Brother Das Reich,
~~Allah (swt) says: "...and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)~~
Brother Das Reich,
~~Allah (swt) says: "...and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)~~
Re: Imam
" (Remember) the day when We will summon all (groups of) people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly." (17:71)
Qur’an: “The day when We shall summon all (groups of) people with their Imam.”
The day here is Judgment day and the word “Imam” is that which is referred to as a guide. In the Qur’an, Allah has used the word Imam:
1) To refer to individuals, who guide people by His command as He says: “...Lo! I have appointed thee an Imam for mankind” (2:124), and, also, He says: “And We made them Imams who guide by Our command.” (21:73)
2) To call other individuals who are followed in leading astray as He says: “…then fight the Imams of disbelief.” (9:12)
3) To refer to the Torah as He says: “When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an Imam and a mercy.” (11:17) What we can learn from this verse is that the heavenly Books that contains the shariah like the book of Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, and Mohamed (peace be upon all of them) are also regarded as Imams.
4) To refer to the Guarded Tablet as He says: “...and all things We have kept in a clear Imam” (36:12).
From the literal appearance of the verse 17:71 we can understand that each group of people will have an Imam different from other groups. Since the Guarded Tablet is one, and not specialized to one group or the other, the word Imam in this verse cannot refer to the Guarded Tablet.
The verse also indicates that the “summoning” is inclusive for all people from men of old to later generations. And it has been previously mentioned in the exegesis of the verse “Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture.” (2:213), that the first Heavenly Book that included a shariah was the book of Nuh (a.s.) and there was no other book before it. Therefore, the word “Imam” in verse 17:71 cannot refer to the Heavenly Books because whoever came before Nuh (a.s.) will not be included in the inclusive call of the verse.
Thus, “the Imam of all men,” (in the sentence “summon all people with their Imam”) means the one who is followed for either guidance or misguidance. As previously mentioned, the Qur’an calls both of them “Imams”, or sometimes explicitly refers to the Rightful Imam. The Rightful Imam is chosen by Allah in every period to guide people by His command. He can either be a prophet, like Ibrahim (a.s.) and Mohammed (s.a.w.a.), or a non-prophet. A detailed explanation has been previously mentioned in the exegesis of verse 2:124.
We can also learn from Allah’s saying about the Pharaoh, who was an “Imam” who led people astray: “He will go before his people on the Day of Resurrection and will lead them to the Fire for watering-place” (11:98). Allah also says: “That Allah may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell” (8:37), and other verses, which are numerous - that people who were led astray (misguided) will not be separate from their respective leaders (Imams) on the Judgment day and therefore, they will follow them during the Resurrection and summoning.
The word “imamihim” (their Imam) is general and it has not been specified to refer to the Imam of truth, whom Allah has chosen to guide by His command. We have seen that the one who leads people astray is also called an Imam (like the Pharaoh), so does the one (the Imam) who guides people to the right path. It can be inferred from the two verses quoted above, that the Imam, who people are summoned with, is also the one whom people take as a leader and follow in this life and not necessarily the one whom Allah has chosen to be an Imam to guide by His command, whether people follow him, or not.
It is now evident that the meaning of “Imam of all men” in the verse: “summon all men with their Imam” is the one who is followed, regardless whether he is the Imam of truth (guidance) or the Imam of error (misguidance). Also, the verse does not mean, as some people think and have said, that people will be called by the names of their Imams (leaders), like saying “O people of Ibrahim, and O people of Mohamed, and O people of Pharaoh, and O people of such and such Imam”. Such an interpretation is not suitable as a further branching from the clause “whoever is given his book in his right hand” and the verse “Whoever is blind here…” and therefore it is rejected. In other words, there is no relationship between the summoning by the name of the Imam and giving the book with the right hand, and blindness.
