Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
I think it is also a status symbol among Pakistanis.
Pakistanis who grew up in the west are looked highly upon than kids who grew up in Pakistan.
I know whenever I go back to Pakistan, I got rishtas thrown at me left right and center. :)
Ergh.
Guys like you make us ABCDs look bad.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Okay, so you've picked up just this one point I mentioned about the media becoming crap in a decade and you not only ignored my other reasons, you also called it "bashing". And yes people have been "bashing" West too but you didn't notice that and yes they are most welcomed to bash West.
We shouldn't be so sensitive and blind about our patriotism, just because some people can see those problems doesn't mean they are bashing their country.
**I myself have criticized the Western countries more than I have criticized Pakistan or other muslim countries because I don't take sides and I call a spade a spade.
** The tv shows etc might not be a big problem as compared to other serious problems but I see it as a part of other serious problems like corruption etc. We have utterly corrupt people in our media and it was never the case 10 years ago. People living in Pakistan probably haven't detected that but when you're outside you have a different angle of looking at things.
Just because I live in Britain doesn't make me any less Pakistani from those who are living there right now...and I have a complete right to talk about the problems and talk about my concerns as I have considered moving there several times but I know I'd be more even more isolated in pak than anywhere else in the world because of shutting everyone down and living in a gated security area.
Btw, my post may sound a bit harsh but I'm only clarifying my position.
Hareem Baji,
The reason i picked up this point was because i felt the remaining points had been catered to by others. In my view, this seems to be a very trivial reason for not living at a place i.e. seems like just another point to add to the list. We all know there are really horrible channels to watch in the west, porn is freely shown on some channels too ... but what do we do? or what can we do? We can easily hide those channels we don't want our kids to be watching. This i think can be done in Pakistan as well. So to me it didn't seem like a point that couldn't easily be dealt with and sounded more like a point to bash Pakistan, may be i was wrong in taking it that way.
We all know there are problems here in Pakistan & there are problems abroad as well .. problems of different kinds but we all have the option of dealing with them or escaping them. Thus, the generalizations are disturbing ... disturbing because of the fact that you are all Pakistanis and that is how you perceive us all here or the country just makes us feel bad. Its a mere generalization that every other girl watches Sahir Lodhi's show or her sister's ... those who do make so much fun of them that its obvious how much they are disliked. I am sure your own face book account would show videos & statuses of how much he and his likes are disliked here.
The point is that it is one's personal preference to live where they want and they may have a set of reasons for it but some reasons just don't seem reasonable because they seem to be a limited scope view e.g. I see a Pakistani Muslim in US drinking, i start believing that ALLLLLLLL Pakistani Muslims abroad drink. That would be an unreasonable statement to make. On the same lines we here in Pakistan are taking such points as generalizations because most of us, our families, our friends, our social circles are not of this sort and thus to us its stereo typing.
I hope you know what i mean ..
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Niks, there isn't a word in your post that I disagree with or I think differently about and even if I did I would've changed my mind by now because you are one of the influential guppies who I always look up to.
However, this isn't what I was on about. I have not once blindly defended the country's flaws, the politicians, the authorities. I said in my very first post that thats all bitter but true. Patriotism isn't about blind loyalty, it is about recognising the flaws and doing something about them. So in that sense we are all more patriotic than the residents of Pakistan who are not always willing to face the truth.
I don't blame you and others for not understanding exactly what I was trying to say because I have been vague on purpose. If I was to elaborate what is it that disappointed me, I would've had to quote some posts, engage in arguments and write lengthy explainations for which I didn't have the time nor the energy. May be some other time I'll let my dil ki bharas out. I could write paragraphs right now that I can't sleep after sehri but I don't think anyone cares. So I'll just stay chup.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
You dont have to live in **** holes like upton park, ilford etc to remain intouch with Muslim communities. Islam is not walled behind areas and locations. You can live anywhere in the world and practice Islam. In my opinion if you stay away from these so called muslim communities you are better off.
The most depressing days of my life i spend in eastham. I went to a top uni in London and when i would tell my mates that i am living in eastham they would laugh at me. Every single day when i would see the desi kids in eastham and upton park i would say to myself its better to send kids to Rawanda or Congo but to this crap place.
I would prefer raising kids in some posh area of pak and teach them everything instead raising them in some **** hole of manchester, bradford or london :)
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
**mercenary2k
Those days gone when risthas will be thrown at you right left centre here there if you live outside pak.
