Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
Doesn't Spock call them Mirasi w/o any fear of reprisals from any moderators for long you know for the "party" we are 'talkin about? :D
I don't think "Mirasi" would be fit on any particular party, I am resisting spewing it out :D
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
i know you are passionate about this issue but advocating the sri lankan approach to the tamil insurgency is simply insane. sri lanka defeated the LTTE only after finally deciding to employ genocide as a military strategy and after deciding it was comfortable with a permanent post-war apartheid.
the indian army's response to the sikh insurgency was extremely ruthless but i don't think that is the reason for its success. it was successful because the movement lacked deep-rooted popular support. if there was such support, army operations would have only inflamed the conflict.
the level of local popular support for the militant/terrorist representatives of an insurgency is what determines whether increased military aggression will be successful or backfire. in the case of sri lanka where popular support amongst tamils was universal, the only military solution was to destroy the entire ethnic group completely and not look back. i don't know where the TTP and its affiliates fall on the popular support spectrum in the NWFP but it's important to figure that out first.
not sure what is so insane..
taliban are way more brutal than tamil fighters and sikh fighters...last i remember, bhanadarwala gang never attacked women or kids.....taliban have been killing innocent kids and women for years with no remorse whatsoever....plus they are challenging the state writ in every possible way... so the use of brutal force against them is by all means justifiable...
plus dont forget that the tamil movement was way more organized and widespread both financially and organizationally than taliban movement in pakistan...if srilankan govt had to do genocide, so be it....western govts are yelling now but they did nothing when tamil fighters were killing innocents for over 25 years and when tamils who were based in these western countries were sending millions to these tamil terrorists...sri lankan govt begged the western governments for years to ban this transfer of money but nothing happened ... what was sri lankan govt supposed to do? keep negotiating?
plus guess what....in taliban case every country will actually support pakistan if it takes miliatay action including india and USA...you see what i am trying to say?
and if indian army was brutal against sikhs, so be it....it solved the problem...didnt it? plus sir jee, sikh movement had a lot of support in villages and among poor sikh masses as well as among north American and European based Canadians
now on to your question .... how strong is taliban support among masses? you dont know the local politics, so let me give you more details...now you will be surprised to know that they dont enjoy much support among common masses where these animals are based...from waziristan to peshawar, taliban have very little support...they are ruling those areas by fear and by brutal use of force...ironically taliban has more support (kind of passive support) among punjabi masses but no one in punjab will stand up for these animals if a military action takes place...when pakistan army conducted swat operation, almost whole country was relieved.
That is why role of Imran Khan is very critical...he enjoys huge support among punjabi and paathan masses and when he takes a soft position towards taliban, it divdes/confuses masses...
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
hard to understand what Imran wants…he is blaming army and govt for alienating taliban…
in any case, Imran has taken a stand and he is consistent…he is not going to change his stand…mark my word…he will be zero or hero based on this issue…only history will tell where he ends up! i actually love this man but completely disagree with his approach on this issue…
PTI chief urges govt to allow opening of Pakistani Taliban office - DAWN.COM
[PTI chief urges govt to allow opening of Pakistani Taliban office](http://dawn.com/news/1045342/pti-chief-urges-govt-to-allow-opening-of-pakistani-taliban-office) [DAWN.COM](http://dawn.com/authors/202/dawncom)
PTI chairman Imran Khan speaking to media representatives after visiting injured persons of the Peshawar church bombing at the Lady Reading Hospital. — Online photo
](http://dawn.com/news/1045342/pti-chief-urges-govt-to-allow-opening-of-pakistani-taliban-office#gallery) ](http://dawn.com/news/1045342/pti-chief-urges-govt-to-allow-opening-of-pakistani-taliban-office#gallery)
Updated 2013-09-25 18:50:31
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PESHAWAR: Pakistan Tehrik-i-Insaaf (PTI) chairman Imran Khan on Wednesday urged the government to declare a ceasefire if it was serious about holding peace talks with militants in Pakistan.
The PTI chief also called on the government to allow militants to open an office in Pakistan similar to the Afghan Taliban office in Qatar to facilitate the dialogue process, DawnNews reported.
