Imam

righteous That's not 'air-tight' rule. Pray, enlighten us; Who are the successors of Eesa (as)?

The Muhammad (saw) had four REAL daughter. They were as much his ‘flesh and blood’ as Hz. Hassan and Hussein (May Allah (swt) be pleased with them both) were ‘flesh and blood’ of Hz. Ali (ra).

They were the REAL of the Prophet (saw) from Hz. Khadijah (ra).
Their names are as follows:

Hz. Zainab bint Muhammad, Hz. Ruqayah bint Muhammad and Hz. Umm Kulthum bint Muhammad Hz. Fatimah bint Muhammad (May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all).

They are always addressed as “bint Muhammad” – (daughter of Muhammad) (even by Shia scholars!!!!!) .

Recall Hz. Zaid bin Harith (ra) was once called Zaid bin Muhammad as the Prophet (saw) had adopted him. By the direct command Allah (swt) in the Quran Hz. Zaid (ra) was called by his proper name using his real father’s name. Hence on he was always called as Zaid bin Harith.

In Islam a child MUST carry the father’s name if it is known.

Had these noble souls been daughters of ‘someone’ else’ then they wouldn’t have been addressed as ‘Bint Muhammad.

Shias deny this just to give exclusivity to Hz. Fatimah (ra) and of course exclusivity to Hz. Ali (ra) for being the only son in law of the Prophet (saw)!!!

Trust me the Prophet (saw) had other REAL son in laws and cousins too!!!

This is an open insult to Prophet (saw) by attributing fatherhood of his own flesh and blood to some other unknowns!

The above has nothing to do with Hz. Ali (ra)'s divine right to the Leadership!

I mean the ENTIRE Funeral, which as a muslim you should know includes a few things like ghusl, namaz-e-janaza and the burial.

Well I am sure a lot of people were not present there, since I believe only 13 people were present.

The 2 Shayks are singled out since they actually ran away from the funeral to usurp the government. All the present day maladies and sectarianism facing us Muslims today is due to the significant role these gents paid on that day.

Btw...before you start hurling insults at me, please read up the importance and significance Islam pays of attending Funerals of fellow Muslim, and then respond to me with the justifications that you have for this particular behavior.

For argument sake, I will take your word on the other daughters. This has been debated and will be debated. However, even if I take your word on the other daughters none had surviving offspring and that is beyond debate.

Yes Prophet (SAAW) had other cousins and uncles.

I agree Ali's right is not dependent on being the Son in Law.

He was the first male to accept Islam. He was by the prophet's side from the beginning to the very end. He was the most knowledgeable, the wisest and the bravest and from the same lineage as the Prophet (SAAW). He was only second to the Prophet (SAAW) in stature.

Regardless of how many cooked up Hadith you can bring in favor of others, you will find that none of the Shaikhs can measure up to Ali (AS). He was there when people were finding excuses to stay away from Badr, when many tried and failed at Khyber and the majority ran away at Uhud. He stood by the Prophets (SAAW) side when others didn't.

When others ran away from the Prophet (SAAW) funeral to usurp the Khilafat, Ali was there with a handful of true Sahaba like Salman Farsi, Abu Dhar Ghaffari etc to lay the jisd pak of Huzoor (SAAW) to rest.

Later on this is wat Umer had to say about it

Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him. (as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211; al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55; at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327; Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246)

Dude you know the whole story of Abraham, right. He

Well Jesus or Essa (AS) was raised into Havens by Allah. Don't tell me you believe that since Prophets are like ordinary men they can't live for thousands of year?

He was the last of the line who will return to this earth.

After Essa the prophethood passed on from the lineage of Hazrat Ishaq (AS) to the lineage of Hazrat Ismael (AS) where Mohammad (SAAW) was the last of the prophets and Al-Mahdi the last of the Imams who will return as our savior and will be followed by Hazrat Essa (AS).

Just remember that the God's covenant with Abraham was for Imamat in his offspring and that too till the end of time.

Sure 2 Ayat 124

And (remember) when his lord tried Abraham with(his) command and he fulfill them he Said: loI hame appointed thee Imam for mankind (abraham) said and I of my offspring (will there be Imam) Allah said My convenant includeth not wrong doers.

.....and yet people question!!!

