Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Nauman72: Did you not read my message regarding Palestine/Israel/Arab conflict? Do not proceed further in that direction.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Hi All,
I am a new member in this forum and from India.
I think enough has been said about mistreatment of Muslims in India or elsewhere. I would through some light on issue. I have watched Muslims in India from close quarters, studied with them and also have some of my colleagues as Muslims.
First of all we must understand that majority of Muslims in Indian subcontinent (Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) are converts who were originally Hindus or belonged to other faiths. Some of you who doubt this statement may check your family trees.Why they are backward….there are several reasons for that. The affluent Muslims left for Pakistan when it was created and what was left behind was a quite a large chunk of poor Muslims scattered across the country. (*It was really a stupidity that country was divided along the religious lines). *
Majority of them fall prey to vote bank politics and that’s because of their inability to see reason and logic. Politicians like Mulayam Singh Yadav portray themselves as messiahs of Muslim community but they do more harm than helping them out of the mess they are in. It is a very simple mechanism..bribe the bearded Imams in Delhi or Lucknow..who would issue a fatwa that Muslims should vote for so and so political party and there they go in droves to caste their vote. Reason and logic thrown to winds. Politicians always like to catch illiterate voters for their survival irrespective whether they are Hindus or Muslims. If illiterates are good then illiterate Muslims are much better because of herd mentality. Most of them think that politicians are doing a great favour to them by providing Haj subsidy…but it is nothing but vote bank politics.
Leadership crisis…there is not even one Muslim leader in India who can really guide them and teach them how they can peacefully coexist with other communities. Result…continued manipulation by politicians as I stated earlier. And the Muslims who have made a mark in the Indian society wouldn’t catch the fancy of illiterates.Instead of sending their children to a good school, they would send them to a madrasa, where another illiterate fellow will bring them up on hate material. Process continues from one generation to the other. (Don’t tell me that poor people don’t know how to study. We have several cases in India where wretched poor students have made their way into premier engineering colleges or other fields. One needs a strong will power and there is no shortage of people who are willing to help!)
Concept of a small family is alien to most of them. Most of them don’t realize that a small manageable family is very important to have a good standard of living. Aspiring to grow bigger and bigger doesn’t bring prosperity but misery. It is a malaise amongst Hindus also but is much more pronounced amongst Muslims.
Regarding mistreatment of Muslims in India, it is not true. We have several distinguished Muslims in various fields. Science, Police, Bureaucray, Management you name the field and you will find them in. Cases of discrimination on the basis of caste and religion are very rare in India and cannot be used as a generalization.
Our president is a Muslim..you guys know that. He is such a nice person that I would rate him above any religion. It is not for the first time that India had a Muslim president we have had Muslim presidents in past as well!!
We have had several great Muslims personalities such as Ustad Bismillah Khan, Kabir, Rahim and have great musicians/film directors/Actors..Naushad, Khayyam, Kamal Amrohi, Shaban Azmi, Naseeruddin Shah and many cricketers, and Tennis Star Sania Mirza amongst others. Do you think they would have excelled if they were mistreated or marginalized ?
There are several other minority communities in India like Parsis, Christians, Buddhists in India. Parsis are only handful 45000 and have contributed a great to the nation. Two highly respectable business houses Tatas and Godrej are owned by them. I don’t think anybody would ever point an accusing finger towards them.
Christians have contributed by way of setting up schools, colleges, hospitals, old age home across the length and breadth of the country. My daughter studies in a school run by missionaries!!
When Pope John Paul II and recently Pope Benedict XVI made some statements about conversions of poor people…some people in India did protest…there is no denying.
There are tens of Pakistani children who have been treated in Indian hospitals successfully and in many cases at subsidized rates ? Does your press or even this blog ever report such acts of good lifemanship ? Indian press does that.
Now please answer my questions by being objective and detached from religious sentiments ?
How does Pakistan treat its minorities e.g. Christians and Hindus ? Incidents of kidnapping, raping and forced conversions of Hindu girls are quite common in Pakistan. Is that the way to treat a minority community which chose to remain in Pakistan after partition ? Have you ever heard Hindu men in India kidnapping, raping muslim women and converting them to Hinduism??
Why is that a temple in Lahore was recently converted into a cow slaughterhouse and administration remained a mute spectator ? What do you get by hurting the sentiments of people belonging to minority community ? (Here I would say that Babari Masjid demolition in India was a wrong act perpetrated by a bunch of hooligans including some politicians…Supreme court in India is really on their heels to bring them to book..but what happened in Pakistan afterwards..a systematic demolition of temples ordered by the state itself. Strange !!)Will a Christian or a Hindu ever become a prime minister or president or even a minister in Pakistan ?
Why did Pakistan chose to become an Islamic state instead of a secular state as was envisioned by Mr. Jinnah?
