I invite Sher

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Insulting one's religion and beliefs isn't a way of learning.
[/quote]
How much different have you been from him as far as insuling religion/individual is concern. And show me a single please where you have asked him not to insult your faith.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I was only showing you some respect. If your not wise, ok, then your not.
[/quote]
I can sense the repect you have shown me : )

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: **
You should know better.
[/quote]
What I thought was better I chose it for me. I wanted you to 'suggest' incase you didnt understand. And how come you ignor point number **2 in your reply? Please read closely.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
That's upto you.
[/quote]
Since it was a hypothetical statement from you. I chose not to do anything.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Thats' not my problem. Neither I need to prove myself to you brother.
[/quote]
You see you should have a problem. As a Muslim we should reffer to the orignal revelations the Quran & Sunnah. I can show you many books with fabricated hadiths. The book you are quoting might contain some. So please check for the source. If not for me for your own sake. You see you might be recomending to people which might not be a true hadith. If you are doing so, you are committing a sin.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: **
No one is complaining?? Will that do??
[/QUOTE]
I complain justify now.
**2- see my brother its not about pleasing people It is about pleasing our lord. If s'thing I'm doing is inappropriate in the eyes of 'sharia' do inform me with authentic hadith [dont quote the book which you have been doing]. Otherwise I dont care about the people complaining.
Suppose if the people complain about my beared. Should I shave it off?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: * BUT Brother,,, thing is, it is all that Quran itself says therefore can not be taken as a proof for it to be true.
[/QUOTE]

Read the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, it is more accepted by Muslims than of any other scholar, only because his is the easiest to understand.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: * See, Since people find inconsistancies in the book itself and doubt it to be God's word.
[/QUOTE]

Which people?
Do you not accept there are enemies of Islam out there?
A Qur'an was also written by a Jew. 'M Marmaduke Pickthal'. He wrote it in English only just to decieve the Muslims and can be bought from shops. He did not himself accept Islam but went around preaching Muslims Islam. Why did he tell others something what's not good for himself?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: * Honestly there are loads of questions need answered and if you like we can continue this for as long as you want as long as your approach remains fair and you don't feel offended.
[/QUOTE]

Carry on. My whole life is based on Islam.

And oh brother Sher.... it took me 24 years to understand Islam properly. Before that I just had doubts after doubts about the belief... but i'm not a person who likes to follow something with doubts, so I study Islam day and night and Allah Almighty finally bestowed me some light.

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You see if you have a doubt in the authenticity of the Quran let us talk about that first. Because you quote things from Quran want me to explain when I do you say the Quran itself is doubtful. What makes you say that. Put things down one by one. I will inshaAllah deal with them as said earlier. But since you change the topic so often we cant stick to the first basic point.

Dont accuse Allah [swt] or Muhammad [s]. You have other questions bring them one by one. I wont feel offended.
Let us first decide what we will be disscussing first. What you want to be clear in your mind first. Then ask questions regarding to that perticular point as many as you would like to ask. I really want to share things with you.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Do you not accept there are enemies of Islam out there?
A Qur'an was also written by a Jew. 'M Marmaduke Pickthal'. He wrote it in English only just to decieve the Muslims and can be bought from shops. He did not himself accept Islam but went around preaching Muslims Islam. Why did he tell others something what's not good for himself?
[/quote]
How do you get to know all this?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Carry on. My whole life is based on Islam.
[/quote]
I'm sorry I've a very poor understanding but I thought he was trying to address me. : )

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
And oh brother Sher.... it took me 24 years to understand Islam properly.
[/quote]
Is this the reason why you quote the 'What Happens After Death? By Maullana Aashiq Illahi' all the time.

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by stupid idiot: *
**This is clear in the incidents recorded in the Sahih of the Bukhari, (part 3, p. 223, and part 8, p. 91). The Bukhari says,*
Reconfirm.
Please deal with one topic at a time. It would be easier for me.
[/QUOTE]

Brother sher can you please do this for me?

