I was talking to a Sikh........

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

You have a point, but you see, if muslims lower thier guard they will instantly be attacked as you can see which has happened particularly this century. No one has to love anyone, only respect and treat each person as ALLAH swt's creation which is ordained in Islam. I dont know any other religion that says to do this. And if you chose to disobey God, then its up to God how to punish the person. God has already stated what he will do, therefore its in our interests to submit and aknowledge his supremecy. I really hope you do Insha'ALLAH because atleast you are trying to learn.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

So you are basically saying because something was not mentioned on this forum many times, it automatically must mean that its not part of the religion? If you also do a search on this site you will find some sell outs supporting george bushes policy and israels policy, in fact most of the tyrants of todays world unfortunately...

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

I know no one is forcing me to do this. If the word 'challenge' sounds big to you, then you suggest other word...or then let allah decide what to do with me. and i dont think i m inflicting anything upon myself. I am liberating myself and happy for rather not being a part of it.

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I worship ALLAH swt, and you worship?
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I meditate everyday on "voidness" or just focus on my "Existence"

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Nor do you serve him whom i serve - Do you serve ALLAH swt?
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if u are referring to God who is supposed to be sitting in some heaven, then i dont. For me God is there everywhere or God is not there at all.

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And i shall not worship that which ye worship - I shall worship ALLAH swt and not guru nanak.
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I dont worship/follow guru nanak. As such i dont believe in the concept of religion, but since everyone associates with some religion, so i am a hindu.

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- I am muslim Alhamdulilah, and you?
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As above.

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The only person here whom is blind is you my unlucky friend...
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I dont think so. One who commands not to give or attach attributes to Himself, cannot attach attribute of religion to his followers. Allah (if he is there) is not following what he is commanding.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

oh bhaio if no one is listening to each other, what's the point in debating so much?

Any way ssingh just an offhand remark. This is christian concept the God is in the heavens, we Muslims believe that God (Allah) is every where. He is Omnipotent & Omnipresent. A verse in Quran says that he is nearer to you than your juglar vein. Hope next time you won't think that Allah is sitting somewhere in heavens in Islamic belief.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

then what is that you guys seeing allah on the day of judgement if he is omnipresent???

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

But you wont. Give it a try.
I am not presenting this example as a proof but as an indicator of the thinking of muslims on a whole and particularily on this forum.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

well you are asking or trying to make fun? anyway

The issue is that he is omnipresent but can only be seen through the signs and not directly by humans. You can see the judgement day will be the one when the show will be over and results out. I mean his being hidden from us is the part of the test. If you read the signs correctly and believe on his presence and oneness you are almost through.

The debate will become endless and we will stick to our viewpoints, Neither has necessary stuff to completely refute the other because this is by design of Allah. If he would give away his presence than every one would have been his believer and there would be no test. So in the end it is a matter of belief. The word non believer does not mean that the person does not believe at all but he does not believe on this particular philosophy what we call Islam. No one should mind it, Khalsaas can call us non believers too in Sikhism sense, You belonging to Hindu family can call Muslims non believers too for we do not believe in dieties.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

I suggest that you have a look at Quran, not from critique point of view that you try to relate it with science of Today but to enjoy and think if the message being put across is good or bad.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

there are many hindus who dont believe in deities...

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

yes, and i was really surprised once i came to know this, because all i see in Indian movies is that going to some temple and ringing a bell in front of some diety with multiple hands or other organs gets the job done.

These days a lot of hinuds i meet are having beliefs somewhat similar to what you have, They are renouncing their own dieties and either turning athiests believing in economics & nature or they say that God is some thing over and above religions etc etc. They have a right to have their view and no comments offered from my side, but i was trying to tell is that this is a very solid impression amongst Muslims that Hinudus worship dieties and are vegetarians etc etc

You are singh & not sikh so are you jaat, i am asking because most of the Pakistanis think that sikhs are singhs and i assumed any indian with a surname singh to be sikh until i was corrected by one jaat friend of mine who was a singh but not a sikh (or khalsaa)

Ah i miss her
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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

The Sikh had a goot point... There is no reason logical reason why a Non Mulsim cant visit Mecca.. Its has nothing to do with whether Islam is from god or not. It just has to do with the isolationist and prejuduces tendancies harbored by many so called Muslims.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

THere is even one school of thought or sect started by rishi charvaka which goes against very basics of hinduism. It negates God, karma theory and reincarnation. But now there are no takers for it but it is considered as part of hinduism. I think hinduisms underlying philosophy is clear, being an atheist wont affect you in anyway. what affects you is your karmas.