Why did Pakistan forgot it first Nobel Prize winner Dr Abdus Salam because he was an Ahmediya..a ‘Non-Muslim’? The word ‘Muslim’ was erased from the inscription on his tombstone which said “Abdus Salam The Firm Muslim Nobel Laureate.” What remained read thus “Abdus Salam The First Nobel Laureate”!! A comical outcome.Why is that every terrorist turns out to be a Muslim…everywhere and anywhere in the world?
Why do Muslims have problems in living peacefully with other communities? Whether Hindus, Jews or Christians no difference. They won’t live at peace with each other…Shias vs Sunnies ??
I think it is high time that Muslim community take a stock of the things and figure out why it is always on the wrong side of the issues all over the world. Probably Holy Quran is being interpreted in a completely distorted way.
If Muslims are in majority they won’t allow minorities to live peacefully and if they are in minority they would create nuisance for the entire society wherever they are.
Pretty hard questions…need rational thinking and for that the one should keep rigid and religious mindset in the closet.
Please enlighten me on the issues I have raised if you are able to think objectively and in a detached manner from the religion.
Regards
DS Pathania
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Guys, I would like to ask that do Pakistanis do not invest in banks or any other investment which gives interest, because this practice is followed by Indian Muslims.
Now Muslims to cheer bull run
Meghdoot Sharon CNN-IBN Posted Sunday , December 03, 2006 at 17:05
Ahmedabad: While Islamic law does not allow Muslims to make investments that bring in income through interest, there are ways to earn money from the stock market without violating religious tenets.
Meet Mohammed Salim Memon, an advocate by profession has come all the way from Himmatnagar to Ahmedabad. The reason – he wants to know how he can earn money from the stock market and still not violate laws of the Shariah.
And like Memon, there are several others who want to know what they should do to make money dabbling in stocks.
“In Islam, money earned through interest is ‘haraam’, and not permitted. I have come here to see what these people are saying about investing in the stock market." Memon says.
For the first time Parsoli Corporation in Ahmedabad has got Islamic Shariah scholars and fund managers together to inform and help members of the Muslim community.
Parsoli Corporation Limited MD Zafar Sareshwala says, “The level of Muslims investing in stock markets or mutual funds is very low in number too and also compared to the wealth they have. But the paradox is that the easiest available option to them is the stock market."
Muslims can now put their money in investments that follow Shariah laws.
"We have looked at the filters and even with the strictest of filters, more than half of the market capitalisation of the stock market is available for the Muslim investor, “Fund Manager Anand Tandon says.
Where there’s a will there’s a way and even the clergy agrees.
Advisor to India Islamic Fund Mufti Abdul Qayyum says, “Interest is forbidden by Islam and so that is out of question. But scholars have laid down guidelines and even Dow Jones is looking to implement these."
So many more Muslims are now likely to cheer the bull run.
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/now-muslims-to-cheer-bull-run/27602-7.html
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
yah like chritins r ruling pakistan whether u like it or not in a democracy majority matters .
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
If they are trying to follow what they think is right then let them, why drag Pakistani 'muslims' into it?
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
i mean christens
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
I got that part, but your comment was not clear, are you saying Christians are ruling Pakistan?
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
no wut i mean is that christens r minority in Pakistan n with in a democracy majority counts.Christen can rule Pakistan because they r minority n majority of peoples who r muslims will always govern because there population is bigger.Muslims in India can not rule but they have to go along with the majority there
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
^ really then wonder why a sikh is ruling india. Some of the indian state had muslim chief ministers though muslims were not in majority. Next time even a muslim prime minister would be possibility if BJP plays their cards well.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Captain1 my intention was not to 'drag' Pakistanis into it. It was a genuine inquiry (I have heard about Islamic banks in the middle-east and Pakistan earlier).
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Reply to #43 by Abhiman:
[Guys, I would like to ask that do Pakistanis do not invest in banks or any other investment which gives interest, because this practice is followed by Indian Muslims.]
Taking interest on loans is generally considered as a sin by most Muslims. The essence of the sin of Riba (interest) is exploitation. During the times of Muhammad, Jews used to extort huge interest from poor people who had to take loan for their basic needs.
The modern banking system is quite different. There is no exploitation involved in this system. Besides if the rate of inflation is 10% and you get 5% interest on your money in the banks, you are still losing 5% every year.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Reply to # by DS Pathania:
[Please enlighten me on the issues I have raised if you are able to think objectively and in a detached manner from the religion.]
You have raised too many issues in one message but I’ll try to answer as many as I can. First, it is not possible to be completely ‘detached’. An individual is a product of his society. You can consciously try to be as objective as you can but your sub-conscious will always limit your objectivity. If you are an objective and detached person tell me why do you want a united and strong Indian Federation? There is a thin line between nationalism and chauvinism. A strong federation is only required when the purpose of the nation-state is agg*****zement and hegemony. The real purpose of a nation-state is well being of it’s citizens. And this purpose can be better served by a loose confederate arrangement.
