Imam

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Kinnare he cannot be Imam. Ramsha already answered your query. Imam has to be pure and free of Sins.

Read This.

033.033 *
**YUSUFALI:* And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. *And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. *

PICKTHAL: And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. *Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing. *

SHAKIR: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. *Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying. *

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Yes, There are some Sunni Sayyids, but I was talking about the other 95+ % Sayyids who are not Sunni.

Furthermore, The Sunni Sayyids were Shia to begin with, they are also descendants of Mohammed (saw). However, as we all are aware, Mohammed (saw) and his Aal has faced immense suffering throughout Islamic history. There were people who accepted Islam, but deep inside they were cultivating hatred towards Mohammed and his family in their heart. They have passed on their hostility generation after generation.

During Umayyad, Abbasid, and Ottoman empires, Shia/Sayyid were persecuted, systematically discriminated against, handpicked and beheaded. Some Shia/Sayyids started practicing Taqayya i.e. they concealed their true Identity, so their lineage could continue. There were generations raised as Sunni Sayyads. That’s the case with most Sayyids who are sunni.

There is also a very small percentage of people who attach syed with their names just out of respect and love for Prophet and his family

63

[quote]

I don't think Abu Bakr and Umar were pure evil. They may have done incorrect things with good intentions. Which in my personal opinion is what Umar was. An aggressive and tempramental man, prone to acting before thinking. Abu Bakr was just a bit passive and went along with Umar. I think they were just expedient.

Ummayads promoted them more to delegetimise the claim to leadership by Ahl-e-Bayt.

Muslims weren't all that amazing in the time of the prophet (saaw) either. They argued with him, they refuted him, they abandoned him and objected to his actions and decisions. There is Surah Munafaqoon as icing.

Is Karbala revisionist history? You think Imam Hussain (AS) was out to topple Yazeed. Don't you think Yazeed had animosity towards the family of the Prophet (SAAW). Look at his pedigree (or lack of it).

The biggest joke for Salafi/wahabi/ahlehadees is they think Mawiya was a good man. Hell they even think Yazeed was a good man, good enough to be labelled ra. Ask Zakir Naik and Bilal Philips and the gang.

I just ask one question, if there were rightly guided caliphs then Mawiya, Aisha, Talha and Zubair by raising a rebellion against Ali were wrong. If they were right then the concept of rightly guided caliph is flawed and lets question all of them. Guys you cannot have it both ways.

Prophet (SAAW) and his followers killed a lot of Ummayads (Mawiyas family). His grandmother Hinda ate the heart of Hazrat Hamza prophet's uncle. His Grandfather was banished from town by the Prophet (SAAW). They only accepted Islam after Mecca fell to Mulsims. Don't you see any obvious compromise situation.
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[/quote]

listen man i dont need an insolent puppy like u to lecture me on the innovations and deviations of the ummayyads ...i am very familiar with that
and guess what ... 12ers are not the first or last one to call attention to them
but these are all secondary issues between shias and sunnis
the primary difference is the issue of imamate

where do u stand on this ? do u believe in 12 divinely appointed imams or not ...

64

listen man i dont need an insolent puppy like u to lecture me on the innovations and deviations of the ummayyads ...i am very familiar with that
and guess what ... 12ers are not the first or last one to call attention to them
but these are all secondary issues between shias and sunnis
the primary difference is the issue of imamate

where do u stand on this ? do u believe in 12 divinely appointed imams or not ...
[/quote]

insolent puppy!!!....its amazing how you wahabi scum stick to name calling and abuse...learned it from your daddy mawiya, didnt yea

instead of asking me what I believe in, refute my arguments.

If you think Imamate is the only issue between Sunni and Shia...then as i said earlier (and I will repeat it once more so you may get it) then tell me that my arguments from Quran are incorrect or I am misquoting the Book...so we can get on with wasting our time in this meaningless babble

Ninja ki Shadi
65

Wether Shia or Sunni...........let us not forget the only distinction Allah (SWT) makes amoung us is:

Al-Hujurat [49:13] يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ

49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

***None of the different sects of Islam have any quarrel over this ayat...........

Please let us stick to this common factor for the sake of Unity and Peace............

