I was talking to a Sikh........

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

I do admit that there had been Hindu-Muslim riots in India. But just look at the profiles of people...illiterates and hooligans from both sides manipulated by politicians. But there are some cities where people from both sides have realised that there is no point in fighting and live peacefully.

The point I am conveying is that distortion has taken places in all religions and Hinduism is no exception. Unfortunately it is more in Islam and its effects are on a global scale. I don't agree with anybody who thinks that his religion is superior to other's. All are different paths leading to one great power that is GOD.

We didn't have Hindu christian riots but it was statements made by pope john paul II and recently by pope benedict XIV that led to street protests. Hinduism doesn't believe in proselytising like Islam or Christianity and that's where conflicts start when poor tribals are enticed by missionaries to embrace christianity for a handful of pennies.

I have given enough reasons in one of my posts as to why such a large muslim minority in India is still backward unlike parsis, jews, christians or buddhists.

Please go through it and let me have your response.

regards

DS Pathania

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Well Pathania you are right in most of the accounts.

However Muslims actually tend to differ in thinking than other religions. They believe that though all paths are going towards Allah, rest have big hurdles which cannot be crossed, like believing in dieties etc etc. You remove these hurdles (man, that is Islam all about). Same path where you are going, if you just renounce all dieties except Allah, you are automatically a Muslim.

My friends would argue that Believing in Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h is also part of being a Muslim however we must understand that it is he who has told that do not believe on any dieties except Allah, you agree to him, you believe him. simple, specifics come later on.

Idiots are found everywhere, surely Muslims have more share of them than others as they have less of education but i believe things are changing and definitely going towards good. Tolerance is the key to being a good Muslim and an intolerant man is not a good Muslim, he is not a role model i would suggest but an example.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh…

Dear Singh and Mazhar Saheb belonging to Bazm-e-Samajhdaar

One told me I am lost and others tells me otherwise. So I decided to address you jointly. :slight_smile:

Mera faith hai insaaniyat aur main ek insaan… always in love with myself.

Aham Brahmasmi (Sanskrit)…I am God…that’s what ancient scriptures tell and I strongly believe in that. And that’s my dharma. Much older than Buddhism, Christianity or Islam.

I am an Aryan..now don’t get confused here with the crap Aryan Invasion Theory propagated by European historians which states that they came from Europe and were fair complexioned and had bright blue eyes and had blue blood gushing in their veins!!. Many modern day Pakistanis claim in their blogs that they are direct descendents of Kemal Ata Turk!!

‘Arya’ is a Sanskrit word which means a person with noble character..means a good human being.

Aa no bhadra kratyo yantu vishwatah (let noble thoughts come to us from all directions..the arya philosophy…ancient sanskrit texts say this.). Because my thoughts control my actions and hence my actions determine the type of society.

It is not a race, not a caste and not a community. Anybody whose conduct is ethical, moral and upright is an Arya irrespective of his caste, creed or colour of skin.

In fact people from Indian sub-continent moved to various parts of the world millennia ago before the return of the natives started and this happened even before the advent of Buddhism..second oldest religion but basically an offshoot of Hinduism or Sanatan Dharma. (I will address this topic separately).

Large scale destruction of the entire society in this part of the world started around 900 AD when hoardes of Mughal invaders came hurtling & tumbling down and wiping civilisations enroute.. cut, kill, loot and annihilate…that was the philosophy. Prior to that it was Alexander ‘The Great”. If you loot then you are great!

Afghanistan* was Gaandhaar…a flourishing predominantly Buddhist society completely destroyed……downfall **continues even today….today it is Talibanised….Thanks to Americans, Russians and ISI. *

Russians are out, while Mush and Bush will continue to push Taliban back to their holes and thus keep paying the price for creating a Frankenstein…remember Osama..the hate preacher. If they are in they have a problem and if they are out then catastrophe.. and poor Karzai on a pendulum. It goes without saying..as you sow so shall you reap.

*Back to Mughal invasion…most of the present day Pakistanis take pride in being descendents of Ghazni and Ghauri. Little do they realise that Muslims in this part of the world are basically converts..consequences of either forced or voluntary conversions. (I have already addressed this in a separate post). *

Inspite of being under Mughal Rule, India did not become an Islamic state because of Rajput warriors who left no stone unturned in stopping large scale conversions.