The meaning of “da’wa” is summoning (with someone). This meaning is qualified from the clause “whoever is given the book in the right hand”. In other words, the people will be summoned with their respective Imam whom they followed in this life and then the person who had been guided by the Rightful Imam will take the book in his right hand, and those who were blind in not knowing the Rightful Imam of their time will also be blind in the hereafter. This is what a scrupulous look at the verse would reveal.
002.124 * **YUSUFALI:* And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
007.142 * **YUSUFALI:* ............................ And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me amongst my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."
025.035 * **YUSUFALI:* (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;
002.027 * **YUSUFALI:* Those who break Allah's Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.
*Book 013, Number 4016: * Ibn Abbas reported: When Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, 'Umar b. al-Kbattab being one of them. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that. Thereupon Umar said: Verily Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Qur'an with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us. Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him And some among them said what 'Umar had (already) said. When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: Get up (and go away) 'Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them.
"I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." [Reported in Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63]
The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me"
(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700 (2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71 (3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12 (4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174 (5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16 (6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309
Excellent Post.
It has a lot to deliver to a worthy receiver.
Ok, sure. First of all it seems from your writings that you think "Imamat" is some sort of subject like Mathametics that needs to be taught to people. My understanding is that Imamat in its simplest form means leadership.
Pathan Bhai – That’s what you think and you have got it wrong!
I’m thinking on lines of Tawheed, Prophethood, Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat, day of Judgement, Jihad and Charity etc. etc.
If you were to ask any non Muslim to through the Quran and with no idea about Islam and ask him to read it and write down 5 important articles of Islamic belief based on his understanding from Quran.
You shouldn’t be surprised if he will write down important factors of Islamic Belief as follows:- oneness of God, Prophet-hood, Fasting, Hajj, the Day of Judgment, perhaps the rewards and punishments, prayer, Zakat, etc. etc.
Is there any remote chance that he writes down the doctrine of Imamate as Shia put it?
Imami Shias just rely on the word Imam in Quran and try to stretch anyhow to fit it to required Concept of Imamate much awkward it may seem. And then stubbornly insist that it is so.
All the Principle factors of belief are in the Quran and if not; than they are secondary issues.
Concept of Imamate is not there.
You people believe that the world cannot leave without an Imam and that before one Imams moves on he appoints a new. Right?
Please name the Imam immediately before the Prophet (saw)?
Did the Prophet (saw) mention him?
The Prophet (saw) did talk about the Prophets (asa) immediately before him like Jesus (as), John the Baptist (as), Moses (as, don’t you find it strange that He never ever mentioned any Imam prior to himself!!!!!!!
Right to leadership and requirements to be a leader are present in the Quran.** Ramesha **and **righteous **have presented many of them here without any response from either you or Das Reich. Why don't you 1)refute this form of leadership from Quran 2)prove an alternate model of leadership from Quran or acknowledge that Quran has not provided any guidance in the matter of leadership and remained quiet.
Ramesha **and **righteous have done nothing but dutifully push the Imami 12er line.
This has been refuted again and again. Yet doesn’t sink in. It's just like telling Ahmadis/Qadianis that no Prophet will come after the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and yet they use the Quran just to prove their point (hopelessly).
Just as Brother **Das Reich **has stated Quran has not given clear cut ruling on Leadership. It has been left ‘open’ to suit various situations.
Anyone can be a ruler and will be accounted for it in the Hereafter the way he conducts it.
Read the following ayahs where Muslims are instructed to conduct their affairs with consultations.
Surah 42. Councel, Consultation
And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them. [Shakir 42:38]
Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance; [Yusufali 42:38]
And those who answer the call of their Lord and establish worship, and whose affairs are a matter of counsel, and who spend of what We have bestowed on them, [Pickthal 42:38]
Now if i copied and pasted 10 verses or hadiths here proving Ahlay Bayt (as) to be superior to the rest of the ummat then the discussion might take a new, long turn. Instead i would ask you to tell me from Quran or Sunnat the qualities one should have to be a leader. I will prove to you from Quran and Sunnat how Ali Ibn Talib (as) was surperior to all and why right of leadership belonged to him.