Speaking to media representatives after visiting injured persons of the Peshawar church bombing at the Lady Reading Hospital, Khan said that on one hand, there were talks of holding negotiations whereas on the other, war was still ongoing. How would it be possible to hold peace talks, he questioned.
The PTI chairman moreover said that after the fourth All Parties Conference (APC), it was decided to hold peace talks; however no solutions had come about.
Khan stressed that the government should take negotiations seriously, adding that it should declare a ceasefire.
Furthermore, he also said that the government should allow militants to establish a political office in Pakistan to hold peace talks in the absence of which negotiations would not be possible and the decade-long war against terrorism would continue.
While discussing the Peshawar church bombing which killed 81 people, Khan alleged that the tragedy had been politicised. He said 170 blasts had taken place in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in the past nine years under previous governments, but PTI had not politicised those tragedies.
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
Should we be talking of Imran's toxic narrative or the State's toxic narrative which it has built painstakingly during the past 35 years?
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
The way Imran Khan is going about the terrorism issue he can lose support of the minorities, Shias and overseas Pakistanis.
He should press his case but trying to differentiate between Afghan taleban and TTP (good and bad taleban), pro peace Wali ur Rahman and now allowing them to open an office not only creates confusions but on the other hand brings him in the eye of the storm.
Due to his statements all attacks of the media are against him. No one is discussing the free fall of the economy (dollar is trading at 109 rupees at the moment), record hike in electricity and fuel prices etc and what the actual achievements of the army have been during the past decade.
We may like it or hate it but the mandate PMLN and PTI have got is for peace. The people of KPK and FATA are fed up with war. We may we think of it to be necessary for bringing peace there but the (most of them) people do not want it now.
Partly to blame is the double game Pakistan army has been playing during the past decade. In Srilanka, LTTE were the enemies every one knew that. Even then they tried to negotiate with them. In Pakistan we have got good taleban and bad ones, and sometimes the good ones also turn their guns on us. In all of this the people of KPK and FATA are just the cannon fodder.
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
We can also say that even the recent attack carried out by Jundullah (LEJ's allies) are the good taleban, as they only attack Shias, foreigners and minorities. Neither the army attacks them nor they attack the army.
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
how did israel solve terrorism and bombing problem?
number one point…Israeli maasses, army, politicians, media everyone was united!
and we?
Yasir Pirzadah- zara hat ke- hamaray dehshatgard hamaray bachay - Jang Columns
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
spot on ayaz!
Bankruptcy of the mental kind - Ayaz Amir
Bankruptcy of the mental kind
Islamabad diary
[Ayaz Amir](http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintWriterName.aspx?ID=9&URL=Ayaz%20Amir) Tuesday, September 24, 2013
From Print Edition
702 383 238 15
http://images.thenews.com.pk/24-09-2013/Opinion/9-24-2013_204050_l_akb.jpg
“Such incidents are not conducive to peace talks…”, PM Sharif. Some revelation this…if the death toll in the Peshawar church attack had been somewhat lower, would that have facilitated peace talks?
The government had opted for a difficult choice of holding talks with the militants…in the greater national interest. “War was an easy option….”, Interior Minister Nisar after the church attack.
The church attacks were perpetrated to sabotage peace talks with the Taliban…Imran Khan. So probably the suicide bombers came from India or another planet.
Our sins are many but such flashes of insight, what have the people of Pakistan done to deserve them?
And this is our leadership, our war leadership, which is supposed to steer us out of this mess. And the army command is distracted by other things. The chief is on his way out. What laurels he has earned he has earned. Between now and his departure we can only mark time.
I keep mentioning the mass commercialism, the love of real estate, which is now part of the mindset of higher ranks in the army. I don’t want to sound boring but, for the life of me, I find it hard to understand how such a mindset can face up to the challenge of Islamic militancy.
From Gen Zia onwards the army command itself fostered this militancy. Reversing the old ways requires a change of thinking, a mental makeover. Titans of real estate delivering a Kemalist revolution…sounds a bit unlikely.
And the prime minister’s heart is in other things: crony capitalism, concessions to the business class (a raft of tax concessions announced on the day of the Peshawar blasts) and, hard though it is to believe this, tunnels under the Margalla Hills, to create another Islamabad on the other side.