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I think you should listen to:
How I Came to Islam By Abdur Rahim Green.
I just want you to listen to it. Not trying to influence or anything.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *
How much different have you been from him as far as insuling religion/individual is concern.
[/QUOTE]

Have I called him 'blind' like he has to me and my Muslim brothers in many of the topics. Please look at my posts with 'Chalna'.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * And show me a single please where you have asked him not to insult your faith.
[/QUOTE]

As above in the topics in this 'Religion' section.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * I can sense the repect you have shown me : )
[/QUOTE]

I do not have any intentions to insult you to my knowledge. However if you have been offended by any of my mesages, please forgive me and I ask Allah Almighty to also forgive me.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * What I thought was better I chose it for me.
[/QUOTE]

That's your right and you have made your choice.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * I wanted you to 'suggest' incase you didnt understand.
[/QUOTE]

I saw your nick name in the category of the absurd words, like swearing or genitals of a person.
You can call yourself 'Pakistani' if you liked. But I will not impose any duties onto you and nor I will ask you to do so. Your happy, so i'm happy. So I will not bite your ass any longer.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by stupid idiot: * And how come you ignor point number **2* in your reply? Please read closely.
[/QUOTE]

Forgive me for ignoring point 2 earlier. I do not have that book on me, a newly Haji borrowed it off me and i've not got it back yet, that's why I couldn't give you that specific referrence.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * Since it was a hypothetical statement from you. I chose not to do anything.
[/QUOTE]

Ok. Thank God atleast one thing has been cleared.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * You see you should have a problem.
[/QUOTE]

No. I love peace nad tranquility. If people are not following whatever they don't want to, that's upto them. Allah Almighty will judge everyone individually.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * As a Muslim we should reffer to the orignal revelations the Quran & Sunnah.
[/QUOTE]

That's a good thought. But sometimes, I get lazy. Because I've not memorised the Qur'an or any of the Hadiths, i struggle to keep going back to the orginal source because I find it time consuming. But your right, it would be alot better if I had a referrence with everything that I say regarding Islam.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * I can show you many books with fabricated hadiths.
[/QUOTE]

No need brother. I trust your statements. From what I gather from your advice to Sher, you do have alot of knowledge about Islam.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * The book you are quoting might contain some.
[/QUOTE]

Can easily be done and i've heard in some books that false Hadiths have been invented. (However, majority of the time, it feels that people have used 'dhaeef (weak)' Hadiths instead of inventing a whole new one). But God knows best.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * So please check for the source.
[/QUOTE]

I'll try brother.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * If not for me for your own sake. You see you might be recomending to people which might not be a true hadith. If you are doing so, you are committing a sin.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I don't want to go to Hell for spreading false Hadiths.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * I complain justify now.
[/QUOTE]

Yes. Like you i'm also stubborn so it's your word against mine.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by stupid idiot: * **2-* see my brother its not about pleasing people It is about pleasing our lord.
[/QUOTE]

That's the true meaning of life.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * If s'thing I'm doing is inappropriate in the eyes of 'sharia' do inform me with authentic hadith [dont quote the book which you have been doing]. Otherwise I dont care about the people complaining.
[/QUOTE]

I'll try my best, but like I said above, I can get lazy at times.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * Suppose if the people complain about my beared. Should I shave it off?
[/QUOTE]

Oh no, for God's sakes no. I don't shave my beared off despite people have complained. We can't be dancing on people's wishes. You have your rights and I have mine.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * How do you get to know all this?
[/QUOTE]

I read it in a book 'The Devils Deception' by Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips or I read it in a book called 'Pharaon's Legacy - How Islamophbia came to the west' by Yaseen Ahmed. The author was warning about being decieved by fabricated Islamic texts.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * I'm sorry I've a very poor understanding but I thought he was trying to address me. : )
[/QUOTE]

Sorry to interfere in this discussion. He is and he was addressing you. This is an interesting topic, can I also answer questions to which I feel I have answers to, despite even if he's not addressing me?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *Is this the reason why you quote the 'What Happens After Death? By Maullana Aashiq Illahi' all the time.
[/QUOTE]

I have about 30 books at home and at work, mainly on the Al-Ghaib (Unseen) subject. And this is one of the best books that I read which gave each answer with an authentic source.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Have I called him 'blind' like he has to me my Muslim brothers in many of the topics. Please look at my posts with 'Chalna'.
[/quote]
: ), just because you have not called him blind doesnt mean you didnt have a rude attitude towards him in past.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
As above in the topics in this 'Religion' section.
[/quote]
Please quote.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I do not have any intentions to insult you to my knowledge. However if you have been offended by any of my mesages, please forgive me and I ask Allah Almighty to also forgive me.
[/quote]
The right of human are to be forgiven by humans.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
That's your right and you have made your choice.
[/quote]
I didnt know that, thankyou for informing me.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I saw your nick name in the category of the absurd words, like swearing or genitals of a person.
[/quote]