No Sunni has problem with Ahlul Bayt (raa) in fact we have much more than what you believe in just the select few.
Just to wet your appetite I am quoting a few narrations from ‘your’ Imams (raa).
Go ahead and deny what the stated just because it doesn’t meet your ‘standards.’
Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) expressed his support to Abu Bakr and Umar:
Once wife of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq asked him about Abu Bakr and Umar.
He replied, "I support them”.
Then he said to his wife,” you should support them also."
His wife replied, "So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar."
The truthful Imam Jaffar replied, ” Yes."
Once, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (ra) while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful ("as-Siddiq").
One of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquired if he (the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, "Yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may Allah make that person (who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection"
Source: Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]
Heed the following narration of your Imam: "Yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may Allah make that person (who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection"
We have the following narration from Saheeh Bukhari - Obviously you will not agree to it.
Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas: When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out.'
The sermon from Nahjul Balagha above where Hazrat Ali is comparing Syrians with the rest of the Muslims and not Muawiya.
How wrong you are Pathan Bhai!!!!
Why are you interpreting the words of Imam Ali (ra) to suit your inner desires?
Hz. Muawiya (ra) was the head of Syrians. It was he who was in dispute with Imam Ali (ra).
Imam Ali (ra) was in fact saying that there no ‘religious’ dispute between him and his opponents and the only dispute between him his and Syrians (by extension Hz. Muwiyah (ra)) was using Imam’s own words “The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it”
Read the following statement of Hz. Ali (ra) very carefully: * The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion.
So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles.
The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it*. ** Nahjul Balagha Letter 58**Note:
Hz. Ali (ra) said:
He and Mu’awiyyah had common faith in Allah Faith in same Prophet Faith in same principles and Cannons of religion (Islam). And So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles.
And the only point of contention:
was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split.
Did Hz. Ali (ra) mention that he was the Imam of the time? And Mu'awiyyah wasn't agreeing to it.
Did Mu’awiyyah believe that Ali was Imam of the time?
If he didn't how can Hz. Ali say that they had the same faith and nothing was amiss.
**
righteous** - you have your right to bask in your delusions of glory.
I’m sorry that I failed to address your post.
In fact the answer to your post lies in the post of brother psyah
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6350967-post10.html
Now i’ll tackle your ‘knock out’ post
I am not stuck on 12ers concept of Imamate – it’s that you are pushing it forward exactly - what the 12ers believe in.
Regarding Hz. Ibrahim (as) refer to post of** brother psyah **– you have your answer
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6350967-post10.html
Every Muslim believes that Prophethood is divinely ordained – Imamate is belief of 10% of Muslims ONLY.
If your assumption is that Imamate in Quran means same as that of Shia version I deny it. So do 90% of Muslims
And I am not denying Word of Allah (swt) be rest assured.
Were not the Progeny of Hz. Ibrahim (as) Imams to only Bani Israel except for Prophet Muhammad (saw)?
And the Imamate you have in mind is ‘Universal Imamate’.
And this is only with Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Imam Mahdi (ra) will have it when his is around.
Anybody who is not from progeny of Hz. Ibrahin (as) can also beseech Allah to bestow leadership on them and their progeny.
Read the ayah below:
“And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion; Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honorable (avoidance); Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind; Those who say: ‘Our Lord, grant us the coolness of our eyes in our wives and children, and make us leaders (imams) of the pious.’” 25:71-74:
Dare you to deny the above ayah!!!
Ramesha **and **righteous have done nothing but dutifully push the Imami 12er line.
This has been refuted again and again. Yet doesn’t sink in. It's just like telling Ahmadis/Qadianis that no Prophet will come after the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and yet they use the Quran just to prove their point (hopelessly).
Just as Brother **Das Reich **has stated Quran has not given clear cut ruling on Leadership. It has been left ‘open’ to suit various situations.
Anyone can be a ruler and will be accounted for it in the Hereafter the way he conducts it.