There is no heaven or hell…my conduct determines the environment around me..i.e. I can choose whether to live in heaven or hell (Jannat or Jahannum).

I visit all the religious places and fold hands in front of sanctum sanctorum. I visit a temple and chant hymns..been to churches and have attended prayers…been to gurudwaras and have listened to sabad-kirtan. I am also a devotee of Sai baba…a muslim fakir descarded by muslims but has millions of non-muslim devotees. I also listen to the hymns in praise of lord Buddha once a week…..does that make me a Buddhist?.

You guys must me wondering why all this when quick short cuts are available to meet God who is just a click away ….not because I am lost but because I am a curious character and that’s what my religion sanatan dharma tells me to explore, explore and explore while staying away from cookie cutter ideology but adhering to the ancient wisdom.

When I talk about Hinduism I don’t refer to what is being followed today…It is much older…read the paras in the beginning of this post.

What did lord Budhha say…jaise vichar, vaise karm..jaise karm vaisa yug.
(Your thoughts decide your actions and your actions decide the type of society you are in)..any disagreements ??

Please read this in conjunction with the definition of the word Arya. Ancient Hindu wisdom..much before Lord Buddha gave these teachings.

Modern terminology by western philosophers…

Context determines the behaviour of an individual and collective behaviour determines the type of society. Change the context and everything changes. Good context means good outcome..bad context means catastrophe.

When Prophet Mohammed or his followers preached to kill the infidels (please correct me if I am wrong)…that became the context for followers and resulted in a collective behaviour expressed in cut, kill, loot, annihilate and scoot. Ghazni, Ghauri, Khilji and ilk of them. Pope Benedict XVI was probably right when he stated that Prophet Mohammed or his followers brought violence and intolerance. Result of his ill timed statement was for everybody to see. Fuses blowing out in rapid succession. Is this what Islam teaches ? The word islam means peace and today we find peace in pieces!!

Mughal dynasty in India…destroyed all the centres of learning whether Taxila or Nalanda..nothing was spared. What did they really contribute to the society except for destruction of temples and conversion of some of them into mausoleums.

Islam doesn’t believe in glorifying death and contrary to it these rulers constructed maqbaras..basically conversion of temples into mausoleums. (Saudi king/prince who died last year was buried in an unmarked grave!!)

Sounds unbelievable…visit Taj Mahal and take a closer look at walls and interiors. You will find Om and lotus symbols!.

Old records never talk anything about Taj Mahal being constructed during the rule of Shahjahan!! Cock and bull stories we find in history books.

Almost all the Mughal rulers were illiterates and never created any centres of learning. Father kills son or brother kills son or slaves take power that was the Mughal Rule..why do muslims in present India and Pakistan have difficulty in accepting this reality.

Inside the mosque…what is the context..more or less the same…hate others…out come these pious souls and there starts the Friday Fury..a common scene these days in various parts of the world.

Ever seen devotees coming out of the temples, churches or gurudwaras and b*****shing tridents, crosses and swords ? Religious distortions although are rife.

*Who was Jesus ? Please read the book..Jesus lived in India by Holger Kirsten a German researcher on Christiainty. Bible does not explain two phases of his life..one when he was in a marriageable age and other after his crucification..He survived the ordeal because it was planned like that. I have read this book several times and fairly convinced with what is written! *

*Visit a Buddhist monastry in Ladakh and you will find references of Jesus’s visit . He was inspired by Buddha, was a heftily built yogi the book claims and was a reincarnation of Buddha. *

Recincarnation doesn’t mean that a person dies and is born as a clone few hundred years later. It means that a person who has the qualities and the potential to good to a society as his predecessor.

*What is being taught in the name of Christianity is Paulinism…what is preached by the Popes and not what Jesus stood for. I have discussed this subject with my Christian friends who tend to agree with this but won’t raise their voice. A Russian who started this work in late 19th century mysteriously vanished..probably **Vatican *was offended!.

Hatred towards non-muslims…if that is the thought…it results in same action and that determines the society.

So what is my Dharma…Sanatana..an open mind and curiosity and tolerance towards all.

