Thanks chalna and pd
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *
Thanks chalna and pd
[/QUOTE]
Keep it up Mate..... Don't worry about the distractions.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
Keep it up Mate..... Don't worry about the distractions.
[/QUOTE]
In this case can we hear the next query from you.
Appreciate if you provide the sources if these are not original comments.
Thanks
Source: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9d.htm
procrastinator, like i said, Sher is little more than a copy-and-paste charlatan...
Again source my friend:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/BehindVeil/btv7.html
My friend we will be more than happy to help you out if you have some original comments/worries about the existence of God or the truthfulness of Islam. You can spend ages just searching the internet for false propaganda about islam and then putting it forward as a concern. This way you will always be starting from the opposite end of the spectrum and never will be able to find the right answer. I suggest that you start from a middle path and first research and decide on the existence of God and then delve into why or why not Islam.
In a similar fashion I can start searching the internet for what’s wrong with newton’s model of gravity. As I am a layman, I will not be able to figure out the right answer myself and will rely on the person purporting that theory and will fall into the trap of believing him/her unless somebody provides me a contrary answer to that.
If you really are genuinely interested in finding answers to your questions then I suggest that you contact a learned scholar who might be able to alleviate your suspicions/confusions.
Re: I invite Sher
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by stupid idiot: *
I've seen brother **Sher* having so much quries about Islam. I invite him to this thread to talk about all of them one by one. You see the problem is that I find your question very scatered in the various threads.
All I want is that you put all your question in this thread and we deal with them one by one [on topic at a time].
But before the debate you'll have to give your introduction. I would like to know your religious and social background.
Muslim Brothers & Sisters
I request all the Muslim brothers and sisters to let Sher and I have a debate on this. I would really like all the brothers and sister help me with it in my PMs. Becase you see when we make alot of replies it makes the debate go off-topic. I respect the intention of all the muslim brothers and sisters.
I dont have much knowledge of Islam but all I want is that Sher should be answered. Dont think of me as an arrogant man who is proud of what he knows. Pray for me. I know Allah [swt] will give me strength and wisdom to depict islam in a proper way.
Surely Allah [swt] knows best.
[/QUOTE]
I am extremely sorry SI for intervening in your thread, but I just wanted to clarify things a little bit about their originality, so that you can continue your good work of addressing Sher's concerns.
I apologize again if I might have offended you by doing this
Re: Re: I invite Sher
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by procrastinator: *
I am extremely sorry SI for intervening in your thread, but I just wanted to clarify things a little bit about their originality, so that you can continue your good work of addressing Sher's concerns.
I apologize again if I might have offended you by doing this
[/QUOTE]
Mate, Point is not where the question originaly come from, the point is that they are valid questions. I am interested in knowing the answers to these questions. these questions are not new, they are not asked first time by the person you found on that site, in fact the questions were there 100s of years ago and still looking for answers and that confirms the validity of these questions even more. It seems that you are more interested in finding out where the questions originally came from instead of answering them well mate, then you are wasting time. you are talking about authenticity of religion and God and there are people who doubt even in the existance of God let alone religion. I mean, if you continue here, I can show you the veses in Quran which are contradictory. And I can get you some Hadiths which contradict Quran and common sense. so the point is, it doesn't matter who originally put out these questions instead try and answer it.
Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
Mate, Point is not where the question originaly come from, the point is that they are valid questions. I am interested in knowing the answers to these questions. these questions are not new, they are not asked first time by the person you found on that site, in fact the questions were there 100s of years ago and still looking for answers and that confirms the validity of these questions even more. It seems that you are more interested in finding out where the questions originally came from instead of answering them well mate, then you are wasting time. you are talking about authenticity of religion and God and there are people who doubt even in the existance of God let alone religion. I mean, if you continue here, I can show you the veses in Quran which are contradictory. And I can get you some Hadiths which contradict Quran and common sense. so the point is, it doesn't matter who originally put out these questions instead try and answer it.
[/QUOTE]
My friend, it's a very important point for me to know where the questions originally come from. It's because most of my friends who come up with all these questions aren't thinking through their own head but seeing the issues from somebody else's eyes. It's like you put words into someone else's mouth. Now when you start thinking on your own then you have a better and unprejudiced/unbiased chance of reaching the truth.