Fighting Salafi militancy, Deobandi extremism, is not easy. Granted. Their roots now run deep in our society. But our redeemers can’t even get the words right. Even after the Peshawar church attack they spoke in riddles – this was a conspiracy against Pakistan, Islam didn’t allow for such things, etc. A straightforward denunciation of the Taliban, the resolve to give terrorism no quarter, would just not come out of them.
We used to say that the holy fathers spoke with twisted tongues, hemming and hawing and not coming straight to the point. Our present messiahs, the PML-N or the PTI, Nawaz Sharif’s people or Imran Khan’s, are leaving the holy fathers behind. Are they scared or just being too clever?
This is all we have, and an army command which has made a virtue of procrastination, talking tough but taking decisions very, very slowly. When of a mind to act – say, when shaping a national response to the Kerry-Lugar bill or whipping up a storm of indignation over the Memogate affair (remember that tamasha?) – it needs neither cue nor permission from anywhere. When it comes to the threat posed by Islamic radicalism the army command becomes a stickler for constitutional propriety – the political leadership must show the way.
And the political landscape is denuded of all meaningful opposition, the PPP under Zardari having virtually self-destructed, especially in the national powerhouse of Punjab. So apart from the thrill of the PTI, we just have the brilliance of the Sharifs and then nothing, a desert emptier than the Sahara.
In all our dictatorships, from Ayub onwards, there was at least the illusion of hope…that dictatorship’s night would be succeeded by the light of morning, that Pakistan was destined to emerge from its sorrows towards a better tomorrow. For the first time the emptiness of the political landscape is so complete – Punjab dominant not only politically but intellectually, a scary thought…the Sharifs complemented by Imran Khan. If we are taking such pains to block our minds, no need for India to block our waters.
The poverty of the national narrative regarding terrorism and Islamic militancy is thus no accident. With such political intellectuals that Punjab has thrown up, we could only have had the All-Parties Conference we did, and no other. All students of politics should carefully study the resolution passed by that august gathering. Juvenile, badly drafted, full of clichés….to read it is to despair outright of the national condition. If this is the best our collective leadership can produce, can we get anything right?
Why then should the Taliban relent, or ease their terms, or become more reasonable? Looking at Nawaz Sharif’s confused expression (and he usually has one these days), listening to Imran Khan’s muddled talk, taking one look at the charismatic presence of the KPK chief minister (did ever a political man wear such a sorry expression?), they would be fools not to put more psychological pressure on this befuddled lot.
In any other country, after the roadside bomb which killed Maj-Gen Sanaullah Niazi, after the outrage of the Peshawar church attack, the cry would have gone up, enough is enough. Not here where our political leaders are going round in circles, displaying more patience than an ox with blinders on turning a Persian wheel.
But as long as terrorism doesn’t come to Punjab, ‘Delhi hanooz door ast’. Punjab therefore is right to have its head in the sand. From Lahore, Waziristan and even Peshawar look very far away…different territories, distant problems. Balochistan, lip-service apart, is already off the national radar. The atmosphere couldn’t be more right for Punjabi isolationism to thrive.
That is why a national narrative on Islamic radicalism is proving so hard to put together. We are ducking behind excuses because our hearts are not in this fight. We do not feel engaged. Our interests don’t seem threatened and, in any event, the well-heeled classes know how to look after themselves. When Islamic radicalism comes closer home, when Nadir Shah’s ravaging army on the march comes closer to Delhi, then we shall see.
Meanwhile, marvel at our ingenuity: asking Turkey to help us improve our police force and reform our taxation services, this on top of managing solid waste and reviving urban transport. China will help us do other things. Why stop at half-measures? Why not go the whole distance and outsource the nation? That seems logical, of a piece with our current approach to problem-solving. And we can then perhaps put our nukes in a museum…if the Taliban promise not to take them away.
But most pressing national question: how to outsource the Taliban problem? Clearly, we can’t handle it on our own.
Tailpiece: And Jahangir A Khan is gone – bureaucrat, journalist and small-time film personality. In Chun vey, Noor Jahan sings ‘mundiya Sialkotia’ to him. He was my pathway to journalism. Sometime in the autumn of 1978 when I walked up to the Muslim office in Aabpara – he was managing editor – I found him holding court on the editorial floor, legs slightly apart, arms in a heroic pose, somewhat like Mussolini addressing a crowd. I mumbled a few words and, turning his head towards me, he uttered the one word, “Taken”. That was it. May Madam sing to him again the same song in the everlasting shades.