Re: Imam

righteous before u bring in ur usual cocktail of issues

plz answer my question in post 38 and 40

regarding merits of Ali vs merits of shaykhain thats not the ithna ashariyya argumentation of why Ali should have succeded Prophet.
Thats the reasoning of earlier shias and the Mutazilla

so either dissociate urself from the ithna ashariyya then we can debate in a different way] or stick to their official version

Meray Bhai I answered 38 in post #39 and 40 in #43.

I don't know what you mean my Mutazilla and early shia and what is the official version is.

My own understanding is simple and listed below, feel free to lump me in any category you want.

*Imamat is a divine instituition set by God in Quran
*God made a covenant regarding Imamat with Abraham
*Ali was divinely appointed by Allah as an Imam and announced by the Prophet (SAAW) on numerous occasions and most prominently at Ghadeer Khum after the last Hajj of the Prophet.

What you call the true Sahabas, they were shias. It is a word from Quran.

However, Ahl-e-Sunnah wal Jamah, Sunni, Ahl-e-sunnat, Ahl-e-Hadees are not from Quran or the time of the prophet so when did the word Ahl-e-sunnah wal Jamah and Ahl-e-sunnat came about and how? Some food for thought for you.

P.S. what are the early shia and what are isna ashari and what is the official view....please enlighten me

Ibn-e-Sidique I will answer your post # 33 in few hours. I realized that the argument was never ending, you cant convince me, I cant convince you. so I just detached myself for a while. I dont like to engage myself in confrontational discussions. Time is precious.

I was only giving you the context of the sermon you had quoted.

i am sorry sir but u cannot wiggle ur way out of this by simply saying my understanding is simple
three points u listed are definately ithna ashariyya or twelver shia ideology.

now do u claim that this sect was in existence in the time of the Prophet ?

but since you have admitted your ignorance of various divisions between proto-shias and proto-sunnis plz first review them before coming for a "debate" I would suggest Heinz Halm's books on shiaism as a useful templete to build on ...its objective and free from anti-shia polemics

firstly shia is presently just a layman's term for the 12er sect, it does not represent them all.
secondly shia being a word in Quran does not mean a thing , shia in its present term is not interchangable with its original use in the first civil war
thirdly i am familiar with the exhaustive process of retrospective justifications which 12er scholars have done by presenting a revisiont view of history quite similar to what modern day nawasib have done] so u have not told me anything new.

Fatimah (ra) was the only child of Rasool Allah (saw) that survived and continued the progeny of Prophet. That is the truth, that is the complete truth, there is no way around it.

True descendants of Prophet Mohammed are called Sayyads. Sayyads are further divided into several groups such as Kazmi, Rizvi, Zaidi, Jafri, etc. Each group represent the descendants of a particular Imam. Such as Kazmis are the descendants of Imam Moosa Kazim (ra), Rizvis of imam Ali Raza (ra) and so on and so forth.

So if someone asks where is the lineage of Ibrahim (as) today. The answer is Najeeb O Turfain Sadaat (both parents sayyad all the way from Mohammed (saw) to that person). They are the present day progeny of Ibrahim (as) and Mohammed (saw). Shia and Sayyad are interchangeable terms.

Re: Imam

[QUOTE]
Shia and Sayyad are interchangeable terms.
[/QUOTE]

lol priceless ! I am outta here

^ Not that fast, that's what he's been told over and over again :)

Just like Momin and Shia.

Poor chap may not be aware that there are much more Sayyads who are Sunnis .

But then there are a lot of 'fake Sayyeds' too.

That’s true but Shias keep messing up the Prophet (saw)’s family.

They attribute fatherhood of Prophet (saw)’s own daughters to unknowns. (see the quotation below and that is typical).

Shias take their own wives to be part of their own family but when it comes to the Prophet (saw) his wives are not.

I will tell you something and if you want to kick me out of shiasm or sunnism then let it be.

I have a firm faith that religion is between God and Man.

There is a basic goodness of Islam that only the most deviant (hint People who chop of heads etc for difference of opinion) sects have lost, but I am sure not completely. No one can take that away.

I will be judged based on my personal beliefs and practices and behavior towards fellow human beings (not just muslims) and other living beings.

I don't gives a rats ass about being labeled by people like you that I am 12er or original shia etc. I haven't seen any revisionism in what I have read. I don't trust any source, I always cross check all the references and I form my own opinions.

