Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Nauman72, A.P.J. Abdul Kalam is India’s third muslim President. I agree that he is powerless in day-to-day affairs, but he is the supreme commander of the armed forces, he can dissolve state assemblies and enforce President’s rule there, he takes charge in emergencies and he can send a bill back to the Parliament (although once) if he disapproves.
But in bureaucracy (or beuraucrazy) and in Police, IPS and Army, there are very few Muslims.
In the Central govt. India’s water resources minister is a Muslim (Saifuddin Soz) and the secretary of foreign affairs is E. Ahmed. But believe me there are scores of Muslim Members of Legislative Assembly (MLA) of the UP, Bihar, MP and Chhatisgargh state Governments besides of course Jammu & Kashmir. There are and have been some Muslim governors of state also.
This may be reffered to :
I disagree that Pakistan is secular, because non-Muslims aren’t allowed to occupy the posts of President and maybe PM and other high posts. Muslims wanting to convert out of Islam are sentenced to death, whereas there is no such law in India.
Hindus in Pakistan are governed by Islamic laws of Pakistani constitution, whereas Muslims in India have their own Law Board.
This in no way means that what happened in Gujarat 2002 is like OK. It was India’s blackest blot. The BJP got a fitting reply when they were thrown out of power in the next central elections because the people understood that the reigns of power cannot go to a Ku Klux Klan party.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
I think it is good that we both Pakistanis and Indians recognize the black spots on our history and recognize the plight of minorities in each other countries. Lets promote this to all around us so that what wrong has happened before does not get repeated again. Yes i agree to abhiman that Pakistan is not a classically secular state because we have no intention to separate Islam from state but we want to separate Maulvies from state, how we do that is a big question and i think our future very much depends on it.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Above debate does indicate that people on both sides of the border need to learn more and more about each other. Once we succeed in that, things can go a long way in improving our relations and would help people in getting rid of the parochial mindset many of us harbour.
Once that happens, western media and experts sitting in ivory towers and making opinions about Asian countries will have to look elsewhere.
Please read today's online version of The Hindu (Editorial as well as letters to the editor). Quite a few muslims in India have objected to the Haj subsidy which is being used as a vote bank tool.
MKF-You have stated that Pakistan has no intention of separating Islam from state...does that imply that Non-Muslims will not be provided equal opportunities ?? under which law they would continue to be governed even if you are able to keep obscurantists at bay ?
Here I would like to mention that during bloody partition, my maternal grandfather in Jammu saved a few lives (asking them to hide in fields behind his house) who were running away from the mob. I suppose such incidents also took place on the other side but unfortunately all these unsung heroes never find any mention anywhere.
I strongly believe that our young generation needs to be aware of such good deeds before this pre-independence generation ceases to exist. What people continue to remember is the dark side of partition but they should also be made aware of heroic deeds of people who went a long way in saving others irrespective of their religion.
Regarding history of this sub-continent historians from both sides can put there heads together and rewrite history books which represent facts without being biased. This would be a tall order and requires patience and commitment. When France and Germany can come to such an understanding and teach common history in their schools why can't we.
regards
DS Pathania
PS
Is it possible to stop those posts which contain offensive words from appearing in this forum ? Any IT expert ??
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
There is a lot of misunderstanding between muslims and hindus. A lot of these can be resolved by interaction between the communities. Indian muslims need to make more of an effort to join the mainstream indian public, otherwise they will always remain a fringe without any power or influence. Muslims are the biggest minority in India and a force to be reckon with if only they can organise themselves and better themselves.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
MKF-You have stated that Pakistan has no intention of separating Islam from state...does that imply that Non-Muslims will not be provided equal opportunities ?? under which law they would continue to be governed even if you are able to keep obscurantists at bay ?
Pathania, Islam is a bit different from other religions. It is not only a set of beliefs, rather a code of conduct for life. It actually means submission. So you have to submit your will to what have been ordained to you. This means few laws in Islamic state shall stay. Rest is like majority decision. Can you point out what laws in Pakistan work against the minority. If you cite blasphemy law, i admit but if a majority can decide anti-semitism law in Germany, why cannot we have a blasphemy law? However we have to take care in its exercise. I would suggest that till our legal & police system is not mature enough to be free from corruption we should suspend this law.
It would require complete books to understand what is the role of Islam in state, however it is not like what was the role of church in state. It is like that few laws are to be implemented and that's all. No role of any clergy whatsoever.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
So Islam preaches fatalism ?..i.e. whatever happens to a person was pre-ordained ? Is that right ?
This means few laws in Islamic state shall stay.
Triple Talaq..will it ? ...why is it justifiable ? A person in a fit of rage can utter any crap including triple talaq. Today he can send an SMS or an MMS. Is it defined by hardliners and forced on people or even educated muslims tow this line ? Don't you think it puts women in disadvantageous position although we talk about very high respect for women in our society..but have remained a male dominated society for so many centuries?