Email: [email protected]
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
Which war? 
Is there an operation going on in any of the FATA areas? or KPK? Why is he forgetting the war from TTP on Pakistan i.e. Maj Gen killed as well as they vowed to continue attacks?
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
On this issue I am with IK 
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
From the article that PD posted above:
**"I keep mentioning the mass commercialism, the love of real estate, which is now part of the mindset of higher ranks in the army. I don’t want to sound boring but, for the life of me, I find it hard to understand how such a mindset can face up to the challenge of Islamic militancy.
From Gen Zia onwards the army command itself fostered this militancy. Reversing the old ways requires a change of thinking, a mental makeover. Titans of real estate delivering a Kemalist revolution…sounds a bit unlikely.
And the prime minister’s heart is in other things: crony capitalism, concessions to the business class (a raft of tax concessions announced on the day of the Peshawar blasts) and, hard though it is to believe this, tunnels under the Margalla Hills, to create another Islamabad on the other side.
**
Fighting Salafi militancy, Deobandi extremism, is not easy. Granted. Their roots now run deep in our society. But our redeemers can’t even get the words right. Even after the Peshawar church attack they spoke in riddles – this was a conspiracy against Pakistan, Islam didn’t allow for such things, etc. A straightforward denunciation of the Taliban, the resolve to give terrorism no quarter, would just not come out of them.
We used to say that the holy fathers spoke with twisted tongues, hemming and hawing and not coming straight to the point. Our present messiahs, the PML-N or the PTI, Nawaz Sharif’s people or Imran Khan’s, are leaving the holy fathers behind. Are they scared or just being too clever?"
"In any other country, after the roadside bomb which killed Maj-Gen Sanaullah Niazi, after the outrage of the Peshawar church attack, the cry would have gone up, enough is enough. Not here where our political leaders are going round in circles, displaying more patience than an ox with blinders on turning a Persian wheel.
But as long as terrorism doesn’t come to Punjab, ‘Delhi hanooz door ast’. Punjab therefore is right to have its head in the sand. From Lahore, Waziristan and even Peshawar look very far away…different territories, distant problems. Balochistan, lip-service apart, is already off the national radar. The atmosphere couldn’t be more right for Punjabi isolationism to thrive.
That is why a national narrative on Islamic radicalism is proving so hard to put together. We are ducking behind excuses because our hearts are not in this fight. We do not feel engaged. Our interests don’t seem threatened and, in any event, the well-heeled classes know how to look after themselves. When Islamic radicalism comes closer home, when Nadir Shah’s ravaging army on the march comes closer to Delhi, then we shall see."
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
Giving in to Taliban is like giving in to an ideology of hate that will burn our nation to ashes. This ideology will continue to cause violence no matter if its a war or not as it has been doing so for years. We have only begun to notice the danger of their mindset when these people got guns and bombs, but the fact is that this ideology has been present in Pakistan for years in the form of howling and growling mullahs found in mosques and protesting on streets all the time throughout the history of Pakistan.
They are the ones who were against creation of Pakistan, they are the ones who fought CIA funded jihad. What were they doing before they started armed jihad? Does anyone remembers how frequently they would come out on streets with dandas and burning protests? All those sectarian killings and mistreatment of minorities has been going on ever since this ideology was born.
If there was any kind of wisdom in Pakistani society, we would have taken this unveiling of their ugly existence as an opportunity to cleanse our society of this menace for good but we are not wise enough to do that. Instead, all we have learned so far is to hug these people and and have sympathy for them out of fear. If they can scare us into submission with violence then it's an invitation to anyone to unleash violence on us and turn us into anything they want to.
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
This is angoor adda where good taleban (Maulvi Nazeer’s men) live.
**
Wajahat S. Khan**@WajSKhan](https://twitter.com/WajSKhan)
When they say AfPak has a porous border, they don’t even know the half if it. Angoor Adda, earlier today.
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
[quote]
'Delhi hanooz door ast'
[/quote]
Is that referring to ibrahim lodhi's lazyness in dealing with the mughal threat?