One of my good friends in Pakistan…a devout muslim and a history buff once told me once….I agree with you that we muslims when in majority create problems for minorities and when in minority we create nuisance for the society.

It is nothing but context..don’t tolerate others. Do you agree that’s precisely the scene in Pakistan?. Hindus, Christians, Mohajirs or Ahmediyas et al… where do they fit in context of societal development ?

Janaab mere purkhon ne Mughalon ki aur Angrezon ki taang achchi tarah se todi hai…No surprises a tiny Himachal did not become an islamic state and for that matter whole of India but for the resistance offered by rajput warriors as said earlier. But what is the point in digging old wounds. Let’s look forward.

You suggested a short cut.. skip temple, gurudwaras or church and land straight into the lap of God.

I give the shortest..Aham Brahmasmi..I am God..why to search him outside when it is within me..I don’t even need an external catalyst!!.

Be arya and you create heaven (swarg or Jannat) become anarya and you create (nark or Jahannum).

Need I say more to create some more shore :balley: .

Regards,

Dharmender Singh Pathania

NB : All Sikhs are Singhs but all Singhs are not Sikhs. Singh means a person belonging to warrior clan. Basically a metaphor of Lion or Sher

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

I appreciate your thoughts Pathania, is this pathania from pathans? like irfan pathan.

Well Tolerance is the key to being a good Muslim as per my definition, but you know the problem is that no body has a copy right over religion and you can distort it as much as you like.

What pope said was definitely wrong but what muslims said was even more wrong. That was a bait which Muslims accepted like the cartoon controversy. Voice your strong opinion but no riots etc, Muslims have their fair share of zealots like RSS and evangelists.

Musilms are allowed only to take up weapons against an oppressor, and if he surrenders no killing etc etc. If Mughals did that i don't care and neither do i think my history starts with Mughals or Qasim. Few people do but most are so busy in their hectic life routines that they do not have to time to think.

By the way i never said that you are lost!!!!

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Janaab

Pathania's are basically from Pathankot in Punjab. The term 'pathania' came into existence when Tanwar king of Delhi defeated the Mughal Ruler of Pathankot and captured the fort about 800 years back. So to mark this occasion this particular Tanwar clan came to be known as Pathania clan. Tanwars are basically Rajputs from Rajasthan.

Somebody raised a point about casteism. Casteism we see in India in present form is no doubt atrocious it is a clear case of distortion. But unfortunately it is the most misunderstood and misrepresented aspect of society.

Casteism (is a new term introduced Brits) means chatur varna...four colours..(not red white blue or orange) but categories of tasks.

Classification of people according to the work always exists in our minds but in Ancient India a science was made out of it. i.e. four broad categories. The distortion started when one caste started exercising supremacy over the other and got associated with inheritance and gradually led to a completely chaotic situation and now a completely political issue.

India is quite big janaab....17 languages which have a script and close to 1500 languages which don't have a script and thousands of dialects. To see and know India one should be willing to travel across the length and breadth of the country.

One can easily see cultural variation almost every hundred kilometres. In India apart from Hindus we have Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Parsis, Jews, Chinese, Tibetans, Armenians, Bourbons-descendent of a French Royal family, African tribes..native tribes as well as descedents of slaves brought in by Portuguese from Mozambique, lost tribes of Israel..some of them have started going back to Israel (you probably know that any person who can prove that he/she is a Jew is eligible for Isaraeli citizenship) , tens of native tribes, descendents of Gypsy tribe which originated in Northwest part of India and parts of present day Pakistan and spread all over Europe and several communities which believe in their own tribal gods..nothing to do with any religion. In North-East there are several communities which don't have any religion and not even a tribal god but they celebrate almost all the festivals.

I am from North but live in South India.. a culturally completely different society. Food is different, language is different, rituals are different, names of people are different, architecture is different.

India is a myriad of cultures..to know all of it one has to see all of it.

