Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
So you mean that we at www.gupistan.com are hijacking planes or kidnapping and beheading tourists? That’s a typical rightwing redneck mentality. You and your other gora buddies like OG, mv, storch, semi and UTD came here on GS right after 9/11 not to learn ‘about’ Islam but to release your hate and anger over Muslims. Your above post is a clear proof of this.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
^ good point Smith. I knew there was more to you than the computer code :D
I dont buy "I came to learn about Islam from GS" line at all. You guys came here out of curiosity mixed in with some form of steroetype towards the Muslims in general.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Anti-americansim is very much common in many countries already let alone discussion boards 
You may, and some others, may have the intention to come to this site to learn about Islam but to many others its NOT a place for mere discussion/learning. To many its a place for venting their american frustration , chit chat, and all that. Not an appropriate medium for learning about Islam or muslim (wo be pakistani, wah ).
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
how come only goras are interested in learning about ISLAM on gupshup ( which like other's have mentioned already, is a very bad place for this purpose) and not any african black american or latino?
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Generally, gora people have an inquisitive mind. Not generalizing here, but I guess it's something to do with the genes.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
No they came to preach thier superiority, but they found twice as many preaching back.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
I came to GS to promote Islam and engage in healthy conversations regarding current events in the world. I was disappointed in both. The muslims on this board are so very wrong. There is so much in Islam that talks about peace,love,kindness, and modesty. But the muslim members (not all but few) portray Islam as harsh, brutal and, all non-muslims will burn in hell. That is just not true.
Then there are the members in World forum that are still stuck in WWII era and are wondering whether Pearl Harbor was a secret CIA plan ( mind you CIA was not in business back then it was OSS), or WTC were also bombed by CIA or Mossad.
I mean do you guys read other publications from the rest of the world. You know the Venezulen kids in remote villages have more general knowledge about the world than most of you combined, and they dont have computers. They read two or three week old newspaper any newpaper and can still make an informed decision rather than
“Death to Jews, US is Amrikkka killers” type statements.
I urge you my fellow members to learn and be over achievers not under. Join an organization and distribute food to the poor, teach them. Allah didn’t put us on the planet so we can argue and fight over mundane issues. Allah put us on the planet so we can help others muslims and non-muslims alike. Most of the peaceful causes are actually led by Christians and Jews (and they are people of the book) and I pray that all these nice Christians and Jews be with me in Heaven (should Allah give me the permission) rather than a few members that I have come across.
Spread the love of Allah in a nice polite and kind manner. Live the life of a progressive muslim, smile with kindness, give your seat to elderly, help the poor, teach the young. And May Islam prosper. But if you post “All will burn in hell” become muslim or repent. Then I am sorry to inform you it is a lost cause.
Peace to all of you. You are in my prayers, may Allah show us the right path and lead us not astray, You are my Lord, you created me and to you I return, I fear no one but you.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Very nice sentimenst, Raja Sahib. However, do you also induldge yourself in reading publications that are not "biased". How about some books that provide the details regarding the creation of OSS and CIA. How about the truth about USS Liberty? How about reading a book that explains Iraq dilema (Iraq: In the eye of storm will be a good start).
There is no doubt that America does a lot of good around the world. You cannot ignore the fact that some of the moves and policies have back fired. There is nothing wrong in discussing those issues.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Mr Kaleem I am more of a peacenik so I dont get to read heavy duty books on Iraq written by Ken Pollack a former CIA analyst working for a think tank wink wink brookings and that too in Saban Mideast policy center started by King Abdullah (the late Jordanian King that was on CIA Payroll). But I do read newspapers and other publications that are non-biased for instance olivier Roys Globalized Islam is an excellent read.
All I was trying to say was to have constructive arguments, not based on Jewish hate or American hate. No one country is perfect all countries have problems. Look at Venezuela they are an oil producing country yet American Peace Corp is actively engaged in helping the countries poor. Not one penny from the oil pumped goes to eradicate poverty. Same example can be applied in other parts of the world as well. So I have no problems engaging in constructive arguments.
BTW this just occured to me that there are moderators on this forum as the name applies they should be moderating constructive arguments, not deleting content out of a post (thats why I left GS few years back) plus the trip to Venezuela.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Now just hold it right there, buddy! I never accused you or anyone else here of hijacking, beheading, etc.
I’ve only discovered that an alarming number of generally intelligent people like yourself to varying degrees tacitly approve, apologize for or even cheer on such behavior if it means the U.S. will “suffer” some type of wound because of it. Even if it happens to innocent Muslims.
A certain amount of anti-Americanism is rooted in legitimate disagreements between peoples/cultures. A similar amount of anti-(your country here) sentiment could be argued over.