But then again who is to decide if it really is important to know the source or not? Our common sense I guess... hmm.. but our common senses clash here then who gets to arbitrate? Who sets the rules for solving our dilemma. It's a cul-de-sac! Now if in such small issues we can't agree on something then how can the whole population of the world agree on a common set of laws to live their life by?
Ahh the common sense, but I believe more than 90% of the population of the world is theist. Hmm.. lets see if everything really depended on common sense then I am sure either 90% of the world which is theist lacks common sense or the other minority?
As for the existence of God... I am extremely interested in learning about the non-existence of God. I am just a beginner in the study of philosophy and science. Kindly enlighten me as to why should I believe that a God does NOT exist? How did this world come into being? How will it end? What happens after one dies? When will the world end? I would like to know what you think about these issues? I have others as well, but lets stick to the basics first, shall we?
Now I personally think even if I can't reach a conclusion to prove the existence/non-existence of God I am safer being a believer than a non-believer. If there is no God then apparently both theists and atheists are safe.. But, my friend if there is a God and there is a life after death then I don't loose anything by being a believer. But on the other hand being an atheist I loose all hope after this life ends and am in for a 'BIG surprise'. Or maybe I shouldn't call it a surprise as I already know in this world about the concept of God. And common sense tells me to be safe rather than sorry.
NB. It took me about 0.47 seconds (thanks to Google) to find out the source of your articles. and I am pretty sure you will agree with me it wasn't a big waste of time :)
Cheers.
Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher
Ohh and one more thing my friend.
When we want to know about a disease we have, we go to a qualified doctor. When we want to understand a difficult concept in phyiscs we go to a physician/teacher. Point is when we want to understand something we go to those who know. Similarly when one has doubt in faith one goes to a scholar. When I had doubts in my faith and religion and my purpose of existence, I went to a scholar and alleviate my pain and confusions he did (May Allah(swt) bless him for his efforts). I hope you will follow suit and contact a reliable scholar who will be able to help you out, that is if you are truly in search for the truth. I am sure there is an abundance of scholars in the UK.
I can guide to some good sites/resources.
Also you can post your questions/queries by email to many distinguished scholars. You can go to the site
The sholars associated with this site are excellent.
Good luck with your quest.
Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
Mate, Point is not where the question originaly come from, the point is that they are valid questions. I am interested in knowing the answers to these questions. these questions are not new, they are not asked first time by the person you found on that site, in fact the questions were there 100s of years ago and still looking for answers....
[/quote]
These question had been answered trillion times before and if you manged to locate such question on the internet you should be wise enought to locate the answers as well. I've told you earlier the problem I personally think with you is that you believe any thing you hear against islam. Really interested to know the answers, tell me what have you done so far to find them?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
... and that confirms the validity of these questions even more...
[/quote]
That is what I expected least from you, least. I mean just becuase the questions has been asked again and again, that confims the valadity, even though the have proper answers to them.
Disappointed to know that.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
It seems that you are more interested in finding out where the questions originally came from instead of answering them well mate, then you are wasting time.
[/quote]
HOw many times have I requested you to tell me the source where you are getting all the question from. And if you read carefully almost all my request say that I want to know the source becuase it would put me in better position to reply to them. You see the questions you had been asking many times earlier were the questions raised by the missionaries.
As they seen to be valid to you tell me how many 'muslims' do you know of who left Islam because these questions were valid. And since you are good in using internet, try to find how many missionaries left thier religion for islam. Let me help you with one name Yusuf Esstes
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
you are talking about authenticity of religion and God and there are people who doubt even in the existance of God let alone religion. I mean, if you continue here, I can show you the veses in Quran which are contradictory.
[/quote]
Be my guest. I would be more than happy to reply to the false allegations against Quran.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
And I can get you some Hadiths which contradict Quran and common sense. so the point is, it doesn't matter who originally put out these questions instead try and answer it.