Nowadays what happens.
the 1st question which is asked Munda rehndaa taay uk which hai per kerda kii haai
Things have changed in last few years. I dont think a Grade 22 officer govt of Pak would like to marry his daughter with a cabbie from newyork init :)**
Re: I don’t want my kids growing up in Pakistan…
A prime example of discrimination - location issues! :k:
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
**mercenary2k
Those days gone when risthas will be thrown at you right left centre here there if you live outside pak. Nowadays what happens.
the 1st question which is asked Munda rehndaa taay uk which hai per kerda kii haai
Things have changed in last few years. I dont think a Grade 22 officer govt of Pak would like to marry his daughter with a cabbie from newyork init :)**
Perhaps that shows the age of that poster. ;)
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Hareem Baji, The reason i picked up this point was because i felt the remaining points had been catered to by others. In my view, this seems to be a very trivial reason for not living at a place i.e. seems like just another point to add to the list. We all know there are really horrible channels to watch in the west, porn is freely shown on some channels too ... but what do we do? or what can we do? We can easily hide those channels we don't want our kids to be watching. This i think can be done in Pakistan as well. So to me it didn't seem like a point that couldn't easily be dealt with and sounded more like a point to bash Pakistan, may be i was wrong in taking it that way.
We all know there are problems here in Pakistan & there are problems abroad as well .. problems of different kinds but we all have the option of dealing with them or escaping them. Thus, the generalizations are disturbing ... disturbing because of the fact that you are all Pakistanis and that is how you perceive us all here or the country just makes us feel bad. Its a mere generalization that every other girl watches Sahir Lodhi's show or her sister's ... those who do make so much fun of them that its obvious how much they are disliked. I am sure your own face book account would show videos & statuses of how much he and his likes are disliked here.
The point is that it is one's personal preference to live where they want and they may have a set of reasons for it but some reasons just don't seem reasonable because they seem to be a limited scope view e.g. I see a Pakistani Muslim in US drinking, i start believing that ALLLLLLLL Pakistani Muslims abroad drink. That would be an unreasonable statement to make. On the same lines we here in Pakistan are taking such points as generalizations because most of us, our families, our friends, our social circles are not of this sort and thus to us its stereo typing.
I hope you know what i mean ..
You're right. My point was that Pakistani as a muslim country is supposed to have better morals structure than a non-muslim country but I don't see that, it's as bad as Britain or America or may be worse so no point to take my kids there.
Re: I don’t want my kids growing up in Pakistan…
When was the last time you went to Pak? 10 years ago?
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Since we have a very good education system in Pakistan - as claimed by many posters - would any one be kind enough to tell me that exact number of International students , we get in a year ?
to be honest I firmly believe that our education up till bachelors is pretty good and offers a wide variety of subjects to major in too.. at the masters level and especially with regards to medicine and postgraduation one should go abroad to iacquire it from there as the medical training system in Pakistan is still very primitive. And the reason is that we have the same old professors from KE/nishter etc teaching us who are used to the same old way of teaching that worked about 25-30 years ago. The rest who do go abroad for their MDs and FRCP FRCS hardly come back.
I can't quote an exact number of internatoinal students we get each year. But I know there are quite a few number of people from Saudi Arabia, Oman, China etc. Obviously the number isnt vast..and there are numerous reasons as to why it isn't ...that would be another debate altogether :)
As for the pakistani students who opt for international universities are the following *mostly *(not all obviously):
Re: I don’t want my kids growing up in Pakistan…
Last time I went was December 2003. I think I landed in Pakistan the day Saddam Hussein was captured.
But finally I am going again this December. On the way there going to stop in Rome, Italy and attend Christmas Mass at the Vatican. 
Re: I don’t want my kids growing up in Pakistan…
Salam.
Folks living outside of Pakistan have created their own networks there, networks that help them feel home/desified. I as a Pakistani would feel proud, nothing less. Some things don’t agree with you, fine. You’ve changed, fine. You kinda like it there? Good on you/Happy for you sister.
But a few points i’d respectfully wish to disagree with. I see generalizations again, you see Pakistanis as the ones who’re trying to enforce their views on to others, you think they think you hate Pakistan, and you think we’re trying to convince people to come back. Untrue.
This debate was never about whats better, this side of the pond or that. Basically It was about raising your kids out of Pakistan. And if thats what you want, I repeat theres no argument, its your ultimate right/choice as a parent. Just don’t go around blaming Pakistan for not being good enough, because when it comes to being good enough, it IS good enough.
If a kid who attended a local school in Pakistan can go and scoop out 3-4 oscars in consecutive years, then why are not the educational institutions that deserve to be considered good enough, good enough?
One example out of many.