A great deal of anti-Americanism is rooted in a social pathology, a mindset that is self propogating.
I’m really not a right wing redneck and you’re not an Islamo facist. However,
I think the methods and purpose of al quaeda and the like are indefensible-to a much greater degree than the entirety of U.S. influence around the globe.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
I think one of the things that I have found out here is that Anti-American-ism is quite fashionable. There is a rigid if unwritten set of rules that drives highly politicised Islam. It is not that different from good old fashioned European liberal, quasi-socialist thought, with an extra dose of anti-semitism thrown in.
Repeatedly I have watched "outliers" in Islamic thought be "brought into line" by his brothers. If a brother would say "The Isrealis are only doing what we would do, were we in their place.", his brothers would jump him like a pack of wolves, and within moments, his faith would be questioned and he would be accused of being un-islamic. Never have I seen a more rigid set of manditory beliefs.
But why come to Gupshup to learn all of this? Well, I actually visited Shia boards, Iranian boards, and some other discussion groups. Frankly the fact that I do not read Persian or Arabic keeps me from getting to the really good stuff. Pakistanis, at least the "elite" of Pakistan have a good command of English, so it makes some discovery easier. What I really wanted to find out is how virulent political Islam really is against the US. To do that, I would have to read Urdu, and the folks that have the most extreme views probably do not have a computer either.
The thing that I was quick to discover is that Islam and the current Political Islam are today inseparable. While I wanted to learn about the religion of Islam itself, I wanted to discuss the views and impact of the religion with those who hold diverse views.
To those who suggest that the reason that I came here was some post 9/11 hatred for Islam, frankly that is preposterous. I enjoy the cut and thrust of a good debate, and a few of you are good debaters. The internet is a fabulous tool for engagement. My goal was to debate and challenge. The western world is watching the Islamic world carefully. The only good to have come from 9/11 is that you have our attention. Whether your lasting impression will be a sillouette of an ak47, or whether the vast middle classes will use the opportunity to create a lasting and important revolution has yet to be seen.
One thing is clear, the dominos are falling. Perhaps not where the west would like them, but the protest this week in Lebanon are akin to the falling of the Berlin wall. The process of change has been kindled, and is starting to burn. In my heart I believe that the vast middle class of Islam has had a belly full of terrorists, extremeists, criminal and thugs. The protests in Lebanon are as important as the quiet revolutions in Georgia, and the Ukraine. Importantly they were non-violent, an absolute first on such a large scale in the middle east. Regardless of your views, Syrian, or anti-Syrian, the act of taking matters into the hands of the people is an important mental hurdle in the collapse of tyrrany in the middle east.
If Afghans and Iraqis were having peaceful and free elections without the US, most of you would be whooping it up, and celebrating for your brothers. I think that it is utterly shameful that many of you ignore the bravery and importance of these events because you hatred for the US is more important than your desire for the advancement of your brothers. So long as political Islam can only be viewed in the mirror of the US or Israel, it is doomed to fail. When political Islam emerges and says "what is good for my brothers is good for me", then you will no longer need the focus of an enemy to energize the masses, you will pursue Islamic leadership in a mature fashion.
Communism failed of its own weight for a number of reasons. Economic stagnation, corruption, tyranny, (alcoholism), and a succession policy that made coups the main method for advancement. Political Islam is now mounting a challenge to Western politics. Islam is a competing power. A lot must change for it to succeed.
That is why I am here.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
have u ever visited yahoo msg boards? and how much hate they(americans) spit out there aganist islam? GS is nothing compared to that. So stop whining.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Total BS AS. As I think OG has also said before, I had virtually no opinon on Islam prior to 9-11 except perhaps that it was a religion with some archaic/fundamentalist practices and that muslims (for the most part) kept to themsleves. Kind of like the mormons mixed with the quakers plus a little 3rd world uncivilization thrown in for good measure. I leaned toward empathy in regards to the Palestinian issue, and thought that muslims were stereotyped in hollywood as terrorists much like Italians were/are always stereotyped as gangsters. I had no negative bias on Islam coming in to Gupshup whatsoever. I have learned now, through the prism that is Gupshup, that Islam is afflicted with a deep and wide streak of fundamentalist-driven violence.
And in regard to your comment that I believe “we at Gupshup are hijacking planes or kidnapping and beheading tourists”, this isn’t true in the least. As I said before, it’s my experience that non-adult, non-US-living guppies empathize with and support these terrorist actions in varying degrees. But, I would be very surprised to learn that a keyboard jihadi from gupistan would actually commit any terrorist act because they don’t have the balls. That AT Tawheed freak who I think was banned awhile ago would be an exception. That guppy was freakin psycho. Can anyone confirm that AT Tawheed was a chick?
