Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
^ you came to pick up some olive skinned young boys…didn;t you? 
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Dear Guppies,
I found gupshup circa 9/11'ish.
I think I wanted to find answers to the 9/11 tradgedy.
I thought that maybe if I read alot of editorials and personal opinions from around the world I could at least come to some kind of understanding of the causes behind the tradgedy.
Having no real knowledge of Islam and having never even met a muslim I wanted to try and gain perspective about the so-called "Islamist" evil enemy of American ideals responsible for the attack.
Being introduced to the idea of "Islamists" I think I would have to admit to having prejudice against Muslims intially...even though my values and ideals tell me that stero-typing a group people is unfair and wrong.
Because of ^ I know I have been quilty of posting comments that were often argumentative, accusatory and probobly offensive.
I like to hope that I have overcome making snap replies.
Today I find myself visiting gupshup to get to know muslims rather than learning Islam.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Yes Ravage that is true, and I stand by it. He was cheering the deaths of american troops, bashing America in every post, and claiming some sort of special insight because his father is a diplomat. If he had been been a white freckle faced Irish kid I would have been tempted to take him down a rung for being a snot. Read the direct quotes from CM himself, and attempt to understand why he was ready to take a fall.
I think the whole CM follies in an indicator of how “fashionable” it has become to condemn the US. One is certainly entitled to ones views, but the internet has remarkably bad information readily available, and gullible people or people of ill will have flooded cyberspace with bad information, and bald propaganda. Furthermore, schools apparently no longer teach investigative skills and independent thinking.
After years, years of spouting Anti-American posts, with not a single positive post about America, he then wishes to work for America. Huh? I could not pass up the moment, as the hypocracy was beyond belief! Despite a number of people who said that he is just a dreamy kid, he needed to learn that public pronouncements are part of who you are.
but, my public condemnations of CM have nothing to do with his Muslim-ness, just my view of his hypocracy and lack of integrity.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
see, you are only person that I've seen here whos personalized issues to the extent of defending cancelling the tuition funding of unrelated pakistani students based on posts made on this forum, and threatening other posters with the same. you are the only person who has carried debates beyond the WA forum into real life, and into the CM thread. reminds me of that crackpot's case in NY who tracked down and attacked a person from a bulletin board. very unhealthy tendency.. but atleast his attack was on target. defending victimizing other pakistanis as 'blowback' is just.. sad.
you may express views repugnant to Ira and me, but as you say, healthy debate is often passionate.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Are there new rules against personalizing issues Mr Mod? There's nothing wrong with being passionate when it comes to defending one's country from individuals who persistently attack it, and OG (unlike myself) is always respectful and polite.
Why don't you stick to moderating and quit picking fights. OG would probably just put you in your place anyway.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
BTW, does anyone else find this particular comment amusing?
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Ravage, views change, that is the natural outcome of dialog. I must admit that because of Gupshup my views have changed.
In the case of student funding, you have the story somewhat wrong. My wife SHOWED the words posted on Gupshup to her coworkers. Those coworkers were appalled by the cavalier attitudes, and the anti-american feelings, and the lack of understanding of how universities are funded, and the blessings they had been given. Kids on Gupshup were a real eyeopener for them! But they made their own decisions. They were as shocked and appalled as I was. My reaction to the dialog was mainstream, not radical. Now somehow it is OK to protest, and march in the streets, but activism take many forms. If I write a bunch of letters demanding more accountability on scholarship money to foreign students, then that is my right. As a large contributor to a number of Universities, I can get perople to listen. Thank you Gupshup for opening my eyes.
As far as CM, please do yourself a favor and read the snide comments regarding the deaths of American troops. I live in a community that is almost 1/3 military, or military contractors. I know a lot of those people, and they truely beleive that they will help the people of Iraq. It is not oil, nor Bush, nor neocons nor global hegemony. They are willing to risk their lives to free Iraqis. They are at their core, brave and honorable. You are welcome to disagree. Now, could CM honorably represent them? Would he by virtue of having a european education, and a foreign diplomat dad be able to honorably represent America when he mocks American combat deaths? Excuse me while I puke. So do I want CM to get a job with the American foreign service? I really would rather see a more honorable citizen get that job, and be paid that American tax money. His words proved that he had no loyalty to America, only total self interest. A common theme with the rude kids and their scholarship money.