Ibn-e-Sadique, anyone can be a political leader, but the religious guidance is divinely ordained and is from the bloodline of Ibrahim (as) after his prayer. The task of religious and spiritual guidance is assigned by Allah. There is always a divinely chosen guide, from the day humanity came into being to the day of judgment, the end. Don’t confuse the divine leadership with political leadership. I gave you the example of Ibrahim (as) and Namrood, Moosa (as) and Firoun earlier. An imam can be a political leader too, but first and foremost he is a religious leader.
The mistake that the political leaders of early Islamic period did was, they self-appointed themselves as divinely ordained Khalifahs. They started making changes in the Sunnat and sayings of Prophet (saw). They started giving verdicts on matters of religion. The religion suffered the worst during Umayyads, they have caused so much distortion to the message of Islam that its inconceivable. They muddled everything, caused ambiguity, and abused Islam for political victories. They made changes that were in exact opposition to the teachings of Prophet, and then they claimed that any changes to "our" innovations is Biddat (innovation).
Prophet (saw) repeatedly said there will be 12 imams from my progeny, but people have repeatedly denied it, as if Prophet saw (Nauzubillah), is a usual, ordinary man, saying things without much thought. But it’s not something new, there has always been a clash between vice and virtue, the good and evil. Every messenger and guide of Allah has faced strong opposition and bore afflictions from their people, be it Ibrahim (as), Moosa (as), Isa (as), Mohammed (saw), Ali (ra). The good thing, however, is that Eventually the Truth Prevailed.
That being said, the divinely assigned guide of present time is Imam mehdi (as), the son of the 11th Imam.
Your post makes false assumptions and refers to the post of PSYAH which in turn refers to someone’s tafseer.
This is not how you answer. You are making you argument assuming two things, one I am talking about 12er concept of Imamate (however you understand it) and the concept of Imamate by 12ers is incorrect.
Making false assumptions against your opponents in a debate and then concluding you are right is not how you do it.
Go read my post again and drop the notion of 12ers.
My argument is as follows:
I am saying Quran states that Imamat or leadership is divinely ordained and God promised it to selected ones from the progeny of Abraham (who are also not wrong doers (ZALIM))
I am glad that you have accepted the concept of Universal Imamat. There can be leaders of communities, tribes, nations etc but they have to follow the universal (divinely appointed) Imam.
I am not going to deny any Ayah of Quran. Infact I will thank you for bringing it up since it is relevant to this discussion.
Surah Furqan is the standard or criterion means the criteria by which people will be judged so it is absolutely spot on and relevant to our discussion. Please remember my original quote from QUran “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.” WIthin the Aal of Abraham this is how people will be evaluated by Allah for leadership
P.S. Please read history properly. Hazrat Mohammad (SAAW) is from the progeny of Abraham as well, he is not an exception. Abraham had three sons, Ishaq, Ismail and Madyan. Off these 3 only Ishaq and Ismail were Prophets and Madyan had prophet Syub in his Progeny. Bani Israel are from the Progeny of Ishaaq and Mohammad (SAAW) is from the Progeny of Ismail.
^can you please answer the following questions:
1 - what happened to the Prophets (peace be upon them) from Ibrahim's ('alayhi salam) progeny (or before him) who did not become Imams? Were they "Dhalims" that they did not achieve this status?
2 - Is Imamah greater than the Prophethood?
Re: Imam
I know where you are taking this conversation. But let me answer your regardless, first let me put the verse in again so you have no trouble scrolling up
002.124 *
**YUSUFALI:* And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Not everybody becomes an Imam from those who are not Zalim. Even Abraham had to go through a "trial" to qualify as an Imam, even though he was already a Prophet.
Re-read the verse and tell me.
....Hz. Muawiya (ra)...
boy o boy, i was hoping you would have learned something in all these years but you seem to be going in the reverse gear.........
Ramesha **and **righteous have done nothing but dutifully push the Imami 12er line.