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Stu upthread,
[QUOTE]
Everyone else on Gupshup, IMO, falls somewhere on a scale from moderate contempt to shear hatred (all driven out of feelings of jealosy and humiliation). It's too bad really.
[/QUOTE]
Generalizations blow a messed up wad.
I have had my fair share of bleeding rednecks on other forums [not related to Pakistan or Islam at all] and gotta say the animosity displayed here eclipses almost every other board I have ever visited, except for some crazy right-wing neo-con nut jobs and ultra-christian/anti-Potter whacko forums.
The clash of religion and secularism is not pretty to behold.
Ohioguy posts,
[QUOTE]
I think one of the things that I have found out here is that Anti-American-ism is quite fashionable.
[/QUOTE]
So is anti-anti-americanism.
[QUOTE]
Never have I seen a more rigid set of manditory beliefs.
[/QUOTE]
American south during the segregation? The proponents of Jim Crow laws? The good 'ol boys network? The revival of KKK?
[QUOTE]
Pakistanis, at least the "elite" of Pakistan have a good command of English, so it makes some discovery easier.
[/QUOTE]
The 'elite' of overcease Pakistanies, right?
[QUOTE]
What I really wanted to find out is how virulent political Islam really is against the US.
[/QUOTE]
About as virulent as Ann Coulter and friends against hard core liberals.
[QUOTE]
One thing is clear, the dominos are falling. Perhaps not where the west would like them, but the protest this week in Lebanon are akin to the falling of the Berlin wall.
[/QUOTE]
Yup, plenty of hot chicks there.
[QUOTE]
Regardless of your views, Syrian, or anti-Syrian, the act of taking matters into the hands of the people is an important mental hurdle in the collapse of tyrrany in the middle east.
[/QUOTE]
Lebanon is leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of Middle-East in almost all facets of democracy and as far different from the stereotypical Middle-eastern nation as you can be.
[QUOTE]
If Afghans and Iraqis were having peaceful and free elections without the US, most of you would be whooping it up, and celebrating for your brothers.
[/QUOTE]
You cannot expect the dog who ate the chicken to be made the guest royale in rooster castle.
[QUOTE]
I think that it is utterly shameful that many of you ignore the bravery and importance of these events because you hatred for the US is more important than your desire for the advancement of your brothers.
[/QUOTE]
You kill my innocent sister/brother and no matter how pious or righteous you are, no one is going to give a flying **** about that. I am coming straight for your throat. Suppose, even if you believe for a moment that universal Islamic solidarity exists (in whatever lameass spirit that might be), the people who are being killed would be our brothers and sisters, right? What should logically ensue is easy to imagine.
A Muslim life is cheap. A middle-eastern life is cheap. The evidence is in front of us. Let's suppose that about ten thousand people suffered terminal injuries on 9/11. Now compare that number to the people who have died in the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq. But on a strictly political spectrum, where do these deaths stand in comparison to the WTC disaster?... From your prespective the lives of these people might not be so important, (and don't try to deny that, I have heard it firsthand from many Iraq vets and other Americans of all ilks), but try telling this to all those whose relatives have been the victims.
[QUOTE]
When political Islam emerges and says "what is good for my brothers is good for me", then you will no longer need the focus of an enemy to energize the masses, you will pursue Islamic leadership in a mature fashion.
[/QUOTE]
Alas, if we all were so benevolent in practise... Besides, I certainly disagree with the way YOU people choose your president. I hope that in the future you will be able to focus onto what really matters, instead of digging up age-old scandals; and hopefully come by a system which will enable you to select your president in a mature fashion. ;)
Also, please, Pakistan is not synonymous with classical Islam. So have a care when you paint the whole Islamic 'ummah' with the same brush - It pisses off many nationalists.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Don't forget that america has been meddling in Muslim/Arab countries affairs for agesssss, replacing dictators after another, anti-americanisim was, and is, very much deep-rooted and is just after 9/11 that has it become obvious. Only comprehending and understanding it will help. Blind hatred against america only for those who have suffer from american policy directly or be indirectly or even another generation(seems to be a tradition among Arabs/muslim, as even family rivalries are made known to them, let alone hatred, revenge and all that). And I had come across sites, with the language being English, discussing all sort of political and current issues and are far more anti-american/israel then here. Not knowing persian/arabic/urdu doesn't stops you from getting the good stuff. Do try to understand that most anti-american or political people don't reside or live in Arab/muslim countries, on the other hand they are very much happy at the westernizing/modernizing of their countries, whereas its those who are born/bred/live abroad who are, its a clash of their faith to their surroundings. All those who were blamed/responsible for the attack or bombing were from the same background. Outwardly far more desiness(compare with any local back home) but inwardly a gora-way-of thinking, confused.
