Honour killings

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=80757

[system]

Re: Honour killings

@metromomma

Then why is it muslims who are stoning their women and Jews and Christians, not?

Don’t justify anyone who thinks it is allright to lash a woman for ‘extreme infidelity’. Can we prove every time that the witnesses did not lie, or that the lasher is not an adulterer himself?

“Let him who has not sinned pick up the first stone…”

That is what I know, and all that I care about, when it comes to Biblical junctions regarding adulterous women. All else is junk IMO. I hope you get what I mean, and my apologies if you feel I have overstepped.

Rarely will u find any Muslim state propagating death by stoning, yes it has been used as a propaganda tool by Muslims themselves. But, their is very little proof of its legality and I agree with the concept, let his who has not sinned pick up the first stone. Therefore, what it possibly means is for society to acheive perfection in Islamic or religious terms. If we cannot do that then things such as these are not applicable.

No need to apologise, this place is open to discussion and difference of opinions are always welcomed.

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

^^

States don't implement these hard penalties, because they might face worldwide condemnation. We have seen how Nigerian govt couldn't give that hard punishment to a woman. But ppl within a country don't face such issues, specially if the govt itself does not care about the victims. Big difference.

But again, the point is that: Since consensual sex outside marriage is such a big punishable crime in Islam, ppl do think they have the right to kill someone.

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Honour killings

@lostsoul

Hey, dude from Texas

Maybe u woke up yesterday morning, and read up somewhere that ppl with ur name r called muslims. And all of a sudden u r looking for some guy who can teach u islam. Well, guess what, unluckuy day…I am not available.

Read Quran, and Hadiths…so many resources on net, and even here on GS, these topics have been debated over and over again.

Lol dude you make it sound like the whole foundation of islam is set up the ideology of punishment of Zina… one shouldn’t be a muslims if one don’t know anything about it… its Gunah-e-Kabeera and I should refrain form it… thats enough for me to know… there are other pilllars of islam which I need to know to be a muslims… thinks like kalma, namaaz, roza, hajj… how ignorant you are… I asked you for a reference and you doubting on me being a muslims go and read the shariah what i needs to be a muslims.. before you go on your motto of accusing others…Boy you are one lost soul.

[metromomma]

Re: Honour killings

@fartguru

Rarely will u find any Muslim state propagating death by stoning, yes it has been used as a propaganda tool by Muslims themselves. But, their is very little proof of its legality and I agree with the concept, let his who has not sinned pick up the first stone. Therefore, what it possibly means is for society to acheive perfection in Islamic or religious terms. If we cannot do that then things such as these are not applicable.

No need to apologise, this place is open to discussion and difference of opinions are always welcomed.

Thanks Fartguru,!

I’m not sure I understand you - do you mean that unless society becomes perfect, severe punishment should not be meted out? But a perfect society would not have such a punishment anyway, maybe they would stop fornicating outside marriage, who knows…I mean if this is what perfection means.

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Honour killings

@lostsoul

But again, the point is that: Since consensual sex outside marriage is such a big punishable crime in Islam, ppl do think they have the right to kill someone.

Had that been the case.. why is the practice limited to illiterate societies… and places where there is jageerdana system… and why is it called honory killing.. if it comes from religon.. and if punishment of zina applies to both men and woman..why honray killings are limited to ladies…and how does it fit the context of a girl who get raped… why is she killed to you does that also come from illiteracy…or religon…???

Incase you don’t know such illiterate practices were being practiced before Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. introduced islam.. people used to burry their daughters alive… considering it as a dishonor… which religon motivated them than…???

[system]

Re: Honour killings

@metromomma

Thanks Fartguru,!

I’m not sure I understand you - do you mean that unless society becomes perfect, severe punishment should not be meted out? But a perfect society would not have such a punishment anyway, maybe they would stop fornicating outside marriage, who knows…I mean if this is what perfection means.

Perfection is with only one entity and that is Allah (God). Human beings are dictated by societal norms established by religious foundations. These norms have their positive attributes and penaltities devised to ensure societal needs.

Until unless society does not offer its citizens the benefits as defined by religion, then applying punishment without the offered advantages does not make sense. First, justice, equality proper Islamic attributes which provide protection to all are not provided then applying punishment as a penal code are basically man made interpertations.

[Pinstripe_Danda]

Re: Honour killings

"Perfection is with only one entity and that is Allah (God). Human beings are dictated by societal norms established by religious foundations"

This is factually incorrect. Atheists can live within a societal framework without the guidance of scripture or religious doctrines.

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

^^ thats true. Moral values r based on "dont do to others what u dont what ithers to do to u"

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

@Texan_Dude

Had that been the case.. why is the practice limited to illiterate societies… and places where there is jageerdana system… and why is it called honory killing.. if it comes from religon.. and if punishment of zina applies to both men and woman..why honray killings are limited to ladies…and how does it fit the context of a girl who get raped… why is she killed to you does that also come from illiteracy…or religon…???

