Imam

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Hold your horses righteous! Let us not throw in more issues. This is Diversionary tactic, we will get to this too but please refer to my post quoted below for your ease.

I had asked you two questions please address them and then we can move forward otherwise we won’t get anywhere.

The following was asked of you:

1) Would he dare utter the following if he knew that Allah (swt) had appointed him as the rightful successor to the Prophet (saw)?

2) Does he have the right to opt out his divine mission?

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You are right about this aswell. We can notice that something was not done right after the death of Prophet Mohammed (saw), from this statement of Hazrat Umar (ra).
"Abu Bakr's Caliphate came into being without thought but Allah saved us from its mischief. If anyone repeats such an affair you should kill him."

as-Sahih, al-Bukhari, vol 8, pp.210, 211
al-Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol.1, p.55
at-Tabari, vol.1, p.l822; Ibn al-Athir, vol.2, p.327
Ibn Hisham, vol.4, pp.308-309; Ibn Kathir, vol.5, p.246]

23

Anyone heard of Eid e Gadheer??

Dont think so there is a handful even, from the looks of it.

:biggthumb

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The Prophet (PBUH) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household (Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to accept it till they pass it to a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that (time) ought to come to them even if crawling on the ice/snow since among them is the Vice-regent of Allah (Khalifatullah) al-Mahdi."

References:

  1. Sunan Ibn Majah, v2, Tradition #4082,
  2. The History Tabari
  3. al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 250-251
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Re: Imam

Salaam all,

If Ahlul Bayt (as) were not divinely ordained to lead the nation then all the verses in the Quran praising them and demanding their love are somewhat pointless, aren't they?

Ponder on the following verse:
[Shakir 10:35] Say: Is there any of your associates who guides to the truth? Say: Allah guides to the truth. Is He then Who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who himself does not go aright unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you; how do you judge?

Large majority seems ignorant enough to be lead by the people with doubtful characters and backgrounds yet leave no effort in going out of their way to deny the people of the family of the Prophet their special status and virtues that are simple unparalelled with anyone after the Prophet.

[Shakir 76:3] Surely We have shown him the way: he may be thankful or unthankful.

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Salaams ramesha Would you be kind enough to let us know why would someone who was divinely appointed advise his people to 'leave me and seek some one else'.

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief. - Nahjul Balagha Sermon 91

That's what Hz. Ali (ra) said!!

Can you believe the Prophet (saw) saying that to his followers?

The Prophet (saw) didn't because he was divinely appointed for the Prophet hood.

Had Hz. Ali (ra) been divinely appointed to lead the Ummah after the Prophet (saw) he would never offer to part with the responsibility come what may. And he was the bravest to face any challenge.

Care to tell us who is this 'large ignorant majority' who are 'ignorant enough' to be lead by 'the people with doubtful characters and backgrounds.'

And while you are at it i'll appreciate if you can name a few of these 'the people with doubtful characters and backgrounds'. who have lead the ignorant majority away.

Don't hold anything back.

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Re: Imam

^all has been answered in the book of Allah (swt), Quran. Read story of Prophet Musa / Harun (as).

All information is readily available for those who care to know.

wasalam

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Re: Imam

Every one is posting but no one is answering my orginal question, I was in conversation with an Ismaili. Who said the he is Imam and direct descendent of Hazrat Ali and he has been claiming this openly. I mean their is no secracy about it. So I would request every one to please answer my original question. Thanks.

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Trust me the last thing any one of us will do is to run away from an argument.

Please read it in its entirety and not out of context.

"If you want me for your worldly ends, then I am not ready to serve as your instrument. Leave me and select someone else who may fulfil your ends. You have seen my past life that I am not prepared to follow anything except the Qur'an and sunnah and would not give up this principle for securing power. If you select someone else I would pay regard to the laws of the state and the constitution as a peaceful citizen should do. I have not at any stage tried to disrupt the collective existence of the Muslims by inciting revolt. The same will happen now. Rather, just as keeping the common good in view I have hitherto been giving correct advice, I would not grudge doing the same. If you let me in the same position it would be better for your worldly ends, because in that case I won't have power in my hands so that I could stand in the way of your worldly affairs, and create an impediment against your hearts' wishes. However, if you are determined on swearing allegiance on my hand, bear in mind that if you frown or speak against me I would force you to tread on the path of right, and in the matter of the right I would not care for anyone. If you want to swear allegiance even at this, you can satisfy your wish."