May Allah (SWT) Guide us all.................ameen!

66

righteous

Highlight the unanswered points raised by you so that they can be addressed

Meanwhile you have missed answering the following:

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Re: Imam

Bhai everyone came alone and will leave alone forever when the Creator calls.

Whats the use of all these arguments over and over again?

What would one achieve out of these?

Yes, when it comes to things like hatak e rasool i.e. naoozubillah degrading Last Prophet of Allah, then one can bring out a fruitful discussion with refernces.

This is not the final questions and answers time, meaning the one we will have to face in our graves.

Plus its extremely unlikely that anyone will be guided to the right path through fighting in these online forums.

We must bear foremost that we all are Kalmago first, religious sects and subsects come later.

Unite people, in this difficult time the Ummah is suffering through, just unite and spread the message of peace.

68

I thank you for this post.

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[quote]

insolent puppy!!!....its amazing how you wahabi scum stick to name calling and abuse...learned it from your daddy mawiya, didnt yea

[/quote]

muawiyah tu tumhara baap hai kiyon kay tum log shariat kay dushman ho aur bidaati ho jaisay muawiyah paleed tha
aaj baray ali aur hussain kay jaanisar bantay hain ...

[quote]

instead of asking me what I believe in, refute my arguments.

If you think Imamate is the only issue between Sunni and Shia...then as i said earlier (and I will repeat it once more so you may get it) then tell me that my arguments from Quran are incorrect or I am misquoting the Book...so we can get on with wasting our time in this meaningless babble

[/quote]

YOUR arguments ? u are just reguritating the same things written by tijani and other fools like him.We have all discussed them repeatedly on this forum use the search option.
arent u the same guy who didnt know that hasan b ali was the 5th caliph ?
baray bantay hai ali kay shia ....
siraf nach gaanay aur tamashay ka naam mazhab banadiya hai aur agar is par protest karo tu wahabi wahabi chilay nay lagtay hain

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Re: Imam

@DAS REICH

I think you are pretty messed up. I gave a summary of my views let me hear yours. I am always open to learning.

And quit the name calling.

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Re: Imam

my views in summary
Prophet did not appoint any successor
Ansar gathered to elect a leader
some muhajireen fearing strife within muslims convince them to accept abu bakr
ansar protest but eventually accept given abu bakr's credentials
ali & banu hashim/their allies protest at thier being left out but eventually recouncile when apostasy wars start
abu bakr rules well for 2 yrs and die
umar becomes caliph tries to rehablitate the early companions as leaders of community , heals ties with banu hashim, he is rewarded by good success , he rules with firmness and justice.He reverses the influence of later quraishi converts.
uthman is elected by shura , personally uthman is a good man but because of his nepotism he becomes unpopular esp since the influence of early converts is eroding and his ummayyad relatives try to usurp public lands/funds. Muslims revolt from provinces and besiege uthman for days to convince him to give up his ways but uthman is unwilling to surrender his relatives so he gets killed.
Ali is elected by the muhajireen & ansar who were either neutral or hostile to uthman.Ali's supporters mainly are non-quraishi and ali now follows the same policies as umar's and abu bakrs [except for stipends and that he treats non-quraishi at par with even banu hashim quraishi]
other Quraishis seeing themselves not benefitted by ali's policies revolt against him under pretext of avenging uthman's blood.Rest is all we know jamal & siffin follow etc etc

72

thats the best u cud come up with? ....why dont u admit that u are a 12er ?
I wud if I was but I am not ....as i dont believe in the concept of imamate or infallible imams
also while 12ers hate the first 2 caliphs , i actually have a very good opinion of them esp umar who i consider the best caliph after ali
i just oppose the ummayyads for some nasibis that is being"shia" thats why i dont call myself a sunni , otherwise my views are identical with ahle-sunnah

73

Re: Imam

@DAS REICH

Leaving aside infallibility, tell me why don't you accept the concept of Imamat, when God promised it to the offspring of Abraham?

