There is always a divinely chosen guide, from the day humanity came into being to the day of judgment, the end.
Can you tell me who was the Imam prior to the Prophet (saw)?
Did he meet the Prophet (saw)?
Did the Prophet (saw) ever mention him? Why such silence about the Imam prior the Prophet (saw)?
Re: Imam
Ibn Sadique, either you are deliberately being unconstructive or are blinded by your bias. Anyway, i sincerely hope you seek repentence for misquoting the book of Allah (swt), even if you do not admit it here for obvious reasons.
Let's suppose I agree with your interpretation here. As it is according to you belief that Allah Ta'ala grants Imamah to deserving people without any external interference. And the infallible Imams by their status of infallibility know that they'll become Imam eventually, in specific when the previous Imam passes away. In addition, you believe that the Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) has foretold about the 12 Imams. So why does an Imam has to make du'a to Allah Ta'ala for becoming an Imam when we know the du'a has nothing to do with Allah Ta'ala pointing him an Imam? According to your understanding, the Imam is asking for perfection and infallibility as a normal person can't do this according to your own beliefs. However, such du'a is already redundant for an already infallible and perfect person! This is all inconsistent or incompatible with your doctrine!
Dua is means to seek nearness to Allah Ta’ala and Sunnat of the representatives of Allah (swt). All finite beings, including the representatives of Allah (swt), have the inherent shortcoming of not owning anything of their own but depend on gifts bestowed to them from Allah. And thus there is a pattern of Duas in the Quran where the greatest of the Prophets of Allah (swt) are beseeching the Almighty for the blessings already promised to them. For example, according to both Shia and Sunni aqeeda, Prophets are infallible and free from sins, yet we see them asking for forgiveness in the Quran:
Hazrat Noah
[71:28] "O my Lord! Forgive me, my parents, all who enter my house in Faith, and (all) believing men and believing women: and to the wrong-doers grant Thou no increase but in perdition!"
Hazrat Ibrahim
[Yusufali 60:4] ….. when Abraham said to his father: "I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from Allah." (They prayed): "Our Lord! in Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal.
[Yusufali 60:5] "Our Lord! Make us not a (test and) trial for the Unbelievers, but forgive us, our Lord! for Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
[Yusufali 14:39] "Praise be to Allah, Who hath granted unto me in old age Isma'il and Isaac: for truly my Lord is He, the Hearer of Prayer!
[Yusufali 14:40] O my Lord! make me one who establishes regular Prayer, and also (raise such) among my offspring O our Lord! and accept Thou my Prayer.
[Yusufali 14:41] "O our Lord! cover (us) with Thy Forgiveness - me, my parents, and (all) Believers, on the Day that the Reckoning will be established!
If you keep the above context in mind then you will be able to understand the the verses 25:72-75, Insha Allah.
And where did you read that its a Shia belief that a normal person cant ask or aim for complete protection from Sins?
Before you people do this exhaustive, never ending research on Imamate, can you tell me
1- Who is the Imam now? 2- If i want to follow Imam, how can i do it? 3- How those following Imam are better than those who are not.
1- The twelfth, Imam Al Mahdi (as)
2- Start reading about them as a start (Quran, hadiths, tareekh, seerat)
3- [10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?
So its important to know who you are following.
Pathan Bhai – That’s what you think and you have got it wrong!
I’m thinking on lines of Tawheed, Prophethood, Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat, day of Judgement, Jihad and Charity etc. etc.
If you were to ask any non Muslim to through the Quran and with no idea about Islam and ask him to read it and write down 5 important articles of Islamic belief based on his understanding from Quran. abridged
If a non-muslim with a sound mind read about our Prophet, his staus in the sight of the God and then the society he lived in, his politics and reads Quran on the top with good sight then i dont think he would believe that the Prophet could leave his people in as chaotic state as propogated. Idea that Prophet left without a leader or successor is irrational, lacks common sense, and against the principles by which our Prophet ruled and the principles presented in the holy Quran.
Read Quran and understand its take on the leadership. There is no Shia Imamat or Sunni Imamat. Quran talks about only one leadership and thats Imamat of the MANKIND.