The List Game - Car Brands (New Players Welcome)
30

Salaam Kinnare,

If you look at the verse closely you will notice that Allah (swt) has put a condition as to whom He will bestow the convenant of Imamate to.

.....Allah said My convenant includeth not wrong doers.

Wrong doers = Original word Quran has used is 'Zalimeen'. According to the holy Quran even minor form of Shirk or disobedience to Allah (swt) count as a Zulm and one becomes a wrong doer. Now, this person that you say claim to be an "Imam", could he claim to be free from all forms of 'wrong doing' mentioned in the Quran?

Also note that Allah did not say: The unjust will not reach My covenant, because it would have implied that it was within the power of man ‑ albeit a just one ‑ to reach the status of the imamah. Rather Allah (swt) says that my convenant will not reach the wrong doers. This sentence clearly shows that getting the imamah is not within human jurisdiction, it is exclusively in the hand of Allah and He gives to whom He pleases.

Iqtibas
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Rightful successor does not mean that he has to be a ruler too. Let me give you an example from the history of the prophets, Prophet Ibrahim (as) was the Prophet (Imam) of the time and Namrood was the King (ruler). In addition to that, aversion to the idea of ruling is not necessarily a bad thing. Lets go through the sayings of Prophet Mohammed in this regard:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "You see that the people are of different natures. Those who were the best in the pre-lslamic period, are also the best in Islam if they comprehend religious knowledge. You see that the best amongst the people in this respect (i.e. ambition of ruling) are those who hate it most. And you see that the worst among people is the double faced (person) who appears to these with one face and to the others with another face (i.e a hypocrite)."

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 699

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The tribe of Quraish has precedence over the people in this connection (i.e the right of ruling). The Muslims follow the Muslims amongst them, and the infidels follow the infidels amongst them. People are of different natures: The best amongst them in the pre-lslamic period are the best in Islam provided they comprehend the religious knowledge. *You will find that the best amongst the people in this respect (i.e. of ruling) is he who hates it (i.e. the idea of ruling) most, till he is given the pledge of allegiance." *

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 700

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Masha'Allah I really thought you will at least make an attempt to answer me.

I am so disappointed. Never mind.

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**So when it suits you guys the following hadith of 12 rulers is quoted somehow implying that the hadith refers to 12 'Shia' Imams.

I think only thing common is the number 12**

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I don't see anywhere where the great Imam Hz. Ali (ra) claiming his right as the divinely appointee to lead the Ummah.

This is the best opportunity for him to mention his divine appointment on day khum ghadeer.

He is duty bound to proclaim and insist on his divine appointment.

This Noble man would not compromise this position for anything.

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Re: Imam

hadith of 12 succesors was discussed to death in an earlier thread
if we read about the conflicts within the ranks of shias after imam baqir we know for a fact that this present lineup of 12 imams of ithna ashariyya was far from clear since the time of Prophet [even within the ranks of shias to say nothing of other communities].

At that time ithna ashariyya was a fringe sect of shias but it was only later did they emerge as the dominant sect within shias

regarding imam medhdi his hadith is not doubted amongst the sunnis either ...but question is this mehdi the son of the 11th imam who went into occulation ?
the 11th imam most likely never had such a son

Timepass- December 2012
Timepass- December 2012
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I believe that too , recently there is a great work specifically on this subject by a scholar of temple university and she has come to the same conclusion

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so what about Ghadeer....does that prove that ur ithna ashariyya sect is the one true version of islam ?

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Re: Imam

[QUOTE]
How many people attended the funeral of Rehmat-ul-Alameen (SAAW)?
[/QUOTE]

i luve the way ithna ashariiya jump from one to another issue !

well according to "sunni " version many sahaba came to pay their last respects to the Prophet including ur favourite ones ]

u shud ask the question how many people attended the burial of the prophet ? is that ur criterea for righteousness? ...then let me tell u it was mostly banu hashim and a few ansar but many sahaba even those who are very respected according to shias even 12ers] were absent from the burial of the Prophet

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Nobody is going off topic. I was only trying to make you see the point.

Please go and look up in any book the value that Islam puts on attending funeral. "My favorite ones" as you put it quickly ran off to grab the khilafat rather then stick around to participate in the burial.

Feel free to quote if you believe the two shaikhan attended the funeral?

From Adam (AS) down to all the prophets, it was always the Kin that were chosen as successors, never the sahabas, why did it change with the Holy Prophet (SAAW).

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if by funeral u meant burial then no shaykhain were not present but thats my point , many other sahaba who the 12ers claim to respect were also not present so why just single out the 2 shaykhs?