Weird Traditions From Around The World .
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Re: Imam

^ as there is ample historical proof to suggest that this concept gradually EVOLVED amongst the shia sects over years

secondly when ithna ashariyya beliefs were formulated after imamte of jafar sadiq there was a lot of retrospective interpretation of Quranic verses to justify the 12er dogma

75

righteous I guess you forgot to answer the following. It's got to do with Concept of Imamate

Allah (swt) states in the Quran many a time that He has sent many messengers for the guidance of mankind and yet no mention of 'Imams of the time." Ponder.

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Re: Imam

  • 003.033 * YUSUFALI: Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

*

002.124 *
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

  • 007.142 *
    YUSUFALI: ............................ And Moses had charged his brother Aaron (before he went up): "Act for me amongst my people: Do right, and follow not the way of those who do mischief."

  • 025.035 *
    YUSUFALI: (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

  • 002.027 *
    YUSUFALI: Those who break Allah's Covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder what Allah Has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth: These cause loss (only) to themselves.

*Book 013, Number 4016: * Ibn Abbas reported: When Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, 'Umar b. al-Kbattab being one of them. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that. Thereupon Umar said: Verily Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Qur'an with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us. Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him And some among them said what 'Umar had (already) said. When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), he said: Get up (and go away) 'Ubaidullah said: Ibn Abbas used to say: There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) could not write (or dictate) the document for them.

"I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." [Reported in
Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63]

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the
position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no
Prophet after me"

(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700
(2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71
(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12
(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174
(5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16
(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

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Re: Imam

@IBN SADIQUE

Look at my post. I have quoted from Quran and Hadees.

Are you telling me that the word of God and His Messenger (SAAW) is not enough?

Just a couple of quotes from Nahjul Blagha

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica] "The son of Abu Qahafa has assumed the mantle of the caliphate forcibly although he knew that I was essential for the caliphate as the handle is for the grinding stone which moves it. In Islamic learning I excel everyone else, and the caliphate should have come to me as a matter of course. At this disregard of my right I became confused. I began to think whether I should assert my claim, or whether I should practice forbearance and patience after a good deal of thinking I decided to adopt the later course".

"If i say something about the caliphate the people would say that i am ambitious for power. If i remain silent there are people who would say i am afraid of death. I have suffered many wrongs.The people should have known the the son of Abu Talib is much fond of death as the infant is fond of the milk of its mother. My silence is because of the secret which i alone know. If i reveal the secret you will tremble and shudder as the strings binding a vessel shake when the vessel is lowerd in the well."

78

righteous Is that your proof for Concept of Imamate (I mean the 12er Shia version)???

Does anything in the above quotation remotely convey the message of Imamate??

And you should know better the Hz. Aaron (Haroon) (as) never succeeded Hz,. Moses (Musa) (as) because he had died much earlier than Hz. Musa (as)!!!

79

Read the above again and this time very slowly.

Note that Hz. Ali (ra)

1) never mentioned the word Imam or Imam of the time as 12ers believe.

2) never mentions Khum Ghadeer ( Shia claim that Imamate was bestowed on him)

3) at best the above shows that Hz. Ali (ra) considered himself best suited to succeed the Prophet (saw)

I can quote from the same book where Hz. Ali (ra) says "Leave me and find someone else."

Would he say that? He had no right to say that if indeed Allah (saw) had chosen him for the Imamate (12er version).

Any such quotations from Imams Hassan and Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them both)?

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Re: Imam

@ IBN SADIQUE

why are you stuck on the 12ers concept of Imamat.

I am debating on my concept of Imamat or divinely ordained leadership as is clearly stated in Quran. Lets stick to the concept of an Imam as presented in Quran for Abraham.

Every Muslim will agree that Imamat or leadership is divinely ordained.

Likewise Allah sates in Quran that Imamat or leadership was given to Abraham, like it was given to Noah before him, and will continue to be in his progeny.

If you deny this then you are denying the word of God.

002.124 *
**YUSUFALI:* And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."