Who made these catagories?
btw what were you trying to find in the category of 'absurd words like swearing or genitals of a person'?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
You can call yourself 'Pakistani' if you liked.
[/quote]
I'm not a Pakistani neither do I call my self one. : )

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
But I will not impose any duties onto you and nor I will ask you to do so. Your happy, so i'm happy. So I will not bite your ass any longer.
[/quote]

You speach depicts your family. What kind of a person would use 'ass' in his conversation with a person who he claims to respect?
And you should not have bite earlier.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Forgive me for ignoring point 2 earlier. I do not have that book on me, a newly Haji borrowed it off me and i've not got it back yet, that's why I couldn't give you that specific referrence.
[/quote]
I can wait if you want me to but do give me the exact refference.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
No. I love peace nad tranquility. If people are not following whatever they don't want to, that's upto them. Allah Almighty will judge everyone individually.
[/quote]
And suppose if s'one is sharing the fabricated hadith with his muslim brothers and sisters then what? You stay quite?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
That's a good thought. But sometimes, I get lazy. Because I've not memorised the Qur'an or any of the Hadiths, i struggle to keep going back to the orginal source because I find it time consuming. But your right, it would be alot better if I had a referrence with everything that I say regarding Islam.
[/quote]
I understand the laziness, but then you should not be posting things which you are not certain about.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Can easily be done and i've heard in some books that false Hadiths have been invented. (However, majority of the time, it feels that people have used 'dhaeef (weak)' Hadiths instead of inventing a whole new one). But God knows best.
[/quote]
So is 'dhaeef' enough for you to act upon?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I'll try brother.
[/quote]
May Allah [swt] give you strength to do so. Jaza-k-Allah.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Yes, I don't want to go to Hell for spreading false Hadiths.
[/quote]
May Allah [swt] have his mercy and may you not do this sin in future.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Yes. Like you i'm also stubborn so it's your word against mine.
[/quote]
: ) is that the only justification you can bring my friend.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I'll try my best, but like I said above, I can get lazy at times.
[/quote]
Take your time my friend be do bring s'thing s'day.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Oh no, for God's sakes no. I don't shave my beared off despite people have complained. We can't be dancing on people's wishes. You have your rights and I have mine.
[/QUOTE]
Then why should I change my nick just becuase people complain you should not just because people dont complain?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I read it in a book 'The Devils Deception' by Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips or I read it in a book called 'Pharaon's Legacy - How Islamophbia came to the west' by Yaseen Ahmed. The author was warning about being decieved by fabricated Islamic texts.
[/quote]
Can you please confirm the book the chapter and I would be delighted if you can also tell me the page number as well. I never came across anything like this. And I've seen at many places the translation of pickthal.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Sorry to interfere in this discussion. He is and he was addressing you. This is an interesting topic, can I also answer questions to which I feel I have answers to, despite even if he's not addressing me?
[/quote]
I request you again not to reply. I would be glad if you accept my request.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I have about 30 books at home and at work, mainly on the Al-Ghaib (Unseen) subject. And this is one of the best books that I read which gave each answer with an authentic source.
[/QUOTE]
Dont you have Bukhari or Muslim. Btw if you are so sure about the authenticity of the sources then please bring the orignal sources here. The author of this book must have got the things either from the Quran or some books of the Sunnah [hadith]

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Brother Sher Let us talk about the authenticity of the Quran first of all.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher

When was I rude to him? I was offended so I let him know.

Look for it yourself.

Ok.

Ok.

Life is about good and bad.

Category isn’t there, but one can imagine. What I mean is, that, what your nick represents, usually is an insult to someone.

Whatever. If you wnat another suggestion, then call yourself, maybe ‘Godd Muslim’ instead of ‘Stupid Idiot’.

I didn’t get that bit!

It’s not a swear word, it’s more like saying ‘Stupid Idiot’. My intention was to get a response of you by using a word which belonged to one of those ‘categories’ as we were talking about it before and obviously, you felt the weight of the word.

Sorry, it didn’t hurt too much did it.

If your that desparate, you can always get the book from here… Simply Islam

Offcourse not, it’s your right to launch a full scale Jihad if you like.

I thought I was certain, but i’ve met alot of disapproval from yourself brother.

