidelines for clothing too !!!Beard or facial hair falls in the same category.
Perhaps you don’t understand english or you just did not read my post. My statement was that perhaps the school had no rule for beard but had one for facial hair. Which indicates what this rule is meant for. You clearly missed the point.
Indian SC interpreted the law as it is stated … minority institutions in India (like the christian school in discussion) are allowed to formulate rules to govern and run their institutions. So if they have a rule for not keeping beard SC can do very little to provide relief. However the guy in question could have taken admission in a government run institution, but then there would be no case of discrimination then !!!
In the end comparison between veil and beard was in the context of religious symbolism. If a PHC judge can ask a lawyer to remove a veil don’t know why the beard becomes a more holier symbol. But then there would be no issue then 
Here is the news item which specifically mentions the policy of school regarding the beard
Salim had challenged Nirmala Convent Higher Secondary School’s policy requiring male students to be clean-shaven. The school comes under Sagar diocese in Madhya Pradesh state
Father Illimoottil said the school does not discriminate against any religion but wants to “make sure every student follows school rules and discipline.” The priest pointed out the school’s rule book “explicitly” forbids students from wearing beards. “There was nothing secret about it.”
http://www.ucanews.com/2009/03/31/supreme-court-rules-for-catholic-school-over-students-beard/
The rule is discriminatory against personal choice. Please read below for further explanation.
So this judge is no better than a kid who cannot sleep after watching a bad movie!:D Thanks.
I believe this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread, but if someone wanted to come naked to school in the name of personal choice should that also be allowed ? Or if someone wanted to wear rubber slippers instead of black shoes should that be allowed too in the name of personal choice.
The problem with some Muslims is that they expect the world to stop when it comes to them exercising freedom of religion. Dude, its your religion - practice it in the confines of your home or place of worship. Why use it as an issue to create a big "tamasha" elsewhere ?
there's a limit to allowing 'personal choice', sir. if 'personal choice' becomes the basis of not following the laws of the land, then well, Khuda khair kare. actually the Talibans/Jehadis having a very rigid 'personal choice' of ruling the world with Shariah rule is the cause of Pakistan's instability today, and before shoutings of derailing the topic comes, thats just an example. :)
so, we can very much expect and accept 'inappropriate' clothing at school, because after all, its a matter of 'personal choice'.
Ofcourse. no bad film than a TV report on Talibans. and you'r soo welcomee! :D :)
Yes there is a limit. A limit to how much we can beat this topic too.
The guy had no problem with shoes, uniform, and did not want to come to school naked so why jump around the topic?
Like I mentioned, a nicely trimmed facial hair should have been allowed to obtain a happy medium.
Wen have already established there was no connection to talibanism in this matter as this stupid SC judge.:D
India and Pakistan. More than 50 years of Independence stand so different today. On one side, Pakistan is a collapsed country, where their own government does not have control of large portions of it's country like SWAT etc.
On the other side, India is a major economic super power and you can see Indians standing shoulder to shoulder with everyone! PM Manmohan Singh and Barack Obama at the G-20 summit in London stood equal. Where are the bumbling fools of Pakistan?
In every field, India is rising. India's popular Bollywood is taking the world by storm! India's IT industry is the best! Indian sportsmen have won Olympic medals including gold and India's cricket team is on a winning spree! So how is all this possible? Without freedom? No...There is so much of freedom in India, much much more than Pakistan. In the name of religious freedom, Pakistan has allowed itself to destroy from within. They have become fanatics.
In a secular state, there is a fine line between religious freedom and the rule of the land. No one will stop you from praying or following your religion, but keep it private! Well, you can still do sermons over the loudspeaker and do prayers on the road but there is a limit to it.
In a pure space like a school, where young innocent people are studying, they SHOULD NOT be exposed to differences at such a young age. A lone single guy sporting a beard in class will make their impressionable minds think about religion which is not the age for that. They should be studying, not fighting over gods....
That exactly is the cause of Pakistan's disintegration today is that they have gone overboard with religion. Today there are absolutely no minorities in Pakistan, which tells us a lot about religious freedom in their own country. This is a major problem with Islamic countries, in their own countries, they don't allow the freedom for other religions but they want equal rights everywhere else. What hypocrites!
While you made grossly mistaken remarks, dude! the comparison of two countries is not the topic.
Bashing Pakistan just to vent out your hatred will not get you anywhere.
Post after reading previous posts or even the title of thread.
I believe this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread, but if someone wanted to come naked to school in the name of personal choice should that also be allowed ? Or if someone wanted to wear rubber slippers instead of black shoes should that be allowed too in the name of personal choice.