Logically Shia jurisprudence makes more sense to me. Trust me I have done enough legal **** in my life to evaluate the difference.

I think the revisionism started primarily in earlier days by the Ummayads dynasty to justify their rule.

I don't think Abu Bakr and Umar were pure evil. They may have done incorrect things with good intentions. Which in my personal opinion is what Umar was. An aggressive and tempramental man, prone to acting before thinking. Abu Bakr was just a bit passive and went along with Umar. I think they were just expedient.

Ummayads promoted them more to delegetimise the claim to leadership by Ahl-e-Bayt.

Muslims weren't all that amazing in the time of the prophet (saaw) either. They argued with him, they refuted him, they abandoned him and objected to his actions and decisions. There is Surah Munafaqoon as icing.

Is Karbala revisionist history? You think Imam Hussain (AS) was out to topple Yazeed. Don't you think Yazeed had animosity towards the family of the Prophet (SAAW). Look at his pedigree (or lack of it).

The biggest joke for Salafi/wahabi/ahlehadees is they think Mawiya was a good man. Hell they even think Yazeed was a good man, good enough to be labelled ra. Ask Zakir Naik and Bilal Philips and the gang.

I just ask one question, if there were rightly guided caliphs then Mawiya, Aisha, Talha and Zubair by raising a rebellion against Ali were wrong. If they were right then the concept of rightly guided caliph is flawed and lets question all of them. Guys you cannot have it both ways.

Prophet (SAAW) and his followers killed a lot of Ummayads (Mawiyas family). His grandmother Hinda ate the heart of Hazrat Hamza prophet's uncle. His Grandfather was banished from town by the Prophet (SAAW). They only accepted Islam after Mecca fell to Mulsims. Don't you see any obvious compromise situation.

**Righteous **Now you are really clutching at straws by claiming that just because the word Shia is the Quran then by extention anyone who takes himself to be Shia (in the present sense of the word i.e. Shia sect) is on the correct path.

Shia is Arabic word meaing a party, group,sect etc.

It is nothing to do with Shia as you understand it.

You will be really surprised to know that the word Shia is mentioned in many other incidences.

See the following:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَفْعَلُونَ {159}

Inna allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shiyaAAan lasta minhum fee shayin innama amruhum ila Allahi thumma yunabbiohum bima kanoo yafAAaloona

Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. [Shakir 6:159]

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. [Yusufali 6:159]

Lo! As for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, no concern at all hast thou with them. Their case will go to Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do. [Pickthal 6:159]

قُلْ هُوَ الْقَادِرُ عَلَى أَن يَبْعَثَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابًا مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ أَوْ مِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِكُمْ أَوْ يَلْبِسَكُمْ شِيَعاً وَيُذِيقَ بَعْضَكُم بَأْسَ بَعْضٍ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُصَرِّفُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَفْقَهُونَ {65}

Qul huwa alqadiru AAala an yabAAatha AAalaykum AAathaban min fawqikum aw min tahti arjulikum aw yalbisakum shiyaAAan wayutheeqa baAAdakum basa baAAdin onthur kayfa nusarrifu alayati laAAallahum yafqahoona

Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We repeat the communications that they may understand. [Shakir 6:65]

Say: "He hath power to send calamities on you, from above and below, or to cover you with confusion in party strife, giving you a taste of mutual vengeance - each from the other." See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); that they may understand. [Yusufali 6:65]

Say: He is able to send punishment upon you from above you or from beneath your feet, or to bewilder you with dissension and make you taste the tyranny one of another. See how We display the revelations so that they may understand. [Pickthal 6:65]

ثُمَّ لَنَنزِعَنَّ مِن كُلِّ شِيعَةٍ أَيُّهُمْ أَشَدُّ عَلَى الرَّحْمَنِ عِتِيًّا {69}

Thumma lananziAAanna min kulli sheeAAatin ayyuhum ashaddu AAala alrrahmani AAitiyyan

Then We will most certainly draw forth from every sect of them him who is most exorbitantly rebellious against the Beneficent Allah. [Shakir 19:69]

Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah) Most Gracious. [Yusufali 19:69]

Then We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the Beneficent. [Pickthal 19:69]

مِنَ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ {32}

Mina allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shiyaAAan kullu hizbin bima ladayhim farihoona

Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them[Shakir 30:32]

Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself! [Yusufali 30:32]

Of those who split up their religion and became schismatics, each sect exulting in its tenets. [Pickthal 30:32]

The Quran has ordained to call ourselves Muslim.