[The affluent Muslims left for Pakistan when it was created and what was left behind was a quite a large chunk of poor Muslims scattered across the country]
This statement is repeated ad nauseam in these forums. 59 years have passed since independence, why has the lot of those poor Muslims not improved? Do you think that in India only the rich get richer and the poor never get the chance?
It was really a stupidity that country was divided along the religious lines]
Religion in terms of culture is a major binding or dividing force. Secularism does not means that the majority should be held hostage to bigger majority. It only means that people of diverse communities should be tolerant towards each other. Examples of countries separating on religious lines: East Timor separating from Indonesia in 1999 because East Timor has a majority of Christians. Former Yugoslavia split up into Serbia (Orthodox), Bosnia (Muslims) and Croatia (Catholics). Israel and Palestine, Northern Ireland (majority Protestants) and Republic of Ireland (majority Catholics). It’s a long list and you’ll see this pattern of separation of countries on religious lines throughout the world, even in the most developed and secular countries.
**We have had several great Muslims personalities such as Ustad Bismillah Khan, Kabir, Rahim and have great musicians/film directors/Actors..Naushad, Khayyam, Kamal Amrohi, Shaban Azmi, Naseeruddin Shah and many cricketers, and Tennis Star Sania Mirza amongst others. Do you think they would have excelled if they were mistreated or marginalized ?]
President Abdul Kalam is a Muslim but India is a parliamentary democracy and the post of the president is only a symbolic and titular one without any real power. All the other names that you’ve mentioned are either from showbiz or sports. What is the percentage of Muslims in bureaucracy, military and other positions of power? I’ve read somewhere that it’s much lower than Hindus.
but what happened in Pakistan afterwards..a systematic demolition of temples ordered by the state itself. Strange !!)]
Do you really consider yourself a detached observer? What government in the world would deliberately persecute it’s minorities? You should try to separate fact from fiction and reality from propaganda.
[Why did Pakistan chose to become an Islamic state instead of a secular state as was envisioned by Mr. Jinnah?]
For all practical purposes Pakistan is a secular state. Both mainstream parties that is, People’s Party and Muslim League are secular parties. Religious parties never managed to win more than a dozen seats in any election, except in the elections of 2002, which was a reaction to the ‘war on terror’. And even now they are a minority in the parliament.
[Why is that every terrorist turns out to be a Muslim…everywhere and anywhere in the world?]
I wonder whether Tamil Tigers who invented the suicide bombing and the Irish Republican Army are Muslims? But I admit that a small fraction of a percent of Muslims resort to militancy, it’s because great injustices have been committed against them. There are three reasons:
1- Political disputes like Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya etc.
2- Poverty
3- Lack of proper education.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
well abhiman and all fellow Indians, i am sure there is more than what meets the eye in case of plight of Mulims in India. Abulkalam is liked by Indians as he says that he likes dieties which i muslim should never say, SRK is liked because he considers himself a bireligious person where his son prays to Allah and Ram both. Actuallygiving these two persons some status will not solve the problem, you have opened conditional doors for muslims.
I understand that there are some zealtos and intolerant persons here as well but believe you me here the issue is more of rich and poor rather than religion. Poor christians are exploited by rich muslims just like poor muslims are exploited. It is the religious difference which tends to get highlighted but their plight is just like other poor people of pakistan, simply pathetic. However in the middle class they have no problem, no jobs denied on basis of religion, no admissions nothing etc etc. People are too cautious to say anything which might offend them.
I do not mean to say that they do not have problems but the problems are not only for them, they are for the whole poor class.
In India the poor i understand similar treatment and exploitation, but even in middle class if you are a staunch Muslim you are not seen as doing a good thing (however we would not mind any christian being staunch on his religion or any hindu for that matter). You think like said in some post above, "renounce your religion and we will open the doors for you". By renouncing does not mean convert but to accept the dieties etc have some power as well. It reminds me that the world has not changed after even 1400 years. The same demand was put up before prophet, we will accept you as prophet and accept Allah as God if you accept that these dieties are also higher up things.
If you talk about discrimination, Muslims consider that Keeping beard is good thing and a lot of Muslims do, similarly a lot of Khalsaas consider beard a part f their religion. However in Indian army Muslims are not allowed to keep beard while Khalsaas are allowed. What is this if not discrimination?
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Pakistani Muslims have both kind of bankings, 'traditional' and Islamic, lately "Islamic" banking is booming.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Dear Nauman72,
You seem to be angry with me. No problem :). I will clarify to the best of my capabilities.
Please note that Muslims in Kerala, a state in South India are quite well of. That's because this state has 100% literacy.