And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Quran other than this or change it...[10:15]
I don't like repeating this over and over but FYI i belong to a Sunni (Hanafi) family but Alhumdolillah now i have found complete peace & confidence in my faith of the 12 Imams of the Prophets progeny (may Allah send his blessings on them).
#1
Sorry to pop your bubble but verse 71-74 are not conjunctive. The sequence of address stops at verse 71 which you ignorantly or manipulatively have conjined with the verse 72 to make it look like a sequence. Ask any native Arabic speaker and s/he will confirm a clear change in tone and address. See Tafseer Ibn Kathir as to if he takes these verses in a set that you are trying to present to us: Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir
#2
You have also very conveniently stopped at verse 74 however verse 75 carries a significant part of the message. With this verse now i present the verses:
[25:72] And they who do not bear witness to what is false, and when they pass by what is vain, they pass by nobly.
[25:73] And they who, when reminded of the communications of their Lord, do not fall down thereat deaf and blind.
[25:74] And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).
[25:75] These shall be rewarded with high places because they were patient, and shall be met therein with greetings and salutations.
#3
Allahu Akbar, if these verses do not refers to the holy Ahl ul Bayt from among whose offspring are the twelve Imams then please do share with us who acoording to you are the subject of these verses.
Accoring to Shia tafaseer These verses are in continuation of verses 63 to 67 of the same sura.
In these verses those righteous persons have been described who have earned the right to pray to Allah to appoint them as Imams to guide the pious. See commentary of al Baqarah : 124 and 128. The prayer of Ibrahim in verse 128 of al Baqarah, and the promise of Allah in verse 124 of al Baqarah support the interpretation Imam Jafar bin Muhammad as Sadiq gave as under:
“This verse refers to the holy Ahl ul Bayt from among whose offspring twelve Imams, one after another, were appointed by Allah.”
@righteous
Unlike you, I'll ask questions to clarify If I'm ignorant of something before attacking them with straw man and throwing random accusation without any evidence. So please bear with me here for a moment as I'm not well versed in this issue. I don't argue for the sake of argument
1) What is your evidence that not every non-dhalim (zalim) become an Imam?
2) What "trial" did Prophet Ibrahim ('alayhi as-salam) go through? Do every Imam have to go through some sort of a "trial"? If so, can you please give some examples for all the Imams?
3) Do only Prophets become an Imam?
4) What about people before Prophet Ibrahim ('alayhi as-salam)? Did they have any Imam? If not, the why did they not need an Imam, when the job of an Imam is guiding people?
Now, let's point out the inconsistency in your argument, according to the ayah only the non-dhalim (zalim) people can become an Imam as Allah Ta'ala says (interpretation of the meaning): "My Promise (Imamah) is not within the reach of evil-doers". This implies that those Prophets (peace be upon them) who didn't become an Imam were dhalim ('aoudbillah). You can't twist this ayah more than what you already have as it is an evidence against you. You got only two ways to run:
1) dhalim people can also be prophets
2) not every non-dhalim is an Imam (but what's the evidence for this?)
Re: Imam
Let's suppose I agree with your interpretation here. As it is according to you belief that Allah Ta'ala grants Imamah to deserving people without any external interference. And the infallible Imams by their status of infallibility know that they'll become Imam eventually, in specific when the previous Imam passes away. In addition, you believe that the Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa salam) has foretold about the 12 Imams. So why does an Imam has to make du'a to Allah Ta'ala for becoming an Imam when we know the du'a has nothing to do with Allah Ta'ala pointing him an Imam? According to your understanding, the Imam is asking for perfection and infallibility as a normal person can't do this according to your own beliefs. However, such du'a is already redundant for an already infallible and perfect person! This is all inconsistent or incompatible with your doctrine!
Re: Imam
^^ Let me answer your first four questions
Allah says in Quran that Imamat would not be extended to evil doers. The fact that an Imam is non-zalim is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.
You ought to know the answer my dear friend. I will give you a hint about one of his trials. Hint - I am sure you sacrifice an animal on Eid ul Azha. Have you ever wondered why?