And what makes you say that the earth always has an Imam? Does the Quran or hadtih say that anywhere? please clarify this for me.
And Sadique habibi, read my answer about the Nahjul Balagha sermon again as i had edited it before you quoted me on it. Also remember that Hazrat Ali did not even call the Kharijis kaafir let alone the Syrians who were victims of Ummaya propoganda and were at large innocent of Muawiya and his trickeries.
Re: Imam
can anyone tell me what the purpose of the Thread is and what you are discussing?
^ :) that's good one!
Ibn Sadique, either you are deliberately being unconstructive or are blinded by your bias. Anyway, i sincerely hope you seek repentence for misquoting the book of Allah (swt), even if you do not admit it here for obvious reasons.
ramesha – You have right to your views and can express them as you see fit.
I really don’t mind you labelling ‘ignorant’, manipulative, unconstructive or are blinded by your bias”.
I’ll leave it the viewers here to judge. But I am not offended.
Wish you peace.
If a non-muslim with a sound mind read about our Prophet, his staus in the sight of the God and then the society he lived in, his politics and reads Quran on the top with good sight then i dont think he would believe that the Prophet could leave his people in as chaotic state as propogated. Idea that Prophet left without a leader or successor is irrational, lacks common sense, and against the principles by which our Prophet ruled and the principles presented in the holy Quran.
Pathan Bhai – You must BELIEVE that FUNDATMENTAL BELIEFS of Islam are very clear cut and obvious.
No one has to rely on Seerah of the Prophet (saw), hadith or history books to find Basics of Islamic belief.
Tawheed, Risaalat (Prophethood), Prayers. Fasting, Zakat, Hajj, Jihad, Day of Judgement etc are clear in the Quran and one does not have to refer to secondary sources to.
This is not the case for Imamate.
As you said one has to refer to secondary sources to find the ‘feasibility of Imamate’.
That too only 10% or of Muslims believe so.
Read Quran and understand its take on the leadership. There is no Shia Imamat or Sunni Imamat. Quran talks about only one leadership and thats Imamat of the MANKIND.
Pathan Bhai Shia and Sunni have completely different concept of leadership.
Mankind as a whole is khalifa (vicegerent) of Allah on the earth.
And what makes you say that the earth always has an Imam? Does the Quran or hadtih say that anywhere? please clarify this for me.
I did not say that; It is Shia belief that there has to Imam at all times.
I’m quoting AikPakistani- ask him
There is always a divinely chosen guide, from the day humanity came into being to the day of judgment, the end. Don’t confuse the divine leadership with political leadership. That being said, the divinely assigned guide of present time is Imam mehdi (as), the son of the 11th Imam.
And Sadique habibi, read my answer about the Nahjul Balagha sermon again as i had edited it before you quoted me on it. Also remember that Hazrat Ali did not even call the Kharijis kaafir let alone the Syrians who were victims of Ummaya propoganda and were at large innocent of Muawiya and his trickeries.
Brother Pathan Bhai I quoted Nahjul Balagha to show you that Hz. Ali (ra) is clearly stating that his differences with Hz. Muawiyyah (ra) is not on Belief but that Murder of Hz. Uthman (ra) was being pointed towards him.
All Sunnis believe that Hz. Ali (ra) was on the right and his opponents were on the wrong, and that includes Hz. Muawiyyah (ra).
Hz. Ali (ra) is from the rightly guided Khaleefs and from the 10 who have given the good news of being in Heaven.
Status of Hz. Muawiyyah (ra) compared to that of Hz. Ali (ra) is that of candle to Sun in it’s full glory. There is no two ways about this.
boy o boy, i was hoping you would have learned something in all these years but you seem to be going in the reverse gear.........
Pagluu It is standard practice among Muslims to put (ra) for all the companions of the Prophet (saw). Allah (swt) will judge all and each one of us. And believe you me I have indeed learned a lot.
Pathan Bhai – You must BELIEVE that FUNDATMENTAL BELIEFS of Islam are very clear cut and obvious.
No one has to rely on Seerah of the Prophet (saw), hadith or history books to find Basics of Islamic belief.