Rest assured that I am able to discern the virtual world, from the real world. And from time to time I like to tweak folks just to see them twitch. But words do count. And thankless selfish know-it-all kids perhaps should be raised better by thier Pakistani elders.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
OG, maybe you should be upset at reading how strongly I feel about your writings because it certainly does upset me reading your views. :) There is a difference between confrontation and hate, yes , but judging from your posts i t seems you have made up your mind about hating "us" in general ( i use the term pretty loosely although i am an Pakistani-American Muslim myself). I am not judging you from one post or what you describe as a passionate debate: its a series of posts. I will repeat it one more time, you are no different to me than CM when he says its ok if American troops get killed since they deserve it (i am judging thats what he said frm your posts, i didnt actually read what he said). You say the same stuff but only in nicer words. Fortunately or unfortunately I dont have the time to go around and dig your old posts to quote around here but I think ravage did a pretty good job of summing some things you have said in the past. No matter what you say, you are not going to change my views, and neither am I going to change yours. So I better not say more than I have already said. Dont forget, I have seen both sides of the picture, not just yours or of some guppies around here. Heck, I was in the US military myself. My heart bleeds for American troops and thier families as much as it does for the innocent Muslims being killed. You mourn for the Americans too but who is there to listen to woes and cries of so many innocent Muslims being killed? You should also think abt that sometime.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Ira, you were in the US military? Wow, I didn't know that.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
"Dont forget, I have seen both sides of the picture, not just yours or of some guppies around here. Heck, I was in the US military myself. My heart bleeds for American troops and thier families as much as it does for the innocent Muslims being killed. You mourn for the Americans too but who is there to listen to woes and cries of so many innocent Muslims being killed? You should also think abt that sometime."
Ira, if indeed that is your backround, then your words do have far more credibility than some. Your comments are duely noted.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Yes MehnazQ, I was enlisted in the USAirforce for 3.5 yrs.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
^ was that pre-9/11 or post-9/11 ?
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Im sorry, there is no way you can compare denying funds to a pakistani student unrelated to the posts your wife showed to the university workers, to marching on the streets. the latter is expression of opinion, the former is simply victimization based on the views of a person of the same ethicity. furthermore, in that thread you defended the denial of funds as ‘blowback’. bear in mind that the moment your expression is directed at causing someone specific material harm, it isnt really ‘speech’ anymore. its a protest if they’re waving signs, it isnt if they’re hurling rocks.
i dont care about cm or what his specific case is. its just that you putting your debaters hat on everytime someone derides you for hate mongering, and then taking it off when dealing with CM is a little hypocritical too.
see this? how petty.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
A ** Pakistani female ** in the US airforce? I am truely impressed. 
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
I came to GS to learn about Pakistani culture. Nuff said.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Although, in my defence, it makes more sense than coming to a Paki webpage to learn about Islam. At least its more relavent.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
^ Yeah at least you are being honest. Those who claim that they came to Gupshup (e.g OG and Stu) to know Islam I never see them on the religion forum. They hangout only on General or World affairs to spread that right wing I love America propaganda.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Ravage,
"Im sorry, there is no way you can compare denying funds to a pakistani student unrelated to the posts your wife showed to the university workers, to marching on the streets. the latter is expression of opinion, the former is simply victimization based on the views of a person of the same ethicity. furthermore, in that thread you defended the denial of funds as 'blowback'. bear in mind that the moment your expression is directed at causing someone specific material harm,"
Once again to correct the facts. The "fund" was not specifically for Pakistani students, it was for "foreign" students. As a result of posts in Gupshup, many funds were placed into a "General" scholarship fund. What caused most of that change? Apparently there was a quote saying (and I paraphrase here) "What do I owe the United States? Zip, Zilch, Nada." Now you show a quote like that to Americans whose sole goal life is to collect funds to build a University, and to educate students, and it does not take ME to conclude that some portion of the students studying here are ingrates, and that money is better spent on kids who would have some thanks for the effort. Sorry buddy, foreign students have no "right" to American Universities. But Americans view this as "giving", and there is no requirement that they give to you. After that incident, I shifted my personal gift from the general scholarship fund that would have been available to anyone, to the "Hispanic" scholarship fund. Any problem with that? I did not hurl rocks. I acted. So bite me.
My point is that these are very public boards. What Muslim and Pakisitani people say is available to everyone. It will form impressions. Most of the time when we have "anti-american" garbage being thown around, Pakistanis who live in the US sit on their hands. They do not lift a finger to remind young impetuous minds that the US does a lot of good in the world too. Why? It is taboo. A Muslim that does not fall into line with US hating will quickly be labeled Kafir, and slapped back into line. Finally you have grown tired of me, so you are excersicing the same logic. If I do not agree with you, I must be a hate mongering racist. Sorry, that type of name calling does not hold the same type of sway....
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
bottom line OG, you defend the deprivation of a student's funding based not on his merit, which he would have otherwise been qualified for, but based on the views of some other person on a talkboard this student probably never heard of. personally i dont depend on any philanthropy for my education, and so i dont give a flying eff what you feel you can do to threaten people who disagree with you, im only pointing out that you're the one acting petty over a public bulletin board.
now one more thing, for all your big talk about combating anti americanism on these forums, you should realise that you are doing a very good job of achieving the exact opposite i.e. formenting it. if i gave your views any credibility as representative of anything other than just you, i would like americans a lot, lot, less.
but see, not everyone has trouble keeping debates exactly that: debates.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
I enlisted way before 9/11 but because of the contract couldnt get out until after the Iraqi war.
MehnazQ,for some folks its a big deal and to be honest it used to be for me too. But judging from the treatment I am given by those I worked with (not all ofcourse, but very very few, who were racist) and from the Pakistani folks on this forum , I have a feeling I will be recieving jootas from both sides 