[/QUOTE]
I can show you many fabricated Hadiths. And alot of other stuff too. My brother there is a science of 'Asool ul Hadith' which has to be known to check if the hadith is correct of a fabricated one. So the hadiths you are reffereing to were they all declared authentic?
Re: Re: Re: Re: I invite Sher
This Hadith seems to show the hypocricy in Islam at higher level, if it is true. How can Muhammad be so cunning and use deceptive language to lure people to his side.
Bukhari V. 4, B 52, N 72
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)."
Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba: Our Prophet told us about the message of our Lord that "Whoever amongst us is killed will go to Paradise." Umar asked the Prophet, "Is it not true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and their's (i.e. those of the Pagan's) will go to the (Hell) fire?" The Prophet said, "Yes."
Well, it realy is confusing, init?
Point one you must take these Hadiths alone with all the other tradions and the verses from the Quran which deal with the topics of mujahid.
Point two what is confusin you
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: * ... A Qur'an was also written by a Jew. 'M Marmaduke Pickthal'. He wrote it in English only just to decieve the Muslims and can be bought from shops. He did not himself accept Islam but went around preaching Muslims Islam. Why did he tell others something what's not good for himself?
[/QUOTE]
I have re-checked my sources on request and is completely wrong what I said about Marmaduke Pickthall. I'm sorry, I got him mixed up with someone else. Marmaduke Pickthall is a highly respected Scholar and his translation of the Qur'an into English is one of the most popular book in the world, so please ignore my earlier accusations about him.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: * I read it in a book 'The Devils Deception' by Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips or I read it in a book called 'Pharaon's Legacy - How Islamophbia came to the west' by Yaseen Ahmed. The author was warning about being decieved by fabricated Islamic texts.
[/QUOTE]
I'll post the same message here well which I quoted to another message so no one has been misled...
I have re-checked my sources on request and is completely wrong what I said about Marmaduke Pickthall. I'm sorry, I got him mixed up with someone else. Marmaduke Pickthall is a highly respected Scholar and his translation of the Qur'an into English is one of the most popular book in the world, so please ignore my earlier accusations about him.
In the book 'Ibn Al-Jawzee's The Devil's Deception' by 'Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips', on it's introduction page, it says that anti-Islamic & dodgy companies publish Marmaduke's famous Qur'anic translations to get popularity.
My Apologies.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *
Can you please confirm the book the chapter and I would be delighted if you can also tell me the page number as well. I never came across anything like this. And I've seen at many places the translation of pickthal.
[/QUOTE]
I got it wrong about Marmaduke Pickthall. There's nothing wrong with his writings.
In the book 'Ibn Al-Jawzee's The Devil's Deception' by 'Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips', on it's introduction page, it says that anti-Islamic & dodgy companies publish Marmaduke's famous Qur'anic translations to get popularity.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: * I shall tell you the same books again. But i'm not going to go read whole of the books just to find one sentence for you. I read it in a book 'The Devils Deception' by Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips or I read it in a book called 'Pharaon's Legacy - How Islamophbia came to the West' by Yaseen Ahmed. The author was warning about being decieved by fabricated Islamic texts. Or it could had been in the book 'Dajjal the AntiChrist' by Abu Ameena Bilal Philips.
[/QUOTE]
Nothing wrong with Marmaduke Pickthall's Translation of the Qur'an. I re-read the books and your were right. He is well known and heavily respected person in the Islamic field. So ignore my comments accusing him of telling lies.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *
PakiDragon, I did not mean to break the rule by replying to anyone other than StupidIdiot since it is HIS thread and he asked people not to interfere. But I do have simplest question for you.
According to Muslims bible is the word of God as well which came down from God directly. why would then God send Quran which clashes with Bible? considering both of books are word of God.
[/QUOTE]
Nope, you are totally wrong bro.
I've just read a powerful book called 'Jesus, Prophet of Islam' by 'Ahmed Thomson'. It uses over 200 sources from Christian historical books, some back as early as the 1600s.
The Bible as we know it today is not the Bible mentioned in the Qur'an. The Qur'an mentions 'Injil' but the word Bible is a Greek word meaning 'books or library of books'
Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was not a Greek but he was Hebrew. He only came for the Hebrews to correct their Torah. However he didn't speak the Hebrew language but he spoke in 'Aramaic' and Aramiac is a dialect of the Arabic language.