The plight of Muslims is poor in Northern states like UP, Bihar, MP etc. where literacy rates are very low...and that's where the political exploitation starts..easy vote banks. These states no doubt have done little to attract investment and remain a dampner on the overall development.
There are many Muslims who have said that they don't want haj subsidy but who listens..it is political issue..vote bank politics. Give to one and other will cry..not a surprise.
It is not only Muslims, plight of many Hindus, Christians and Buddhists is also poor in many states.
There is no doubt that rich poor gap in India is widening but at the same time there are many who are climbing up the ladder of betterment of their lives. It is all because of education and has nothing to do with religion.
Without proper education things won't improve and this is one of the reasons Muslims are lagging behind.
Believe me in India there are few cases of discrimination based on religion or otherwise. (If it happens press pounces on such issues..media like NDTV have nailed many culprits irrespective of what their religion is).
All my muslims friends or classmates are doing well it is all because of education. No spoon feeding. My chief estimator is a Muslim.
You are probably aware of the fact Chief of Services was asked to furnish statistics about Muslims in defence services he refused to do that. His argument was we don't hire people on the basis of religion. It is not a propaganda but a fact. But numbers would be small because of lack of education.
Regarding muslims in army not allowed to keep beard I don't have information so I would refrain from commenting. Why beard is an issue I can't follow that ? is it because Sikhs are allowed to do that ?
There are many muslims who occupy key positions in police, bureaucracy or other institutions. I have seen many of them.
President of India is largely a ceremonial post. But Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam is basically a distinguished scientist who headed several institutions and has a humble background.
There are hardly any job opportunities left in government instituitions. So ultimately it is the private sector which provides the job opportunities. Without education people would simply miss the bus. Hindu or Muslim...doesn't matter in that case.
Please read the latest issue of The Economist if you don't agree to what I say and also spend time reading online editions of "The Hindu" for last two three days where this subject has been discussed at length. This english daily has nothing to do with Hinduism!.
You might be wondering as why all these issues continue to be discussed with a comparision of India and Pakistan...well it is very simple..we share the same history before 1947. History and geography cannot be altered..one can only draw borders. People might keep on interpreting history in their own ways.
But my dear buddy you haven't answered my question about treatment of minorities in Pakistan. When we discuss issues it should be on a holistic manner.
The information I pick-up about issues in Pakistan and have used in my posts is gleaned from Dawn and regular columns by Cowasjee, Ayaz and Irfan other sources within Pakistan. Should I associate them with yellow journalism?
I don't think I ever advocated that others should renounce their faith so they are welcome in India or elsewhere.
Imagine a world with one religion, one colour of skin, one species of living beings, one climate, one colour, one type of food..it would be so disgusting. Diversity is needed and more than that ability to co-exist and learning about each other. The moment you start saying that my faith is superior to yours...all hell breaks loose. And that's precisely the problem plaguing the society worldover.
Hope that's was appropriate to make you smile :)
regards
DS Pathania
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Maybe its beacuse,
a) the Indian muslims do not want to improve their lot
b) absense of good leaders...leadership crisis
c) the legacy of partition works to their disadvantage
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Thanks DSPathania for a conciliatory message. Sometimes in the heat of the argument I cross the line which I later regret. Our primary allegiance is to the mankind as a whole, nationalities, communities and religion comes later.
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Mahim Dargah is Bombay’s oldest dargah.
The dargah of Makhdoom Ali Mahimi (1372-1431), the secular Sufi saint, is popular as the Mahim dargah. Reported to be at least 350 years old, the dargah sharief has five domes, the only dargah in Mumbai to have more than one dome. The annual congregation, Urs, is held in December and the death anniversary of the revered pir in mid-July. Besides the tomb of his mother, the dargah also contains tombs of his maid servant and his pet goat. Devotees from different communities visit this holy place.
**Incidently Mahimi is the reciding diety of the Mumbai Police **
Re: Indian Muslims are the most disadvantage group in India
Abhiman, you are right in this sense that probably lask of education is an over riding player, but you did not answer my query for renouncing the faith, and being welcomed.
The issue of beard in Army was that if no differentiation is on the basis of religion than why sikhs are allowed beard and muslims not (many muslims consider beard a religious duty, like many sikhs)? It is a simple example nothing else.
I do not say that minorities are very well in Pakistan, but their plight is similar to the rest of the poor communities, Which is nothing to be proud about as a Pakistani, indeed it is a matter of shame. However the point i was putting across was that in the middle or elite class, a christian can say himself a staunch christian and just keep his mouth closed about Islam can live a very prosperous life. However i see that in India mostly those muslims are praised by the media who openly say that they like this diety etc etc like i mentioned before. A staunch Muslim is a bad thing in eyes of India while a staunch christian or a hindu is nothing bad in Pakistan.