Blasphemy Law...In my opinion God doesn't feel upset if somebody makes an insulting remark, if so, then he doesn't deserve to be a God. And who decides that God was really upset when somebody made an insulting remark?
Lotus knows how to grow in mud and muck.
Muslim poet Rahim when he wrote....... "Je Rahim uttam prakriti ka, ka kari sakat kusang ? Chandan vish vyapat nahin lapte rahat bhujang." Good nature doesn't get altered even in the company of bad. Sandal doesn't get poisoned even though snakes are coiling around the tree......conveyed the same meaning.
A few days back I read in Dawn that a Christian who embraced Islam was berated by his neighbour. This was followed by his arrest, booking under blasphemy law and a possible death sentence awaits him..Don't you think it is ridiculous? Don't you think legal lynching is barbaric...God respects life.. who are we to take it ?. Capital punishment has miserably failed to act as a deterrant against any kind of wrong doing.
Remember a Muslim from Afghanistan (about a year ago) who embraced Christianity and knives were out for him. Do Christians or others take knives out if a person embraces Islam ? I know several tribals in India under the lure of money have embraced Christianity. Nobody is hunting them. (Killing of Australian Missionary Graham Staines was an isolated incident supported by hardliners)
Why does Islam support such an anomaly of one way traffic ? 'In' is Ok but 'Out' means get out of this world.
Honour Killings - Why are these still being practiced ? A women gets raped and she is treated as culprit...why this double whammy on a poor soul?.
Above all she has to produce four male witnesses..who probably 'witnessed' the fifth one in ruining her modesty...but remained only 'mute spectators' ??
Rest is like majority decision. Can you point out what laws in Pakistan work against the minority.
Blasphemy of course and discriminatory policies against minorities.
Minorities like Christians, Hindus, Parsis, Qadians, Ahmediyas, Mohajirs et al don't get equal opportunities. Handful Jewish community remains in hiding while they have ceased to exist in Peshawar.
*If you cite blasphemy law, i admit but if a majority can decide anti-semitism law in Germany, why cannot we have a blasphemy law? *
Well, is that a justification for having blasphemy law because someone else is having or was having anti-semitic mindset ?. Germany in my opinion no longer exercises state sponsored anti-semitism but today this term seem to have acquired global dimensions and some states like Iran and likes of it are openly advocating it..like.."The World Without Zionism"..what message President Ahmednijad is conveying to about 20,000 Jews living in Tehran?.
To me it appears to be an, an-eye-for-an-eye-attitude and communities tripping over each other to acquire it.
However we have to take care in its exercise. I would suggest that till our legal & police system is not mature enough to be free from corruption we should suspend this law.
It would require complete books to understand what is the role of Islam in state, however it is not like what was the role of church in state. It is like that few laws are to be implemented and that's all.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Reply to #67 by DSPathania:
[So Islam preaches fatalism ?]
Free Will is not a scientific concept anymore. Now the scientists believe in predeterminism or scientific determinism. This doesn't means that the god ordained certain things to happen such and such way but simply that at a micro-molecular level every cause has a same effect. And we can predict the outcome if we know each and every cause accurately.
[Triple Talaq..will it ? ...why is it justifiable ?]
Triple Talaq is not justifiable. Ayub Khan passed a series of laws in 1962, according to which 120 days are required for divorce to be effective. Recently Protection of Women's Act 2006 is passed by the parliament and there are some other such laws in the offing. The requirement of four witnesses is no longer a requirement to prove rape under the abovementioned Act. Honor killings is more of a social attitude the government is passing laws against it and the mindset needs to be changed. Hopefully condition and rights of women will improve a lot if Musharraf stays in power after the 2007 elections.
Blasphemy laws though exist in theory but are rarely invoked in Pakistan. You can find some isolated cases but generally the condition of the minorities are quite satisfactory in Pakistan. I agree that a lot needs to be done in this respect and hopefully it shall be done after a thumping victory of Musharraf in 2007 elections :)
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
NO fatalism, Some is choice, some is destiny. Once asked to a companion of prophet what is in my power and what is not. He said lift your leg in the air, once the questioner did, he said lift the other one, he said i cannot. The reply came that is Your power and that is not. but it is clear that one will be answerable to only something which one had choice.
Honour killing is not islam!!! as simple as that
About Hudood i suggest that you read the posts about it. Rape is not part of Hudood laws. You do not require four witness to prove rape and now our law has been ammended. That was the fault of the maulvlies.
Triple Talaq is not supported by Quran and Quran ordains a period of 120 days for the divorce to get effective and let the peopl ethink again and again. If some sect believes triple talaq that is their belief. Quran is very clear.
Blasphemy is actually a very debated topic and no body is very sure as it is really islamic or innovation. Actually blasphemy is not about GOD (i Think) it is about prophet and that too by Muslims (I believe). For Non Muslims i think so many people said so much to the prophet in his life and he never took revenge and stopped every one from taking any revenge. As i said before it is better to be suspended.
