Imam

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Re: Imam

I have read the discussion taking place here and i personally am a believer of the divine leadership of Hazrat Imam Ali and the rest of the Imams from his lineage.

Just out of curiosity though i have always had a question for people who do not believe in Imamate. In Quran we read "Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you." Quran 5:3

Do you believe that religion, having been completed in its entirity by the Prophet as stated in the Quranic verse above, did not pinpoint any sort of leadership strcuture and just left the seat of leadership for the people to fight over? (particularly when in the Quran there are many instances when even divinely appointed leaders were quarelled with and not accepted by the people, e.g. Taloot, Haroon etc)

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In both Sunni and Shia books, there are plenty of authentic traditions on the subject of the divine leadership of the Ahlay Bayt (as). These traditions include hadiths of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) and the Ahlay Bayt (as) too. One source you could try to search is; al-islam.org. Let me know if you need any sort of help in this regard as i could direct you to actual books on this subject.

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My Question to our Shia Brotheren now is How come they have No objections in picking Mr Zardari...................

Why fight over the Past history about piety and decendancy............and not care who becomes our leaders in the present..............

Does Prez Zardari fit any of those categories that Shia are always fighting with the Sunni's about?

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Re: Imam

^ good question ...but leaving this aside

the core issue by which the 12er shias differ from other muslims is concept of imamate
now if we look at the traditions from first 4 of their imams the message is distinctly different than from the sources that quote the 5-6 imam and onward

secondly we must remember that shia is not one monolithic term and represent different ideologies at time time periods ....

nor can we say that 12er the single parent sect from which all the other subsects branched of ...

so all debates of superoirity of ahlulbayt vs sahaba and more specifically abu bakr vs ali are useless from a doctrinal perspective
e.g i might think that muadh b jabal was most suited to be caliph ....that does not make me a follower of a different sect , similarly in times of salaf holding different views of various companions automatically did not put them into different sects

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Re: Imam

[QUOTE]

I am debating on my concept of Imamat or divinely ordained leadership as is clearly stated in Quran. Lets stick to the concept of an Imam as presented in Quran for Abraham.

Every Muslim will agree that Imamat or leadership is divinely ordained.

Likewise Allah sates in Quran that Imamat or leadership was given to Abraham, like it was given to Noah before him, and will continue to be in his progeny.

If you deny this then you are denying the word of God.

[/QUOTE]

you know all this sounds really simple and obvious but there is more to it

firstly u cannot compare the example of earlier Prophets with Muhammad in all respects
as he was distinct in many ways
secondly if this was so simple why didnt a sizable majority of muslims hold this view from the very start of islam .Furthermore there wud be no divergence of opinion on this and to believe this we have to ignore the centuries of intra-shia debates]
thirdly Prophet would have made his will clear in EXPLICIT terms on many occaisons , not to mention in the Quran afterall if Quran can talk about issues pertaining to inheritence to stories about lost civilizations surely the most important part of the message deserves a mention]
fourthly in intial debates of caliphate it was personal qualities of ali not a divine designation that was used as an argument.

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Obama, has Zardari claimed to be Khalifatur Rasool Allah?
And as far as i know, nobody but the people in the White House picked Zardari.

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It would be helpful if you would just give the authentic traditions from reliable Sunni & Shia resouces.

Narrations from Hz. Ali (ra), Hz. Hassan (ra) and Hz. Hussein (ra) would be most helpful.

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Shia Imamis use the above hadith to convince only themselves that the Prophet (saw) somehow was to talk of Imamate of Hz. Ali (ra).

Above incidence took place on Thursday and the Prophet (saw) died on Monday.

So we have Friday, Saturday and Sunday as complete days in between.

Prophet (saw) wouldn’t have held anything back if it was helpful for his followers.

He is Rahmatul Alameen.

I think the day or a day before he passed away he did give advice to his followers.

Read the following statement of Hz. Ali (ra) very carefully:
*
The thing began in this way: We and the Syrians were facing each other while we had common faith in one Allah, in the same Prophet (s) and on the same principles and canons of religion.

So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles.