Being an agnostic in hinduism is not new to it. It seems one of the prominent schools of thought agreed to it. Your actions/karmas judge you and not your belief or non-belief in God. It is just a brief of that school

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You are singh & not sikh so are you jaat, i am asking because most of the Pakistanis think that sikhs are singhs and i assumed any indian with a surname singh to be sikh until i was corrected by one jaat friend of mine who was a singh but not a sikh (or khalsaa)
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As such i dont believe in all these castes. i am not a jat , i am a rajput.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Knowledge for me indeed ssingh, it is good that you do not believe in these castes, They are just for identification not a matter of pride.

would you care to explain in a bit detail about Karma, are actions an entity in themselves which come back to you with a power to bite you or reward you or the God does not care in what form you believe on him but he just sees your karma.

Except the believing in God part, rest is the same in Islam only the language chosen is different. Only additional restriction is that you have to accept Allah as one and only one whose power is not shared by anyone.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Karma in simple words "for every action there is a reaction"...you reap what you sowed. it is related to re-incarnation also. but that is a bit deep explanation. (....I may not have any solid proof of reincarnation. but there are real life instances and not biographies as someone said. when discovery channel shows that theory of evolution is wrong, you guys are happy and when the same channel tells instances of people remembering their past lives, all of a sudden muslims are silent!)... God only plays the role of guiding or helping you to handle your karmas whether it is good or bad. I dont even bring god into all this.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

hmm, it is a natural reaction ssingh, why single out Muslims only. whenever your view point is seemingly winning you grin, once it is loosing you grim. quite natural.

I am not a schizophrenic or paranoid, nor do i believe that the whole world is after me but one thing may be you people not belonging to Islam can answer.

In Britannica encyclopedia, in the Macropedia Volumes i read about all the religions and less Islam, all the religions were described like they should be, whereas only for the section of Islam there were two views, first Islam as viewed by Muslims and then Orientalists / Non-Muslims.

This assures me on one ayat in Quran which says that Non Muslims cannot be your friends. Its literal meaning may be tha I & ssingh can not be friends but few commentators have rightly understood that Islam and other religions cannot be friends in totality. There are a thousand evidences to prove the point. Do you have any good reason for such an attitude which has not come to my mind other than jealousy.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

agreed it is somewhat natural. but have u seen buddhists, hindus, jains etc using it to prove their religion is true or to spread their religion or use it to prove the other one is false???...but now some are doing it by the way.

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This assures me on one ayat in Quran which says that Non Muslims cannot be your friends. Its literal meaning may be tha I & ssingh can not be friends but few commentators have rightly understood that Islam and other religions cannot be friends in totality. There are a thousand evidences to prove the point. Do you have any good reason for such an attitude which has not come to my mind other than jealousy.
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I never spoke/implied of any jealousy...

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

no no i never said it one a person to person basis

i was talking in a broader spectrum, religion to religion, collective psyche

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh…

I was about to make the same comment. Guru Nanak was actually in the Tasawwuf thing. along with Kabir, a hindu i believe, they wanted to bring peace to the world by getting the common things out of both the religions.
that he might have made the Hajj is doubtful, still it can not be ruled out. further it could be argued that the synthesis of these two religions was the start of Sikhism. that is maybe the reason why sikhism has so many of the muslim terminology.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

What were the religions on this earth before the advent of Islam. I have been to temples, churches, mosques and gurudwara and places where peer-fakirs 'live'. I don't feel any affect on my values of being good to every body. Why is this a problem with muslims ?

Sai baba was a Fakir from Shirdi and who worships him.. hundreds of non-Muslims ??