I don’t know. Is it? Not everything that the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was recorded, so who knows, all them people who we see as wrong might be right. But Allah Almighty knows best.

Thanks

Then again, I could be right and you could wrong.. we’ll leave it to God to judge us. I’ll see you on the Day of the Judgement near to one of the 2 springs allocated to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). We’ll be notified then in our scrolls who was right and who was wrong.

Yes. Is it enough!

I don’t know what your talking about there brother.

Yours looked bad to everyone, but I had only one complaint and that was only from you. But you don’t have to, ok! Forget what I said. You can keep what’s yours and i’ll stay out of your buisness… ok!

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * Can you please confirm the book the chapter and I would be delighted if you can also tell me the page number as well. I never came across anything like this. And I've seen at many places the translation of pickthal.
[/QUOTE]

I shall tell you the same books again. But i'm not going to go read whole of the books just to find one sentence for you. I read it in a book 'The Devils Deception' by Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips or I read it in a book called 'Pharaon's Legacy - How Islamophbia came to the West' by Yaseen Ahmed. The author was warning about being decieved by fabricated Islamic texts. Or it could had been in the book 'Dajjal the AntiChrist' by Abu Ameena Bilal Philips.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * I request you again not to reply. I would be glad if you accept my request.
[/QUOTE]

Ok.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * Dont you have Bukhari or Muslim.
[/QUOTE]

No, not yet. Let me read some certain books on a certain subject first which I love to read about and then Inshallah, i'll get the Hadiths too.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: * Btw if you are so sure about the authenticity of the sources then please bring the orignal sources here. The author of this book must have got the things either from the Quran or some books of the Sunnah [hadith]
[/QUOTE]

Most (not all) of the books i've read, they usually just says, Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, Ahmed etc. They don't give the exact reference number. Like at the moment i'm reading a book called 'The Spectacle of Death', it hardly gives any referrences at all. All it says who narrated such and a such Hadith and in who's books it can be found in.

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aslamualikum ......BRO "stupididiot" i dont see the point why you are ostracizing bro PD??? (i bet sher is laughing at you 2)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by HILAL K: *aslamualikum ......BRO "stupididiot" i dont see the point why you are ostracizing bro PD??? (i bet sher is laughing at you 2)
[/QUOTE]

Nope, we're enjoying our conversation. I'm not here to preach Sher... I'm just taking part without permission because I feel strongly about some issues.

Sher is a Muslim, I respect him. It's upto him whether he wants to discuss the deep questions and answers of Islam with Brother 'Stupid Idiot' or not.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *

Nope, we're enjoying our conversation. I'm not here to preach Sher... I'm just taking part without permission because I feel strongly about some issues.

Sher is a Muslim, I respect him. It's upto him whether he wants to discuss the deep questions and answers of Islam with Brother 'Stupid Idiot' or not.
[/QUOTE]

PakiDragon, I did not mean to break the rule by replying to anyone other than StupidIdiot since it is HIS thread and he asked people not to interfere. But I do have simplest question for you.
According to Muslims bible is the word of God as well which came down from God directly. why would then God send Quran which clashes with Bible? considering both of books are word of God.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher

I did and did not find a place where you told him to ‘a single where you have asked him not to insult your faith.’ I’m now developin this feeling that to prove your point you wont even hesitate to lie.

You reply did not answer my question. I asked “Who made these catagories?”. If you dont have the answer say so.
As far as your comment “life is about good or bad”. I ask you more questions. Who decides what is good and what is bad? And what are the decisions based upon?
Please try to answer the question. Normally you dont specificlly reply the question.

You see your and my inagination does not has to be the same. You imagine things in your way I do them in mine.

I chose it for my self. I dont care what it usually represents. You can call me by this name I dont mind at all. If my insult is all you were and are worried about dont be.

I have a doubt if I’m a Good Muslim. And my question is Why dont you call yourself a good muslim rather than “PakistaniDragon”?

Not your fault I’ve a poor english. I appologise.

I dont like the people who play with words. However since you have chose to do that chose what you mean and I’ll respond and we will see what you intended to do. By using word ]Ass you meant?
My friend you chose the word and we will talk about that. Lets see what is happening here.

I requested:
1- I request all the Muslim brothers and sisters to let Sher and I have a debate on this.
2- Incase you didnt realise I requested all the other members of the forum to let Sher & I speak in this thread.
3- I request you again not to reply. I would be glad if you accept my request.
By ignorin my request you did hurt me. No appologies. And dont run away now. I want you to reply this time and please answer the question rather than passin remarks on the question.