Muhajirs are not a minority please & there are no equal oppurtunity problems to them. our president is a muhajir.
Problems of minorities are similar i think in India and Pakistan and that was never the case in past. even in Mughal rules they had so many Hindu courtiers and so many examples. We need to get better on this and this is no islamic law that minorities have to be treated differently.
yes, separating mullah from state will always be a challenge. Let's hope that we achieve it.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Honour killing is not islam!!! as simple as that
About Hudood i suggest that you read the posts about it. Rape is not part of Hudood laws. You do not require four witness to prove rape and now our law has been ammended. That was the fault of the maulvlies.
Triple Talaq is not supported by Quran and Quran ordains a period of 120 days for the divorce to get effective and let the peopl ethink again and again. If some sect believes triple talaq that is their belief. Quran is very clear.
Blasphemy is actually a very debated topic and no body is very sure as it is really islamic or innovation. Actually blasphemy is not about GOD (i Think) it is about prophet and that too by Muslims (I believe). For Non Muslims i think so many people said so much to the prophet in his life and he never took revenge and stopped every one from taking any revenge. As i said before it is better to be suspended.
Muhajirs are not a minority please & there are no equal oppurtunity problems to them. our president is a muhajir.
Problems of minorities are similar i think in India and Pakistan and that was never the case in past. even in Mughal rules they had so many Hindu courtiers and so many examples. We need to get better on this and this is no islamic law that minorities have to be treated differently.
yes, separating mullah from state will always be a challenge. Let's hope that we achieve it.
Low caste Hindu woman paraded nude for stealing fruit in Indian town
Hundreds of millions of low caste Hindu’s aka Dalits suffer this kind of daily humiliation in India.
**Dalit woman paraded nude for stealing fruit **
A middle-aged Dalit woman was tonsured and paraded half-naked in Bihar on the orders of the husband of a woman village head for allegedly stealing a few bananas. Basra Devi, in her mid 50s, of Balua Basanta village in Vaishali district was meted out the “punishment” on Saturday. “I was forcibly tonsured and paraded half-naked in the village by the people despite pleading that I was innocent,” Besra Devi said. According to villagers, after she refused to pay a fine her head was shaved. “How can I pay a fine when I don’t have enough to eat?” she said. Satyanarayan Chaurasia, the landowner husband of the village woman head, has denied torturing and humiliating Besra Devi. “I have nothing to do with it,” he said. But villagers say it was done on his orders. **A few days ago, some landowners chopped off the fingers of a 10-year-old Dalit girl, Khusbu, for plucking a few leaves of spinach from a vegetable field in a village in Bhagalpur district. **
Re: Low caste Hindu woman paraded nude for stealing fruit in Indian town
A few Dalits are appointed to titular positions, but hundreds of millions still continue to receive this kind of horrid treatment.
Poor, hungry girl pays bloody price in India
A hungry 10-year-old girl from India’s lowest Hindu caste had all the fingers of her right hand chopped off by an upper-caste landowner for taking a few spinach leaves from his field, the Hindustan Times reported on Monday. The attack took place in a village in Bhagalpur district last week in impoverished Bihar state in the east where caste prejudice against Dalits - formerly called “untouchables” - is widespread and sometimes results in violence against them. Police in Bhagalpur in eastern Bihar said they would soon arrest the upper-caste landowner who used a sickle to wound the girl whose name was given as “Khushboo”. “We will get results. This is terrible,” Superintendent of Police JS Gangwar was quoted as saying in the newspaper. ‘She just strayed to the landlord’s field and plucked a few leaves’
Khushboo’s father said that he and his wife - both labourers - had nothing to eat in their house so they sent their daughter to collect herbs that grew along a railway line. “She just strayed (to the landlord’s field) and plucked a few leaves,” Sukho Ram was quoted as saying. Dalits make up around 16 percent of India’s 1,1-billion population and still face discrimination in rural areas from higher castes and sometimes are victims of rape and murder. They are not allowed to enter some Hindu temples. But Dalits have also held high office. India’s first Dalit president KR Narayanan held office from 1997 to 2002. Last week, law ministry officials said Justice KG Balakrishnan would become the first Dalit chief justice of India’s powerful Supreme Court in January next year. Affirmative action in colleges, universities and in government jobs has benefitted a small section of Dalits. But many work as labourers, sweepers and toilet cleaners.
Re: Low caste Hindu woman paraded nude for stealing fruit in Indian town
Good that pakistan was created as these are the proofs. eventually it has to come to this conclusion that india is not secular.
If you have anything to tell about the topic, then tell:smilestar: …and You guys didn’t know that casteism exists still now? that too in a state like bihar.
BTW, such casteist assholes should be dealt properly.
Re: Low caste Hindu woman paraded nude for stealing fruit in Indian town
I'm not speaking about you alone.
I definitely dont find the word "secular" fashionable nowadays!....even you guys wanted islamic, secular or what ever it is i dont know. have you been able to achieve to do that?......no.
that too in a state like bihar.