I think At-Taweed was a she but no idea that she is ban?
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
And so is anti-Islam and anti-Arab and anti-Muslims and anti-Pakistanis…all these sentiments are also pretty fashionable on not just mesg boards throughout the net and in real life. I have myself experienced alot of hatred, while working for the US govt. just becuz i am of a diff religion and dress differently than everyone else. I am not a racist, since I have friends of every color, religion and culture, but I myself have experienced hatred from white folks, never from any other race. And all this while I am working for the govt. Imagine what would happen if i had anti-american views and expressed them at all!
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Plus OG, as long as I have been here and followed your posts in this forum, all I see is hatred towards Muslims in general. Did this also develop after you came to learn abt islam on this site or did it exist before 911? Your posts truly sicken me. To me you are no different than an extremist Muslim who shows his hatred for Americans. You are just as guilty.
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
Gosh Ira I’m upset. 
This is just the internet, it’s not real life. Don’t mistake confrontation for hate. If I had grown up Indian, or Jewish I would have a lifetime of inbred hatred. Frankly I don’t know enough Muslims or Pakistanis to hate them. They have certainly never done anything to me. I react strongly to anti-americanism because I think it has become a game. A dangerous game.
I think on college campuses, in some of the liberal media, certainly in the Arab press, Americans have become convenient targets. I can’t let that lie. I intend on challenging people who insist that the US is the root of all evil. Everytime a post about slavery or Hiroshima goes unchallenged here, some fool will read it and believe it. I have been here 3 plus years, and never been banned, but I have had a few death threats.
So, I cannot let hypocracy lie. If you want to bring up Hiroshima, I will bring up East Pakistan. If you want to tell me how polluted American culture is, I will post something about Pakistani culture. All around the world today, people do not see the US as a force for good. Americans give massive amounts of money for every type of relief effort, as does our government. Americans did not want to join the first and second world wars, we did so only reluctantly. Americans began the effort to form International associations of nations. Americans fought godless communism, and as a result communism was defeated and discredited. Where would Muslims be today if godless Russia had succeeded?
Have we done things that are wrong? Sure. Backing despots, meddling in Central American politics, and more than a few other errors. On balance however the prosperity and peace brought by the US has far far outweighed the bad. On any given day our policies may be wrong. The beauty of a democracy is that it is generaly self correcting. Bad politicians generally don’t last long.
So I intend on confronting the crap that gets flung around here. It is offensive, and most of the time it is simply not back by facts. Approach Gupshup like a debating society. The more vigorous the debate, the deeper the passions, the more healthy the debate in the long run. Think about it…
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
[quote]
The more vigorous the debate, the deeper the passions, the more healthy the debate in the long run. Think about it....
[/quote]
and yet you stated that you personally disliked CM the other day..
Re: I came to GS to learn about Muslims
OG: I’m so proud of you. You got through that entire post without once calling Ira a “boy.” 
It seems to be fashionable for some Guppies to falsely claim that many of us Americans came to Gupshup filled with hate for Islam and a desire to belittle its practitioners.
Here is the very first paragraph of my very first post:
I am a non-Muslim American citizen who wishes to express his thanks to the people (majority or minority?) and government of Pakistan for their support in the horrible campaign against terrorism that a world-wide coalition of civilized countries has most regrettably been forced to commence by a fringe group of outlaw lunatics. I have been impressed by and thankful for the courageous stand against terrorism taken by your government leaders at no small risk to themselves, their government and the Pakistani people. This courage and these feelings apparently transcend your own political differences as I witnessed by watching former prime minister Bhutto in numerous interviews with American*** journalists. Even if you do not support her, you should be proud as Pakistani’s of the eloquence she exhibited in stating her views. You can be assured that the tears I will shed for any innocent Pakistani who comes into harms way because of this stand will be as real and heartfelt as the tears I shed for the thousand of innocent Americans and foreign born workers and visitors who perished at the WTC. ***
Here are the last couple sentences of my very first post:
***“The killing of innocent people is a despicable and heinous act that is accepted by neither religion nor human sensibility,” – Grand Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of Cairo’s Al-Azhar, Islam’s oldest and most prominent religious institution after the attack on the WTC. By celebrating an attack on America, “we are violating our own cultural edicts,” said Ahmed Bishara, head of Kuwait’s National Democratic Movement. “We are not Muslims anymore if we do this. There are norms and rules for fighting your enemy and getting your rights.” ***
***Again, many thanks to your government and the millions of Pakistanis who are standing tall for humanity. ***
******Whatever you think of my posts today, I did not come here with a hatred for Islam or a desire to bash Muslims.