The point of contention between us was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split. They wanted to lay the murder at my door while I am actually innocent of it*. ** Nahjul Balagha Letter 58**Note:

Hz. Ali (ra) said:

He and Mu’awiyyah had common faith in Allah
Faith in same Prophet
Faith in same principles and Cannons of religion (Islam).
And So far as faith in Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) was concerned we never wanted them (the Syrians) to believe in anything over and above or other than what they were believing in and they did not want us to change our faith. Both of us were united on these principles.

And the only point of contention:

was the question of the murder of Uthman. It had created the split.

Did Hz. Ali (ra) mention that he was the Imam of the time? And Mu'awiyyah wasn't agreeing to it.

Did Mu’awiyyah believe that Ali was Imam of the time?

If he didn't how can Hz. Ali say that they had the same faith and nothing was amiss.

(I am not comparing rank of Hz. Ali (ra) Hz. Mu'wiyyah (ra).) There is no comparision! Full-stop!

There was not an iota of difference in the belief.

So no Concept of Imamate.

Please tell me according to you how in imam as you believe is chosen?

Is the new Imam appointed by the previous Imam?

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Ok, sure. First of all it seems from your writings that you think "Imamat" is some sort of subject like Mathametics that needs to be taught to people. My understanding is that Imamat in its simplest form means leadership. Right to leadership and requirements to be a leader are present in the Quran. Ramesha and righteous have presented many of them here without any response from either you or Das Reich. Why don't you 1)refute this form of leadership from Quran 2)prove an alternate model of leadership from Quran or acknowledge that Quran has not provided any guidance in the matter of leadership and remaines quiet.

Now if i copied and pasted 10 verses or hadiths here proving Ahlay Bayt (as) to be superior to the rest of the ummat then the discussion might take a new, long turn. Instead i would ask you to tell me from Quran or Sunnat the qualities one should have to be a leader. I will prove to you from Quran and Sunnat how Ali Ibn Talib (as) was surperior to all and why right of leadership belonged to him.

The sermon from Nahjul Balagha has Hazrat Ali addressing Muslims living in Syria. They had great sahabi such as Abuzar Ghaffari living among them. They weren't rejectors of Imam Ali's right to leadership but were ignorant and hated him only under the influence of mass propoganda of lies that Muawiya had created against the Ahlay Bayt. They were deceived and their intentions were not bad so they were as Muslims as the rest of Muslim population of that time.

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Re: Imam

@Ibn Sadique

Now its my turn to say that you are running away from the argument because you don't really have an answer.

If you agree to what I write in Post #80 then you are accepting the premise that will destroy your argument.

If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with the word of God.

Hence you choose to raise irrelevant points instead of responding to POST #80.

If you don't respond then you have conceded this debate already.

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These are all your opinions.

This is not about shia-sunni or intra shia stuff. It is an Islamic issue and I am debating purely as a Muslim not as a shia or a sunni. On your third point, my argument is that Quran has made a clear promise to Abraham. On the fourth point, there was hardly a debate - there was murder. The people debating were all power hungry. What would you say about children who abandon their father's funeral to slug it out for the inheritance?

Read Caliph Umar's own opinion on how the first caliphate was awarded how the debate of who is better suited was one?

Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

This is how the debate was won.

......And so we became victorious over Sa'd bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed Sa'd bin Ubada..... (*Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 82, Number 81)

*

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[quote]
This is not about shia-sunni or intra shia stuff. It is an Islamic issue and I am debating purely as a Muslim not as a shia or a sunni.
[/quote]

you can call it what u want but the arguments u use are historically descended from those presented after 1st century hijrah
selectively quoting some ayats of Quran cannot explain the centuries of discord on this issue

also ur objectivity is in doubt as u only adhere to POV of one party

[quote]
On your third point, my argument is that Quran has made a clear promise to Abraham. On the fourth point, there was hardly a debate - there was murder. The people debating were all power hungry.
[/quote]

so in your opinion ALL of them were power hungry including ALi ?

[quote]
What would you say about children who abandon their father's funeral to slug it out for the inheritance?
[/quote]

what about the sahaba other than abu bakr /umar who were not present in the funeral and also "slugging it out " at the saqifa

[quote]

Read Caliph Umar's own opinion on how the first caliphate was awarded how the debate of who is better suited was one?

Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

This is how the debate was won.

[/quote]

well if u r implying that this selection was due to an ad hoc process then may i add once again] u are preaching to the choir .....

[quote]

......And so we became victorious over Sa'd bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed Sa'd bin Ubada..... (Sahih Bukhari - Volume 8, Book 82, Number 81)

[/quote]

sa'd b ubadah radiallahanhu was not killed in the saqifa but was badly beaten due to a brawl ...and if u want my opinion then i dont agree with umar radiallahanhu on this issue ....i think the ansar wud have made caliphs just as good [if not better than ] quraish
but these conflicts amongst companions [which were non-bloody till time of uthman] do not in anyway priove ur point of view either ......

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Re: Imam

Here the conflict is of sources

pathan & righteous are using some quotations from Quran in broad sweeping terms to solve a complicated issue

superficially this may seem very simple to you but the how do u explain the enormous debate over this issue not only between proto-sunnis and shias but also within shias themselves

You cannot ignore the overwhelming historical incidents regarding this issue and simply rely on some Quranic explanation to successsion which it seems was not so obvious to the salaf

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Re: Imam

[QUOTE]
Why don't you 1)refute this form of leadership from Quran 2)prove an alternate model of leadership from Quran** or acknowledge that Quran has not provided any guidance in the matter of leadership and remained quiet**.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with the bolded part , there is no explicit designation of who is to succeed the Prophet Muhammad

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Ali was at the funeral so you cannot put him in the same league as the usurpers. I am talking about succession to the Prophet (SAAW). and what about the other Sahaba who weren't there. They are irrelevant for this discussion, since they were also not slugging it out for POWER. The two shaykhans are in question because they claim to be the closest to the Prophet and better among men to justify them being #1 and #2 in hierarchy to rule.

If Sa'ad wasn't killed then why accuse Umer of his killing and in turn Umer blaming Allah for the killing?

I am glad that you are agreeing to the brawling, I am sure this was the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAAW) to solve issues like that.

ALL you are offering are your opinions.

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How?

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[quote]
I am talking about succession to the Prophet (SAAW). and what about the other Sahaba who weren't there. They are irrelevant for this discussion, since they were also not slugging it out for POWER. The two shaykhans are in question because they claim to be the closest to the Prophet and better among men to justify them being #1 and #2 in hierarchy to rule.
[/quote]

but sa'd b ubaydah , hubbab b mundhir, thabit b qays were there even before 2 shaykhain showed up now are the 12ers going to claim that even these 3 sahaba were POWER HUNGRY

[quote]

If Sa'ad wasn't killed then why accuse Umer of his killing and in turn Umer blaming Allah for the killing?

[/quote]

again a classic example of quoting a hadith out of context if u read biography of sa'd he lived another 3-4 yrs after this incident

this is the common malaise of people who just read hadith but have contempt for history w/o history there are no narraters and w/o them there is no hadith

[quote]

I am glad that you are agreeing to the brawling, I am sure this was the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAAW) to solve issues like that.

[/quote]

no one is perfect and certainly mistakes were made

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thats a loaded question …like i suggested u read halm’s book as a primer for intra-shia debates about imamate

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Shi%60i-Islam-History-Doctrines/dp/0300035314/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235812978&sr=1-1

there are many other sources avalible too

this is a more advanced source for debates on 12er shia rijal

Naya hai shehr, naye asray talaash karun
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Re: Imam

[QUOTE]

ALL you are offering are your opinions.

[/QUOTE]

indeed but some are more informed than others

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What do you mean when you say that there is no "explicit" designation about leadership? How explicit do you want it to be in order to be acceptable, for example, do you wish to see the names, characterstics, physical details of the successor of the Prophet appear in the Quran? Has Quran attempted to even set any standards for one to be a leader?

People quaralled and argued about the teachings of the previous Prophets as well like Bani Israel or the Christians. Does that indicate that Prophet Musa or Prophet Isa were not "explicit" enough in their teachings and left people confused to fight and argue for centuries?

And if the message of Islam was completed in its entirity by our Prophet, then why do you hold the opinion that an important matter such as successorship was left unclear? ("Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you." Quran 5:3)