I haven't seen prophethood as a precondition mentioned anywhere, if you have enlighten me. My understanding is anybody in the progeny that God chooses and meets the criteria.
Abraham raised a request and God made a promise to him. In no possible way this implies that Imamat started with Abraham.
Now lets talk about your fallacious reasoning in trying to point my inconsistency.
If you read the verse God is talking about testing an individual before bestowing the honour of Imamat. Being a Non-zalim is a precondition.
So let me break it down for you, what I personally understand from the verse
By no stretch of imagination you can conclude that Since Imams are non-zalim, all non-Imams are Zalims. This is the fallacy of your argument
1 - a trail for Ibrahim ('alayhi as-salam)
2 - he became an Imam
3 - he requested the same honour for his offspring
4 - dhalim cannot become an Imam
Allah Ta'ala didn't say that his non-dhalim offspring has to go through a trial before they become an Imam!
Even if I agree with you, how does it show that every non-dhalim doesn't go through a trial and hence doesn't become an Imam? Are you telling me that Prophets (peace be upon them) don't go through a trial? If you say no the other Prophets went through a trial but failed. Maybe you can give some examples?
1) but that's not what the ayah says; the ayah tells us that Allah Ta'ala chose him (peace be upon him) as an Imam after he passed a trial, it doesn't he requested for it. However, he did make a request for his offspring but this contradict your own doctrine, which is that an Imam is chosen by Allah Ta'ala without any outside interference.
2) Who were the Imams before Ibrahim ('alayhi as-salam)? If the Imamah didn't start with Ibrahim ('alayhi as-salam), it means people from outside of his progeny can also become an Imam as they could be in the progeny of previous Imams!
Now lets talk about your fallacious reasoning in trying to point my inconsistency.
If you read the verse God is talking about testing an individual before bestowing the honour of Imamat. Being a Non-zalim is a precondition.
So let me break it down for you, what I personally understand from the verse
By no stretch of imagination you can conclude that Since Imams are non-zalim, all non-Imams are Zalims. This is the fallacy of your argument
already addressed this above but let me say that we're specifically talking about Prophets here.
since you believe that the Imamah is greater than the Prophethood, why is it not frequently mentioned in the Qur'an? Why doesn't Allah Ta'ala mentioned alongside Prophets and Messengers that we sent Imams as according to you not every non-dhalim can be an Imam?
Re: Imam
aey Allah kay banday....isey urdu main kaj bahsee kehtey hain...
You are not challenging me...you are challenging the word of God.
Just tell me...
As far as calling shia rafidis or khawarjis or nasibis...its just that you have been brainwashed to act in a certain way. Its called conditioning. You are not open to reasoning. Everytime you hear the word Imamat or Shia you are conditioned to respond in a certain way?
You are willing to throw all your intellect and weight in disproving the Imamat given to Abraham and selected ones in his progeny. God never put prophethood as a condition, God never said it will end on a certain date, He made a promise to Abraham (AS).
Now as far as your point regarding the value of Ali relative Prophet (SAAW). There are numerous quotes in Shia sources (and Sunni ones) that Ali is Prophet's (SAAW) deputy, his minister, his naib.
A deputy does not have the same status as the master. Ali spent his life in the service of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and in the service of God.
Please stop spreading this crap about shias that they think somehow Ali (AS) is better than the Prophet (PBUH) or Gabriel made a booboo and went to the wrong person. It is insulting to not only our beliefs but to our common sense and intelligence. We always take Ali as the "wasi ur Rasul Allah".
Please go read Quran and Hadith about the person who spreads misinformation and lies, kuch sharam karo aur azab-e-qabar ka socho meray bhai.
In order to legitimise Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman, please do not accuse a large section of believers falsely.
Re: Imam
Before you people do this exhaustive, never ending research on Imamate, can you tell me
1- Who is the Imam now?
2- If i want to follow Imam, how can i do it?