Kabir was a muslim and so was raheem..but both of them wrote excellent hindi poetry. Do people know it in pakistan ?. Amir khusro was on great poet who wrote poetry in many languages. It is difficult to associate him with a religion even though he carried a muslim name tag.

I picked up the following stuff from a blog

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Poets always had revolutionary ideas. They believed in God but have spoken against religion, in anger and the way religion is taken in contemporary society.

Kabir, the great Indian saint and poet wrote this against Hindu religion
Paahan pooje hari miley to mai pooju pahaad
*tat yad chakki bhali pis khaaye sansar *
(He says that if by praying to an idol (stone) leads to God then I will pray to a mountain and ridicules the concept of God in Hindu religion by saying that a stone flour mill is better as it feeds people)

Likewise Kabir takes pot-shot at Islam too.
kankar pathar jod ke masjid liya banaay
ta chad mullah baang de kya behra hua khudaay
The priest calls for prayer by calling out for followers 4-5 times a day.
(Kabir says why is the mullah(priest) shouting at the top of his voice. Has his God become deaf ?)

Kabir takes a blanket pot-shot at all religions by saying this

jyu naino mein putli, tyu maalik ghat maahi
murakh log jaahi, baahar dhondan jaahi.

(Kabir says that God resides inside us like pupil in our eye. All the followers of religion are ignorant as they try to search for God outside while He resides inside us.)

Another of great poets Mir taqi Mir ,considered Khuda-e-sukhan(God of Urdu poetry), also wrote against religion
Mir ke deen-o-mazhab ab poochte kya ho, unne to
qashqa kheencha dair mein baitha kab ka tarq islam kiya.

(Mir, here says dont ask me my religion I have relinquished Islam long back and have accepted Hinduism.).
This poem has to be understood in the context of Islam. Converting from Islam to any other religion is considered blasphemy and in Islam the person is condemned to death for having done so. One cannot convert from Islam to any other religion without facing wrath of Islamists even now in India.

Mir here challenges all the Islamic religious fanatics by openly claiming that he has relinquished Islam and accepted Hinduism.

Another famous poet , Sir Iqbal, one of the founding fathers of Islamic state of Pakistan, wrote this and created a furore. If I remember correctly this is from his book Shikva(complaint against God).

Kabhi hamse kabhi gairo se shaanasai hai
kehne ki baath nahi par tu bhi to harzaai hai .
(Sir Iqbal complains to God that sometimes He is with us(Muslims) sometimes with others(other religions) and calls God unfaithful for doing so.)
Now can anyone dare to call God Unfaithful ?

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Who goes to golden temple in Amritsar...Apart from sikhs all the Local Hindus. Prophet Mohammed was a human being like you and me but had more intellect and wisdom than a man in the street. I don't belive what mullahs and imams preach and practice was advocated by Prophet Mohammed.

Stop crying tauba tauba and answer my question..what lies inside the cuboid structure in Mecca where hundreds of Muslims go for haj.

The term Hindu is new..ancient term is sanatan dharma. Sanatan means eternal and dharma means law. So it is not an ideology like other religions. It is way of life and believes in the peaceful co-existence of all living forms. So what if a new name was given..we have had no difficulty in accepting it. Values don't change.

Distortions have taken place in all religions and present day Hinduism is no exception. Majority of followers of Islam unfortunately are spearheading the distortion in Islam unrestrained and apparently on the path of self destruction. Allah in sab ko sadbuddhi de.

We in India still sing..ishwar allah tero naam..sabko sanmati de bhagwaan.. a beautiful bhazan showcasing a fusion of Hindi Sanskrit and Urdu terminology.

regards

DS Pathania

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Well Pathania, your ideas are commendable, however what i fail to understand that if Hindu is a new term given by british to a group of religions / beliefs prevalent in the subcontinent and as per hindu claims they are the most tolerant religion as well (proof is you can worshipp any diety no questions asked and no sectarian conflicts). why there had been Hindu-Muslim, & Hindu-Christian riots? Hindus had been at loggerheads with all the religions in the subcontinent however interestingly they had no sectarian rivalry. why a religion which is so tolerant inside turns intolerant outside?