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
Appreciate all the posts
This thread and many others on this topic clearly mirror behavior of our masses ....
we had over 400 views in this thread but very few people posted any comment...may be they are sick of all this but most likely PTI supporters, who ironically do believe in a war against these animals, want to stay quiet in respect to their leader IK..typical south asain behavior...leader comes first, your own viewpoint can take a hike...same goes to PMLN supporters
we had few posters who vehemently supported talibans and called them "our own people"..appreciate their openness and honesty and this is again in line with the country situation..those who support talibans are open, direct and passionate..those who oppose them are confused, quiet and passive
it is very very clear from several threads that pretty much all the posters believe that
1) our army is confused (good taliban and bad taliban..they still want to use some talibans against india)
2)our politicians are confused (IK and PMLN biggest culprits but IK still the biggest culprit because he is the single most popular leader and a courageous one plus if he opposes talibans i guarantee that PMLN will fall inline immediately)
3) our masses are completely confused (majority have sympathies for talibans because of utmost hatred for USA and they completely believe in theories that USA and India are behind these attacks on pakistani masses)
the situation is completely hopeless and I do not see any hope whatsoever.
As Ali said above and i concur that these are some of the effects of continuous brainwashing that the state has conducted through text books and media during the past 35 years and what army did via proxy wars.
Now just sit quiet and wait until.................................
ab bolney k liye kuch reh gaya hai..
I still have faith in IK because he is a good, honest man but on the issue of TTP/Taliban and religious extremism I strongly beg to differ with him. IK needs to decide which side he wants to stand on. He can either join the oppressed or the oppressors. There is no middle ground here.
Still no excuse but perhaps he can't bring himself to condemn these tribesmen openly because he was treated so well by them in the past? I am referring to IK's extensive travels in the region post World Cup glory in 1992, also covered by BBC. IK even wrote a book titled 'The Pathan Warriors' + remember his mother hails from South Waziristan.
Re. Taliban office, *Khan sahib zara socho aap kiya keh rahe ho... *Maybe you know something that we don't! I am totally astounded by this request. This is akin to giving legitimacy to murderous, criminal TTP. There is no parallel between USA (the occupying force in Afghanistan who are now looking for a graceful exit strategy) opening Taliban office in Qatar and Pakistan doing the same.
In Pakistan's case the army is not the occupying force in FATA. It has every right to be there. It has a legitimate, federal government authorised/ mandated mission in FATA to protect us from TTP murderers and to act against miscreants and enemies who are challenging the writ of the state; who want to impose their twisted ideology on the rest of the country. I outrightly reject Taliban and their narrow-minded wahhabism or salafism. Such ideology is incompatible with life in the 21st century. You cannot really have meaningful talks with religious bigots who feel no shame in butchering innocent people, who bomb schools and places of worship, who don't even spare funeral processions (can any human-being stoop any lower than this?)
Talks only if TTP first renounce arms (wishful thinking for sure). These scumbags must stop suicide bombings and butchering of innocent civilians and soldiers. Pakistan cannot unilaterally declare ceasefire and let these nutheads roam freely in the country. Talks are bound to fail unless there is the continued threat of military action against groups who will not give up arms
Re: Imran Khan’s toxic narrative on terrorism … needs to stop … and stop right no
I like Islamabad Tonight’s Nadeem Malik (doesn’t take sides) and Javed Ch. Both very sensible anchors
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
PML-N's dilly-dallying is compounding the problem and adding to confusion
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
so now who is right? IK or AU? i see Tsunamians pushing ForMePTIIsImranKhan, a polite way to say shut-up to AU
at least on this "office opening" demand IK has lost it, some passionate IK lovers are trying to justify it with Afghan Taliban office in Qatar, comparing oranges with apples
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
Asad umar has its opinion, and its only refreshing if we can see different voices on controversial decisions taken by the party leadership. Personally I support asad umar in this case. There's no comparison between TTP and afghan taleban. Recent statements of Imran khan show the hollowness of his anti terror agenda.
Re: Imran Khan's toxic narrative on terrorism ... needs to stop ... and stop right no
I am with Asad Umar on this one but i would give Imran Khan last chance to try his best for this peace initiative. I don't think it will be successful but even if this initiative can persuade SOME groups to stop fighting and at least locals to believe that KPK government tried it's best( You don't want tribals to be on the wrong side).