So you have corruption in Pakistan?
You have drug/alcohol abuses in the west, racism/discrimination. no? I can go on youtube and link you to several videos where a Muslim is being treated unfairly in the west. On the contrary, could you link me up with half as much videos where Christians are being treated unfairly, in Pakistan.
Someone said, I would not go shopping alone in Karachi considering the insecurity situation. So would you be comfortable going shopping alone in a country where every 7th female is raped?
“Other thing I fear, they won’t have any sense of respecting other religious beliefs and cultures. I want them to visit Pakistan often but staying there forever is a no no. Oh and also there are very few libraries in Pakistan, in fact, no libraries for children.”
Defence Library, Creek club, Country club. You’ll find 3 fully equipped libraries within a 2 mile radius in Karachi. The 1st point is however an opinion and definitely not mine.
Another said, his cousin believes in Pakistan. If you hit someone on the road, you continue to hit them till they’re killed. Lol, this cracks me up everytime, sorry Hareem01.
Yo. However, lowering a country with absolute false accusations. Not very socio-economic development for a starting point.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
I don't know about the US, but they would not get into a good University in the UK with those grades either.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
I don't know about the US, but they would not get into a good University in the UK with those grades either.
yes exactly... most of them end up getting into the B grade unis which are nowhere near the top in the world ranking. But for the people in Pakistan the answer 'bahir perh raha hai' intimidates the ones who don't know much.
Saying this from personal experience.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Last time I went was December 2003. I think I landed in Pakistan the day Saddam Hussein was captured.
But finally I am going again this December. On the way there going to stop in Rome, Italy and attend Christmas Mass at the Vatican. :)
haww bechara! zyada armaan le k naa aana, things have changed ALOT and for the better :p.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
our pride in being Pakistani
Cliché my Lord - cliché ....
In this holy month of Ramadan - during last 40 hours - 47 people have been killed in Karachi and over 70 are injured ....
Today I have to go through a walk in security gate to enter in our mosque , is this for my forefathers have created Pakistan ?
we still have relatives in India - and some how their mosques are much safer then ours .... so one can say ' there are much safer in karbala and we are getting shot for nothing in Madina '
Koi Taza Aalam na dik'la' Ay
AnaY walay Khushi se dartey hain
Logh Ab moaTh se nahi darte
LogH ab Zindagiii se darte haiN
I am sorry to say but I am losing my pride ....
That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight, I'm
Losing my pride with my religion
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Since we have a very good education system in Pakistan - as claimed by many posters - would any one be kind enough to tell me that exact number of International students , we get in a year ?
I don't understand how can people forget different factors when they start comparing 2 things. No one is even thinking here that unlike students who live in UK/US/CAN/AUS already have access to those high-class universities and they can pay for them since they are in the very society which gives them enough financial support. Unlike Pakistan.
If number of students studying in international universities is some "ultimate" factor for you then would you consider Saudia as some really "educated" country who gives full financial support to every other student. At least 10% of international students here in Canada are saudi .. or even more and i know their capabilities. Any student who goes to UET/PU is far better than them but Pakistani students don't have that opportunity.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Salam.
Folks living outside of Pakistan have created their own networks there, networks that help them feel home/desified. I as a Pakistani would feel proud, nothing less. Some things don't agree with you, fine. You've changed, fine. You kinda like it there? Good on you/Happy for you sister.
But a few points i'd respectfully wish to disagree with. I see generalizations again, you see Pakistanis as the ones who're trying to enforce their views on to others, you think they think you hate Pakistan, and you think we're trying to convince people to come back. Untrue.
This debate was never about whats better, this side of the pond or that. Basically It was about raising your kids out of Pakistan. And if thats what you want, I repeat theres no argument, its your ultimate right/choice as a parent. Just don't go around blaming Pakistan for not being good enough, because when it comes to being good enough, it IS good enough.
If a kid who attended a local school in Pakistan can go and scoop out 3-4 oscars in consecutive years, then why are not the educational institutions that deserve to be considered good enough, good enough?
One example out of many.
So you have corruption in Pakistan? You have drug/alcohol abuses in the west, racism/discrimination. no? I can go on youtube and link you to several videos where a Muslim is being treated unfairly in the west. On the contrary, **could you link me up with half as much videos where Christians are being treated unfairly, in Pakistan.
**Someone said, I would not go shopping alone in Karachi considering the insecurity situation. **So would you be comfortable going shopping alone in a country where every 7th female is raped?
**"Other thing I fear, they won't have any sense of respecting other religious beliefs and cultures. I want them to visit Pakistan often but staying there forever is a no no. Oh and also there are very few libraries in Pakistan, in fact, no libraries for children."