The Aramaic language was not practiced as a written language. So the 'Injil' was revealed to Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) only in his heart, from which he could draw out any knowledge he wanted whenever he wanted. There is no such thing as the 'Gospels of the Jesus' in existence today and nobody knows if one ever existed in the Aramain language.
The Bible as we know it then and now is nowhere near the equivalent to the Qur'an or it has ever been. The Bible is more like the Hadiths. I mean by that is, that, it was written by four people who never even met Prophet Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) between 60 AD to 100 AD. It's a collection of 4 Gospels.
Originally there were hundereds and hundereds of Gospels until 325 AD when at the Council of Nicea all of them were outlawed except four of them which were used by the 'Trinitarian Church' and preffered by the then Pagan Emperor, 'Constantine' (later became a Uitarian Christian).
After this Council of Nicea anyone who had any other Gospels apart from Mark, Mathew, Luke & John was killed and his/her Gospel burnt. Millions of people were wiped out and 'Churches of Martyrs' were erected all over the Unitarian Christian world.
This went on throught the 'Mediaevil Inquiseition, 30 Year War (in Europe) and until the Spanish Inquistion was abolished in the early 1800s (after 3 centuries).
Please remember, that the main reason why Islam spread so fast just after the Arab Pagans became Muslims was because the people in North Africa, Eastern & Western Europe & in the Western Asia were all Unitarian Christians. Million & millions of these people were killed because they had Gospels which did not confirm the Trinity but instead told, Jesus only came for the Hebrews and also mentioned the Coming of the Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
I hope this will shed some light on it. Vast majority of the Christians are not even aware that there once existed 100s of Gospels and some of which are still saved at the Vatican's 25 mile library for the official use only.
I strongly recommend 'Jesus, Prophet of Islam by Ahmed Thomson' who ever wants more knowledge and then ask the Christians about the graphic information that the book contains. (They will not be able to answer you, from my my own personal experience but will agree to everything.)
Mistical_miss and others of course, it is a fact that we all cringe when we think of pedophilia and acknowledge that it is a shameful act of immorality. But during the time of Muhammad, and even today in some Islamic countries, marrying a 9-year-old child was not immoral. In fact Ayesha was given to Muhammad with the consent of her parents and no one raised an eyebrow. The question is, if sleeping with a nine year old child was not deemed bad and therefore was not considered immoral, was it ok? Not everything that a society accepts as moral is right. Having sex with a minor may not have been immoral for Arabs 1400 years ago, but it is now, as it was then, unethical. Moralities are defined by circumstances, but ethics transcend time and space. They are rooted in logics. Morality can vary from culture to culture, from time to time and from person to person. Who is to determine what is moral and what is not? “
Having sex with a minor may not have been immoral for Muhammad and his contemporaries in that uncivilized culture, but it was ethically wrong. If Muhammad was a messenger of God or an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical.
Although it is true that in the past people married at very young age. And it is also true that occasionally wealthy old men married very young girls. We have to realize that these people acted on their culture. We do not condemn them for they did not know better. What they did was the norm. But we do condemn those cultures.
However, we cannot forgive with the same amnesty those who claimed to be the standard of rectitude amongst mankind. If average people could not distinguish the right from the wrong, the messengers of God, if they were from God, should have known better. If their claim was true, if their knowledge was divine, if they were inspired, they should not have followed the tradition of their people but should have set the example. Muhammad followed the morality of his people. But that morality was ethically wrong. He claimed to be the best human and the last messenger of God. According to him God has said to people all he wanted to say in Quran and his religion is complete. There is no more guidance to come and his examples and his teachings are all we need to know and follow for eternity. Yet what he did and said, under the light of modern values prove to be very wrong.
Now we realize that we cannot live by his examples any more, nor can we practice his teachings. Our morality has changed. We would certainly put a man in jail if he wanted to follow the Sunnah of the prophet in this day and age and "marry" a 9-year-old child. We would not allow someone to take people as slaves, trade in slavery or have them as Muhammad did.