These terms are used just to differentiate from people of one considers to be diviant from the correct path. (Ahlul Bida wal Dalala)

Just like you call your group ( I am assuming that you are a 12er) Shia Ithna 'Ashariyyah or Imami Shia or Jaffari Shia

Others will be Shia Ismailiyyah and Bohris etc, etc

So, what's your point?

Show me authentic sayings of Hz. Ali (ra) and his noble precious sons (may Allah be pleased with them both) clearly stating that they were The Imams of the Time or claiming for themselves Divine Appointment for Imamte as you want us to believe.

If they were, they were duty bound to proclaim it just as the Prophet (saw) reminded the people at all times that he was the Messenger from Allah (swt) and that he was the last one consistantly.

Do you know of any such authentic narrations from above named noble Souls (may Allah be pleased with them)?

Yes you are right. But it isn't only used in negative terms as you indicate.
The word "Shia" means "followers; members of party". As such, the term "Shia" alone has no negative or positive meaning unless we specify the leader of the party.

If one is a Shia (follower) of the most righteous servants, then there is nothing wrong with being Shia, specially if the leader of such party has been assigned by Allah.

On the other hand, if one becomes the Shia a tyrant or a wrong-doer, he shall meet with the fate of his leader.

In fact, Quran indicates that on the day of Judgment people will come in groups, and each group has its leader in front of it.

  • 017.071 * YUSUFALI: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Good Imams/leaders appointed by Allah (Like the Prophet (SAAW) and his progeny)
*
032.024 *
YUSUFALI: And We appointed, from among them, leaders, giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

And bad leaders (Pharohs, etc etc)

  • 028.041 *
    YUSUFALI: And we made them (but) leaders inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find.

  • 028.042 *
    YUSUFALI: in this world We made a curse to follow them and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the loathed (and despised).

There were people of the party of Moses

  • 028.015 * YUSUFALI: And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!" PICKTHAL: And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader. SHAKIR: And he went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Musa struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Shaitan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray.

Shias of Noah

  • 037.083 * YUSUFALI: Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.

So being a Shia is dependent on the Imam. We take the Prophet (SAAW) as our guide and that is followed by Ali and you know the list from thereon. We follow the way shown us by our Holy Prophet (SAAW) and his deputies starting from Ali (AS) and all the way to Imam Mahdi (AS) who is in ghaib and will return as foretold by the Messenger (SAAW). We are the Shias of the Prophet (SAAW).

I don't care in which twisted book you have read crap about shia belief. I was born a shi'a and as an Adult I evaluated and decided to stay one. My beliefs are crystal clear to me and they are not what you and your kind accuses the shias of?

I never understand why the word shia lights up the fuse of so many ordinarily sane and rational beings. Its probably the stereotype filled in your heads from the day moulvi saheb came started teaching you the first para along with the lesson that shias are kaafirs.

We believe in oneness of God
We take Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) as the seal of the Prophet and swear that he is the final Prophet.
We believe in Imamat as divinely ordained in the progeny of the Abraham as stated in Quran.
We believe in Zakat, Salaat, Hajj, Roza, Jihad, Khums (fifth)*
We believe the Quran is complete since Allah promised its protection.

====================================================
* KHUMS Definition
008.041 *
**YUSUFALI:
* And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger, and to near relatives, orphans, the needy, and the wayfarer,- if ye do believe in Allah and in the revelation We sent down to Our servant on the Day of Testing,- the Day of the meeting of the two forces. For Allah hath power over all things.

Re: Imam

@IBN SADIQUE & DAS REICH
I have answered all your questions with detailed reference. Instead of hurling fresh accusations and slander try answering the points I have raised in the past few posts.

Re: Imam

Here I would like start the discussion on the claim of Aga Khan who openly claims the he is direct decendend of Bibi Famita daughter of Prophet Mohammad (SW), and I have long discussion on this with Ismaili . They explain to me that he is 49th Imam without any breakage of linage.