Tawheed, Risaalat (Prophethood), Prayers. Fasting, Zakat, Hajj, Jihad, Day of Judgement etc are clear in the Quran and one does not have to refer to secondary sources to.
This is not the case for Imamate.
As you said one has to refer to secondary sources to find the ‘feasibility of Imamate’.
That too only 10% or of Muslims believe so.
Pathan Bhai Shia and Sunni have completely different concept of leadership. Mankind as a whole is khalifa (vicegerent) of Allah on the earth.
I did not say that; It is Shia belief that there has to Imam at all times.
I’m quoting AikPakistani- ask him
Brother Pathan Bhai I quoted Nahjul Balagha to show you that Hz. Ali (ra) is clearly stating that his differences with Hz. Muawiyyah (ra) is not on Belief but that Murder of Hz. Uthman (ra) was being pointed towards him.
All Sunnis believe that Hz. Ali (ra) was on the right and his opponents were on the wrong, and that includes Hz. Muawiyyah (ra).
Hz. Ali (ra) is from the rightly guided Khaleefs and from the 10 who have given the good news of being in Heaven.
Status of Hz. Muawiyyah (ra) compared to that of Hz. Ali (ra) is that of candle to Sun in it’s full glory. There is no two ways about this.
.
Azizum Ibn Sadique...leadership is fundamental and there is enough evidence of it from Quran. There are many ayats mentioned in this discussion alone, what is the point on them being in the Quran then if they dont mean anything for the humanity?
And do you think Allah(swt) has promised never to let misguide the majority? Has he promised not to throw the majority in hell if they disobeyed- not that i am saying he will as its not my decision and i am not a Mullah. This is not democracy where numbers count, this is rule of Allah.....
Shia and Sunni do have different views on the leadership thats why we are discussing what we are discussing but there is only 1 view in the sight of Allah. Therefore the Book of Allah is the best judge for now.
And AIk Pakistani did not say that the earth is never without an Imam. We believe though that there is always a hujja of God on earth. At the moment we have Imam Mehdi, Hazrat Khizr and according to some people Hz Ilyas too i think!
Good to read your view on Hz Ali and i dont believe anybody was promised the Jannah in advance by Allah regardless of the fitna or deeds the commit in the future. This will challenge the absolute Justice of the Almighty.
^ :) that's good one!
ramesha – You have right to your views and can express them as you see fit.
I really don’t mind you labelling ‘ignorant’, manipulative, unconstructive or are blinded by your bias”.
I’ll leave it the viewers here to judge. But I am not offended.
Wish you peace.
Pathan Bhai – You must BELIEVE that FUNDATMENTAL BELIEFS of Islam are very clear cut and obvious.
No one has to rely on Seerah of the Prophet (saw), hadith or history books to find Basics of Islamic belief.
Tawheed, Risaalat (Prophethood), Prayers. Fasting, Zakat, Hajj, Jihad, Day of Judgement etc are clear in the Quran and one does not have to refer to secondary sources to.
This is not the case for Imamate.
As you said one has to refer to secondary sources to find the ‘feasibility of Imamate’.
That too only 10% or of Muslims believe so.
Pathan Bhai Shia and Sunni have completely different concept of leadership. Mankind as a whole is khalifa (vicegerent) of Allah on the earth.
I did not say that; It is Shia belief that there has to Imam at all times.
I’m quoting AikPakistani- ask him
Brother Pathan Bhai I quoted Nahjul Balagha to show you that Hz. Ali (ra) is clearly stating that his differences with Hz. Muawiyyah (ra) is not on Belief but that Murder of Hz. Uthman (ra) was being pointed towards him.
All Sunnis believe that Hz. Ali (ra) was on the right and his opponents were on the wrong, and that includes Hz. Muawiyyah (ra).
Hz. Ali (ra) is from the rightly guided Khaleefs and from the 10 who have given the good news of being in Heaven.
Status of Hz. Muawiyyah (ra) compared to that of Hz. Ali (ra) is that of candle to Sun in it’s full glory. There is no two ways about this.