No desparation, take your time and let me know of the source.

I didnt ask what my rights are please develop a habbit of answerin the question, specifically. It would be easier for me.

I’ve not personality dislikeness against any human. The point is the book you are quotin does not satisfy my standards of authentication. Stick to the books of Sunnah[authentic hadiths only] and Quran. My disapproval is not for disapproval it to make sure what you qoted is correct. Provide refference that is all I ask.

So in 24 years you never were sure about this.

Who told you this?

Surely Allah knows the best. But you see those who see it as wrong see it becuase it has no evidence in Quran or Sunnah. However, these books do mention the oposite of what they say is right. Make your decion whome do you want to follow?

I’ll base my sayings on Quran and Sunnah. If you think these books have error then we can debate about their authenticity.

I look forward to that day. May Allah[swt] has mercy.

No this is not enough. I had told you earlier and I say again justlfy your nick in refference to the hadith which you qouoted:
“Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the Hadiths said, when the soul is taken to the first Heaven from the body in the grave, the Angels on the way greet him by all the good names he was called with while alive. (Book - What Happens After Death)”

My appologies for poor english.

My friend I’ve made my point clear before and I say again with more elabration. I look at things for Islamic view point if there is anything wron with my nick in accordance to the Quran & Sunnah please do inform me.
When I didnt had beared no one ever said to me that I should have it. Now when I have it some of my friends thing I looked smarter with no beared and they ‘complain’ that I should not have a beared.
But since I look at things from Islamic prespective I dont care who is complaining unless I’m doing s’thing wron in Islamic prespective. Hope I made my self clear this time.

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Are you sure it is 'man and demon?

What do you say about denying three request of a Muslim brother?

You are generally very helpful I admire that. You pass statements and when asked about the source you are normally not sure and ask people to find it themself that is quite an i nteresting approach. I’ll look for it brother worry not but what if I dont find it in the mentioned books? do you have another list to follow?

So how do you make sure the hadith you read is actually present in the said books?

Give me the exact translation of the hadiths and tell me which book is it from. I’ll try to look into it. It is very easy to find them.

I dont happen to agree with everything he says that is why I do so. Nothing personal

Gentlemen dont laugh at other. You should correct yourself about how one would be ‘thinkin/doing/sayin’ about other.

I think he was addressing me. Why do you always have to reply on my behalf?
Best of luck with the question asked by SHER.

I just want to tell you Sher if you ever think I can be any help regarding this topic and question do not hesitate to ask me.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *

Nope, we're enjoying our conversation. I'm not here to preach Sher... I'm just taking part without permission because I feel strongly about some issues.

Sher is a Muslim, I respect him. It's upto him whether he wants to discuss the deep questions and answers of Islam with Brother 'Stupid Idiot' or not.
[/QUOTE]

sher,muslim>>hahahaha..such muslims should be kick out of islam....i think this thread is useless beac sher will not at all agree to wht eva we people would tell me...really al qaeda should also aware of black sheeps in muslims and strike muslims like sher etc

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by chalna: *

sher,muslim>>hahahaha..such muslims should be kick out of islam....i think this thread is useless beac sher will not at all agree to wht eva we people would tell me...really al qaeda should also aware of black sheeps in muslims and strike muslims like sher etc
[/QUOTE]

I wasn't gonna reply to your post but anyway,,,, Are you saying that Islam is the only way of life? Well in practice it seems that Islam is not preaching peace but war. It calls the faithful to wage wars against the unbelievers, kill them and subdue them until Islam become the only religion in the world. Islam is not a religion that could allow diversity of thoughts and beliefs. It demands conformity and exerts control over the thought of its subjects. Any deviation is punished by death. All dictatorships are harmful but religious dictatorship is the worst of all. All political doctrines, whether leftist or rightist, once proven false, are abandoned, but religious fallacies endure, because they are believed to be from God and therefore infallible. “The heaven and Earth can pass but the word of God won’t” says the Bible. Rational people are willing to accept its irrationality and philosophers endeavor to rationalize and legitimize them for intellectuals' consumption. But lies are lies, no matter how elaborated they are and how long they have survived. General acceptance of a lie, dose not make it truth, nor universal rejection of truth would eclipse its splendor.