3- How those following Imam are better than those who are not.
Re: Imam
don't start doing the same thing as you did in the other thread. Don't accuse me of being brainwashed etc without any evidence. If you want respect from me then I ask for same thing. When you answer my questions and have proved your position, then tell me to read Qur'an and hadith and brag about majority of people following your set of belief. Next time, don't attack me but attack my arguments, otherwise just tell me that you can't answer or you don't know or you don't want to discuss with me.
Sorry I don’t have bubble so there was NO bubble for you to pop – just your imagination! Surely must have been good for your ego trip. Just enjoy it (ego trip).
It is typical shia tactic to attribute any ‘positive’ and complimentary ayahs to their imams by any means whatsoever.
Similar twist is given by the Shias to ayahs 33:28 to 33:35 just to keep the blessed wives of the Prophet (saw) out of what is stated.
I am sorry that you take me to be ignorant or manipulative – seriously coming from you I’ll take it as a compliment.
It will be advisable for you ask any native Arabic speaker making sure that he doesn’t wear any sectarian glasses and s/he will confirm that the word AND shows the sequence and continuity of the ayahs.
Below I have given you various translations of ayahs and note the word AND is maintaining the sequence and the follow of ayahs.
And whoever repents and does good, he surely turns to Allah a (goodly) turning. [Shakir 25:71]
And they who do not bear witness to what is false, and when they pass by what is vain, they pass by nobly. [Shakir 25:72]
And they who, when reminded of the communications of their Lord, do not fall down thereat deaf and blind. [Shakir 25:73]
And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil). [Shakir 25:74]
These shall be rewarded with high places because they were patient, and shall be met therein with greetings and salutations. [Shakir 25:75]
Abiding therein; goodly the abode and the resting-place. [Shakir 25:76]
Say: My Lord would not care for you were it not for your prayer; but you have indeed rejected (the truth), so that which shall cleave shall come. [Shakir 25:77]
And whosoever repenteth and doeth good, he verily repenteth toward Allah with true repentance -[Pickthal 25:71]
And those who will not witness vanity, but when they pass near senseless play, pass by with dignity. [Pickthal 25:72]
And those who, when they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat. [Pickthal 25:73]
And who say: Our Lord! Vouchsafe us comfort of our wives and of our offspring, and make us patterns for (all) those who ward off (evil). [Pickthal 25:74]
They will be awarded the high place forasmuch as they were steadfast, and they will meet therein with welcome and the ward of peace, [Pickthal 25:75]
Abiding there for ever. Happy is it as abode and station! [Pickthal 25:76]
Say (O Muhammad, unto the disbelievers): My Lord would not concern Himself with you but for your prayer. But now ye have denied (the Truth), therefor there will be judgment. [Pickthal 25:77]
And seeing that he who repents and [thenceforth] does what is right has truly turned unto God by [this very act of] repent¬ance. 25:71 (Asad)
And [know that true servants of God are only] those who never bear witness to what is false, and [who], whenever they pass by [people engaged in] frivolity, pass on with dignity; 25:72 (Asad)
And who, whenever they are reminded of their Sustainer’s messages, do not throw themselves upon them [as if] deaf and blind; 25:73 (Asad)
And who pray “O our Sustainer! Grant that our spouses and our offspring be a joy to our eyes, and cause us to be foremost among those who are conscious of Thee!” 25:74 (Asad)
[Such as] these will be rewarded for all their patient endurance [in life] with a high station [in paradise], and will be met therein with a greeting of welcome and peace, 25:75 (Asad)
Yeah that’s what only Shia will say.
Read the following ayahs: ( I hope you won’t attribute them exclusively to ‘your select ahlul bayt’.
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward. [Yusufali 48:29]
See how grudgingly Shia commentator has to say about the above ayah.
*Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
According to some commentators “those who are with him” refers to all those who were physically in his company, but the description given in this verse renders them inadmissible. The last portion of this verse confirms that only some of the companions are included, not all. *
Typical!!!