Pagluu It is standard practice among Muslims to put (ra) for all the companions of the Prophet (saw). Allah (swt) will judge all and each one of us. And believe you me I have indeed learned a lot.
Hello there my friend Ibn Sadique. It is nice to get a response frm u after a long time.
For heavens sake bro, leave these nice ppl alone. They want to discuss Quran and u pull out Muawiya and war with the Syrians and God knows whatelse. Cant you see they a r too nice to do to you wht u r doing to them? and to top it this time u even try to abuse the Quran too......despite that u r my friend, shame on u for that. This is a new low.
BUT if u r bored and feel like playin' then i m here for ya :) i had vowed to be nice but ur continous badness like a kuttay ki dumm has prompted me to make a comeback...
Why dont u open a new thread for the ur Kings of the Kings Muawiya whom for u have a new found love for. Lets open a thread in his defence like u did before for one of your other Kings and we had a lot of fun that time. This time we will dig up his ancestory, his character and kurtoots and his legacy tht he left behind. Cool my man?
Before you people do this exhaustive, never ending research on Imamate, can you tell me
1- Who is the Imam now? 2- If i want to follow Imam, how can i do it? 3- How those following Imam are better than those who are not.
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Iconoclast, i attempted to answer the questions on the last page. Perhaps you have missed them. :)
1- The twelfth, Imam Al Mahdi (as)
2- Start reading about them as a starting point (Quran, hadiths, tareekh, seerat)
3- [10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?
So its important to know who you are following.
Useful source: al-islam.org
I have my tests starting next week so i might not be able to participate comprehensively anymore. I will most likely be reading though.
All the best
wasalam
ramesha
Azizum Ibn Sadique...leadership is fundamental and there is enough evidence of it from Quran. There are many ayats mentioned in this discussion alone, what is the point on them being in the Quran then if they dont mean anything for the humanity?
Respected brother Pathan Bhai:
Believe me brother We, (Sunnis) sincerely to want go to heaven too.
Very able and eminent scholars from the very beginning of Islam have rejected the concept of Imamate.
If you were to read the books recommended by Brother Das Reich it is clear that concept of Imamate was defined much later. And it accepted and popular among the later day Shia as we know.
We have very authentic hadith about Khilafah:
On the Authority of Hudhaifa he said that the Messenger of Allah (Salallahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “Prophethood will be with you for however long Allah wills it, then he will raise it when he wishes to raise it. Then Khilafah upon the way of the Prophet will be with you however long Allah wills it to be, then he will raise it whenever he wishes to raise it. Then there will be Long Standing kingdoms and it will be with you for however long Allah wills it to be, then he will raise it when he wishes to raise it, then there will be oppressive kingdoms and it will be with you for as long as Allah wishes it to be then it will be raised from you when he wishes, and then there will be Khilafah upon the way of the Prophet”. The he kept silent (Salallahu alaihi wa sallam). Narrated by Abu Dawuud
*Therefore, hold fast to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided Khalifas (Caliphs), hold it between your front teeth! And beware of innovations (in the religion), for every innovation is a bid'ah and every bid'ah is a deviation, and every deviation is in the Fire." *(Bukhari & Muslim)
And do you think Allah(swt) has promised never to let misguide the majority? Has he promised not to throw the majority in hell if they disobeyed- not that i am saying he will as its not my decision and i am not a Mullah. This is not democracy where numbers count, this is rule of Allah.....
Brother, it is true that Allah (swt) has stated that majority will be thrown in hell.
Here you are mistaken.
Allah (swt) has said that majority of MANKIND and NOT majority of BELIEVERS.
And Alhamdulilah you know who has always been vey overwhelming majority!!
This in no way means the Sunnis will automatically walk into heaven.
No, having the right set of beliefs helps but the good deeds (amaals) have to be there.
Shia and Sunni do have different views on the leadership thats why we are discussing what we are discussing but there is only 1 view in the sight of Allah. Therefore the Book of Allah is the best judge for now..
That’s right and the problem is in interpretation. Each one seems to be happy with what they have.