Don't jump to conclusions by watching a handful of Bollywood movies or some TV serials.

regards

DS Pathania

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

pathania

All you have written above is good history, however i do not understand that i never said any thing about casteism and size of India etc etc. i never jumped to any conclusion by watching Indian movies (if you are referring me as there is no one else posting on this topic)

what is interesting that you may be celebrating the defeat of Moghul ruler 800 years back and someone else must be celebrating their victory. We really see the history from our narrow slits.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

No, No...I am not celebrating history..You wanted to know about Pathania's and I explained how this clan came into existence.

People have been choosing surnames based on events or names of cities. I know some people in India have a surname 'Lahori' or 'Peshawari' irrespective of their religion.

Makhmoor Dehlvi, Hullad Moradabadi, Jigar Moradabadi, Josh Maleehabadi, Soorma Bhopali, Hasrat Jaipuri, Kamal Amrohi, ....Lucknowi, ....Gondvi, Shakil Badayuni, Naksh Layalpuri, Sahir Ludhianvi, Gohar Kanpuri et al... all these poets selected names based on the cities/towns they lived in and loved very much.

Basically it is a matter of personal choice.

I know you didn't raise the issue of casteism or bollywood movies (which show only a bit of India)...but I have addressed these issues because what I am writing is basically keeping in view a wider audience which probably need to know a lot more about its neighbour and look at the things from a different perspective. Internet does provide such uniques opportunities for dialogue and is basically a tight slap on the face of people who always believed in lives of secrecy.

One should know history as much as possible. It basically broadens one's perspective without really being a victim of wrongs committed in the past and seeking to settle scores..at least that's not what I wish to subscribe to.

Hope I have clarified my viewpoint :)

regards

DS Pathania

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

sure you have now but the tone and wording of the last post seemed otherwise.

I do not say that you are celebrating history, what i meant somewhere up the chain sombody choose to do so, on our side as well must be. I mean you choose Mughal's defeat while may some one here choose their victory day. a matter of perspective, how you see the things.

However i believe that Mughals were neither as good as celebrated by us and not as bad as bad as you were portraying. somewhere between them, Just another dynasty in the long list, neither anyone before did anything neither did they. Nor your rajputs had some broader vision about the development nor did moghuls. every one was fighting his day to day battles. as simple as that. just like of today. we will never change in subcontinent.

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Without disapproving DSP's opinion broadly, I'll tend to agree broadly with what MKF said. I am an Indian btw...broadly :).

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Mere bhai logo,

I believe in looking at the things from multiple perspectives. Why Why Why ...that's me. There are no personal attacks here.

I am not saying that I know world history like the back of my hand but keep on looking for opportunities for enriching it inspite of shortage of time. At the same time I won't put forth something without doing a thorough homework. That's possible when one can shed rigid mindset and is open for learning about others.

Regarding Mughal Dynasty..I have used the term..."almost all the Mughals" not "all the Mughals"...there is a lot of difference between the two.

I have seen a filthy 'blog' run by www dot paknews dot org a few years back. It showcased the sick mindedness of people from both sides. When I wrote a letter to the editor to stop that crap there was no response. I decided not be a member of that.

I became a member of this forum because few of the posts I found were in fact interesting and thought of adding my perspective to them.

Now please enlighten me..why non-muslims are not qualified to enter Mecca ? Was this a decree from Prophet Mohammed ? or somebody down the line decided to impose it ?

Any religion basically advocates inclusivity..don't you think so ?.

There are many temples in India where muslims won't enter or won't be allowed and I don't like that.

Few months back as an outsider, I attended a baptism ceremony in a Church. What was my interest....curiosity and learn about others.

regards

DSPathania

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Re: I was talking to a Sikh........

Well pathania i will have to really search for the reason as why non Muslims are not allowed in Mecca. May be i or you can initiate a new post. i frankly have heard this but do not know the history behind it. Can any one help us by citing few references from Quran aur Hadith.

I appreciate that you decided not to be a member of that forum, i similarly wanted to be a member of bharat-rakshak but seeing the bias by the members i thought that i would only boil my blood, nothing else.

I wish that this Gup Shup forum can become a real gentlemen's forum where no offensive language is used against any one else. That is why i admonished chintu bhopali that day that most of the Indians i have come across since i left Pakistan are extremely level headed and would you believe we make the best of friends. I think the rational people on both sides need to voice their opinions a bit forcefully, we have been hijecked by vocal bigots.