Defence Library, Creek club, Country club. You'll find 3 fully equipped libraries within a 2 mile radius in Karachi. The 1st point is however an opinion and definitely not mine.
Another said, his cousin believes in Pakistan. If you hit someone on the road, you continue to hit them till they're killed. Lol, this cracks me up everytime, sorry Hareem01.
- Yo. However, lowering a country with absolute false accusations. Not very socio-economic development for a starting point. :)
I hope you are not talking about the U.S. Because that does not happen here. yes, we have racist folks here but your statistics are way off.
For the first point in bold, are you seriously comparing how Christians are treated in Pakistan with how muslims are treated in the west? have you been here? You have laws that discriminate against other religious minorities, are you kidding me? When was the last time you heard people killing Muslims here? Pakistan ki to baat hi choro! wahan to sab hi mar rahe hain..They set automobiles and tires on fire in scorching heat because they are protesting. Seriously? lol..
For the second point in bold, the definition of rape here is very different. A woman just has to say no for an intercouse to be considered rape. Pakistan main to aatay jatay marketon main larkiyon ko cherte rehte hain... sexual harrassment jesi to koi soch hi nahi hai wahan ke logon main. Aur wese bhi how many rapes are actually reported in Pakistan? Not many and do you know why? Please check your Hudood Ordinance laws.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Salam.
Folks living outside of Pakistan have created their own networks there, networks that help them feel home/desified. I as a Pakistani would feel proud, nothing less. Some things don't agree with you, fine. You've changed, fine. You kinda like it there? Good on you/Happy for you sister.
But a few points i'd respectfully wish to disagree with. I see generalizations again, you see Pakistanis as the ones who're trying to enforce their views on to others, you think they think you hate Pakistan, and you think we're trying to convince people to come back. Untrue.
This debate was never about whats better, this side of the pond or that. Basically It was about raising your kids out of Pakistan. And if thats what you want, I repeat theres no argument, its your ultimate right/choice as a parent. Just don't go around blaming Pakistan for not being good enough, because when it comes to being good enough, it IS good enough.
If a kid who attended a local school in Pakistan can go and scoop out 3-4 oscars in consecutive years, then why are not the educational institutions that deserve to be considered good enough, good enough?
One example out of many.
So you have corruption in Pakistan? You have drug/alcohol abuses in the west, racism/discrimination. no? I can go on youtube and link you to several videos where a Muslim is being treated unfairly in the west. On the contrary, could you link me up with half as much videos where Christians are being treated unfairly, in Pakistan.
Someone said, I would not go shopping alone in Karachi considering the insecurity situation. So would you be comfortable going shopping alone in a country where every 7th female is raped?
"Other thing I fear, they won't have any sense of respecting other religious beliefs and cultures. I want them to visit Pakistan often but staying there forever is a no no. Oh and also there are very few libraries in Pakistan, in fact, no libraries for children."
Defence Library, Creek club, Country club. You'll find 3 fully equipped libraries within a 2 mile radius in Karachi. The 1st point is however an opinion and definitely not mine.
Another said, his cousin believes in Pakistan. If you hit someone on the road, you continue to hit them till they're killed. Lol, this cracks me up everytime, sorry Hareem01.
- Yo. However, lowering a country with absolute false accusations. Not very socio-economic development for a starting point. :)
Walekumasalam.
Allah hum sab ko hidayat dey. Too drained to reply.
Re: I don't want my kids growing up in Pakistan...
Acha chalo I'll reply but I'm avoiding a tu tu mein mein kind of debate.
Well great about the person getting all those Oscars, but then we do have people of Veena Malik fame who go to the next door neighbors and totally mess up Pakistan's image. So if we have one star, we have as many little bomshells as well. So let's not get into comparing stuff like that. Let's stick to the basics...Basics such as food prices, cost of good schools, extracurricular activities for the children. How does an average family afford all that without being frustrated? It's not like we've lost all connecting with Pakistan; we still have relatives there who complain how hard it is to live a single day when you don't have electricity, good medical care for the common man, fake medicines, etc etc... I'm talking about day to day stuff. So then why would I knowingly give up my lifestyle here where my children are being raised with stability? People back home have learned to deal with all of that. Most of the time they don't have options.
And about muslims being treated unfairly here. AGain, personal experience. 20 years of living in this country, not one day have I felt disciminated. Im sure stuff happens but not on a day to day level...yes hate crimes happen, but again they are temporary reactions to some event.
I guess it's all a perspective.