The problem with some Muslims is that they expect the world to stop when it comes to them exercising freedom of religion. Dude, its your religion - practice it in the confines of your home or place of worship. Why use it as an issue to create a big "tamasha" elsewhere ?
First paragraph of your has been answered.
Another muslim bashing comment. You can keep it where it belongs. ( I said it nicely too...)
Freedom for all is what is being discussed Dude!
The biggest tamasha was when the judge spoke out his remarks. Wish there was a video of this comedy.
Originally Posted by **aam bandha** [http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/world-affairs/316412-indian-supreme-court-says-no-beard-school-doesnt-want-talibanisation-post6429982.html#post6429982)
School rules are normally made by schools keeping some basic things in mind. Perhaps **if you were to look at this schools rule for not keeping beard, you will not find any such rule** . What it would say is the **there should be no "facial hair".** While you are thinking of beard as the free flowing long beards, the school (as they kids are still 14-15 year old) is more worried about **1-2 day old "stubble"**.
Again uniform was not a problem for this man nor other things.
Your very own posts contradicted.
In earlier post you mentioned there might not be a rule about beard but rule might be about facial hair hence the discussion went on that direction.
This post mentioned that there was a rule about beard and not facial hair per se.
Don’t know where u got the idea that I had any problem understanding your written english?
However, minorities have a lot more rights in India than in any other Asian country.
I think you misplaced your smilies there. This the best joke I have read in some time. Keep them coming.
It is a shame that you guys equate beard to Talibanisation or terrorists. I dont know if you are muslim or not, if you are you need to go back and learn about Islam. Beard is sunnah, having one does not make you a Taliban or a terrorist.
Yes there is a limit. A limit to how much we can beat this topic too.
The guy had no problem with shoes, uniform, and did not want to come to school naked so why jump around the topic?
Like I mentioned, a nicely trimmed facial hair should have been allowed to obtain a happy medium.
Wen have already established there was no connection to talibanism in this matter as this stupid SC judge.:D
My point exactly. i dont know how many new pages would be added discussing a man's darhi.
facial hair is not allowed at all. and if such degree of strictness is followed, do you think beards would be allowed?
whateva you say, bro.
i'm outta this discussion. its an insult to my intelligence and time to babble about some God-knows-who guy's beard. :D
Sure you want to do it all over again we can do that too !!!
Now look back at the highlighted portion of my statement … the only word not highlighted in PERHAPS … look it up in a dictionary and then make sense of the statement …
Let me break it down for you … your opposition to “no beard” rule was that it was against personal freedom. While i was trying to explain that beard, as far as schools are concerned, falls under the same category as hair on the head and your nails. Issues of personal hygeine which normally schools are particular about. So the school rules are made in that context. Now i was not familiar with this “particular” school and their rules but that was the logical conclusion one would make. Well i might be completely wrong and perhaps the school administrators had some “beard” fetish and so forbade them !!!
First paragraph of your has been answered.
Another muslim bashing comment. You can keep it where it belongs. ( I said it nicely too...)
Freedom for all is what is being discussed Dude!
The biggest tamasha was when the judge spoke out his remarks. Wish there was a video of this comedy.
Victim mentality at work again :)
Its not a Muslim bashing comment - its a comment aimed at religious fundamentalism, which Muslims seem to display more than others.
[quote="hareem01"]
So muslim beard is equivalent to "kirpan" and "trishol" according to hindus....lol[/quoute]
Secular India is the biggest joke! Beard among muslims is a fard and every muslim should keep it, no exception- A muslim looks kafir without a beard, we were told growing up. Indian muslims are biggest non-practicing muslims. Islam is the most peaceful and tolerant religion but things like no beard should not be tolerated at all and one must be punished for violating it.
Re: Indian Supreme Court says no beard in school, doesn't want 'Talibanisation'
^ the only peaceful muslim society in the world is in India. It is not by accident - they understand tolerance and progress comes from democracy.
if you call them non-practicing muslims they don't really care what people like you who think or support daily bombings as the practice of Islam, say. Like the guy in the recent video told Musharaf to his face, who cares whether you think they are practicing or not?
[quote="hareem01"]
So muslim beard is equivalent to "kirpan" and "trishol" according to hindus....lol[/quoute]
Secular India is the biggest joke! Beard among muslims is a fard and every muslim should keep it, no exception- A muslim looks kafir without a beard, we were told growing up. Indian muslims are biggest non-practicing muslims. Islam is the most peaceful and tolerant religion but things like no beard should not be tolerated at all and one must be punished for violating it.
You were told wrong....
Don't know why you think that somehow not shaving for a month makes one person more muslim than the other