And AIk Pakistani did not say that the earth is never without an Imam. We believe though that there is always a hujja of God on earth. At the moment we have Imam Mehdi, Hazrat Khizr and according to some people Hz Ilyas too i think!
Brother Pathan Bhai read his post again. I’m quoting the bit again for your convenience.
There is always a divinely chosen guide, from the day humanity came into being to the day of judgment, the end.
Good to read your view on Hz Ali and i dont believe anybody was promised the Jannah in advance by Allah regardless of the fitna or deeds the commit in the future. This will challenge the absolute Justice of the Almighty.
Yes that’s your view as a 12er and I didn’t expect you to agree – I was just showing you what evidence we have for ourselves.
Iconoclast, i attempted to answer the questions on the last page. Perhaps you have missed them. :)
1- The twelfth, Imam Al Mahdi (as) 2- Start reading about them as a starting point (Quran, hadiths, tareekh, seerat) 3- [10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge? So its important to know who you are following.
Useful source: al-islam.org
I have my tests starting next week so i might not be able to participate comprehensively anymore. I will most likely be reading though.
All the best wasalam ramesha
Sorry if i missed yur post. But i don't see how you have answered my question.
1- How can i meet or get knowledge from present Imam.
2- I thought the purpose of having an Imam at all times was to get direct guidance. If i still have to read Quran, Hadith,Tareekh and seerat, then it can be done without Imam also.
3- Plz be specific, in how the two groups differ in terms of Islam.
dear brother Ibn Sadique- you are Masha Allah very learned and you know very well how lengthy, confusing and inconclusive are the tracks of the scholary opinions, or the science of hadiths for that matter. Quran is without a doubt the only impure source of knowledge present infront of us at the moment. I am sure you will agree with me that scholary opinions or hadiths that contradict Quran are worth nothing. One reason why i started to participate in this thread was because i saw an attempt to analyse verses of the Quran which i thought was very positive. Normally i very rarely participate as is evident from the number of posts i have made in my almost 10 years at the GS. Therefore i am willing to engage as long as you present and back your ideas, as you see them, from the holy Quran.
You said in your earlier post that according to your belief, all the mankind is the Khalifa of Allah. Does it mean even a Hindu, or an Athiest is also Khalifa of Allah?
Re: Imam
[QUOTE]
I am sure you will agree with me that scholary opinions or hadiths that contradict Quran are worth nothing. One reason why i started to participate in this thread was because i saw an attempt to analyse verses of the Quran which i thought was very positive.
[/QUOTE]
pathan bhai are you from the Quran only lobby or do you support a simplistic literalist interpretation of Quran
if thats the case whats the need for taqleed in your fiqah and the bewildering number of ayatullahs ?
pathan bhai are you from the Quran only lobby or do you support a simplistic literalist interpretation of Quran if thats the case whats the need for taqleed in your fiqah and the bewildering number of ayatullahs ?
i am sure you know as well as i know that taqleed in the matter of beliefs is Haraam.
And there are plenty of Mohkam verses in the Quran for an average mind to be able to analyse and weigh their believes.
Sorry if i missed yur post. But i don't see how you have answered my question.
1- How can i meet or get knowledge from present Imam. 2- I thought the purpose of having an Imam at all times was to get direct guidance. If i still have to read Quran, Hadith,Tareekh and seerat, then it can be done without Imam also. 3- Plz be specific, in how the two groups differ in terms of Islam.
Salaam Iconoclast,
I will pm you soon, Insha Allah. Wasalam
Re: Imam
It needs to be made clear that no one disputes to the idea that leadership is necessary. Leadership is held by Imam and it is held by Khaliph ... verily Imam and Khaliph can be the same.
The core difference in the meaning these terms hold is whether the leadership is to be continued in a royal chain or whether it is subject to a council vote.
The word Imam is not reserved for family members of the prophet Muhammad (SAW) ... according to the Qur'an to be a good Muslim we should all wish to be Imams and likewise work towards that wish.
Re: Imam
^^ Quran clearly states that leadership of mankind is in the bloodline of Prophet Abraham (AS)....
Your conclusion to the contrary is quite disingenuous - PSYAH