Incase you don’t know such illiterate practices were being practiced before Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. introduced islam.. people used to burry their daughters alive… considering it as a dishonor… which religon motivated them than…???

Never said that Honor killing is just because of religion. People try to perpetuate a traditional order, because they have vested interest in it. Religion just justifies it. But it does play a big role, specially, if the state is crminially silent spectator.

And yes, I do know that these practises existed before Islam. Never questioned it. Islam did bring an improvement in the lives of the ppl. But still, 14 centuries later, any attemptt o revive that old order is very retrogressive and cruel.

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Honour killings

@lostsoul

Never said that Honor killing is just because of religion. People try to perpetuate a traditional order, because they have vested interest in it. Religion just justifies it. But it does play a big role, specially, if the state is crminially silent spectator.

And yes, I do know that these practises existed before Islam. Never questioned it. Islam did bring an improvement in the lives of the ppl. But still, 14 centuries later, any attemptt o revive that old order is very retrogressive and cruel.

Well if someone abuses religon to fill his interests its his fault and he’ll get the ajjar for it.. there is no way one can accuse them of religon… its simple if a girl gets raped.. no religon asks to kill the girl but justice should be served by catching to opressor but if people want to come up with excuses and blame it by false interpretation of religon… its their will and Allah SWT will give them ajjar for that but there is no way you can accuse religon for it when the religon never preached it.. now that you agree that these practices were there before Islam … what religon was used to justify that??? its simple dude if one is illiterate he can come up with 101 excuses some can come from wrong interpretation of teachings of a religon just to meet one needs… and its his fault and illiteracy there is no way you can accuse religon for that.

[system]

Re: Honour killings

@Pinstripe Danda

“Perfection is with only one entity and that is Allah (God). Human beings are dictated by societal norms established by religious foundations”

This is factually incorrect. Atheists can live within a societal framework without the guidance of scripture or religious doctrines.

Correct, today’s atheist can and probably does. Question today’s atheist sud be asking is how did these human values evolve? Religions, my friend were responsible for defining societal norms. What religions offer even today is the spiritual yearning of human kind, as long as we human beings need morality, social conciesness, purpose in life the religions will matter.

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

@Texan_Dude

Well if someone abuses religon to fill his interests its his fault and he’ll get the ajjar for it.. there is no way one can accuse them of religon… its simple if a girl gets raped.. no religon asks to kill the girl but justice should be served by catching to opressor but if people want to come up with excuses and blame it by false interpretation of religon… its their will and Allah SWT will give them ajjar for that but there is no way you can accuse religon for it when the religon never preached it.. now that you agree that these practices were there before Islam … what religon was used to justify that??? its simple dude if one is illiterate he can come up with 101 excuses some can come from wrong interpretation of teachings of a religon just to meet one needs… and its his fault and illiteracy there is no way you can accuse religon for that.

Hmmm…OK, lets consider a case:

A traditional and religous family’s daughter eloped with a boy and/or have consensual sex with some guy. The family said, the girl accepted the blame of sexual intercourse, and tahts why they killed her according to Islamic injunctions.

Another case:

A guy lives with another guy in Karachi, and they both say they r homosexuals. They both get killed according to Islamic injunction for sodomy.

What u say?

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

@fartguru

Correct, today’s atheist can and probably does. Question today’s atheist sud be asking is how did these human values evolve? Religions, my friend were responsible for defining societal norms. What religions offer even today is the spiritual yearning of human kind, as long as we human beings need morality, social conciesness, purpose in life the religions will matter.

Absolutely not.

Put 100 babies in an island, and wait and watch them for about 10-20 years. They all will agree to some kind of moral values in interaction with each other for only one and one reason: Mutual survival of the race.

Look at any species, and their rules and regulaytions for mating. They all have some moral values even in something, where we human beings falter a lot (infidelity,etc)

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Honour killings

@lostsoul

Hmmm…OK, lets consider a case:

A traditional and religous family’s daughter eloped with a boy and/or have consensual sex with some guy. The family said, the girl accepted the blame of sexual intercourse, and tahts why they killed her according to Islamic injunctions.

Another case:

A guy lives with another guy in Karachi, and they both say they r homosexuals. They both get killed according to Islamic injunction for sodomy.

What u say?

Its simple dude ! Ok if someone does zina and someone gets the prescrbed punishment for doing that practice it should be limited to that practice… it should not be applied to a girl who gets raped and stuff.. just to protect the honor because islam doesn’t prescribe the same punishment for it.. they should actually punish the guy who raped the innocent girl… but if someone is illiterate or wants to play ignorant and apply the same punishment in the case.. he is wrong in doing so.. its his fault.. and islam should not be accused for it… as such honray practices as been carried out before islam and are not supported by islam.

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

@Texan_Dude

Its simple dude ! Ok if someone does zina and someone gets the prescrbed punishment for doing that practice it should be limited to that practice… it should not be applied to a girl who gets raped and stuff.. just to protect the honor because islam doesn’t prescribe the same punishment for it.. they should actually punish the guy who raped the innocent girl… but if someone is illiterate or wants to play ignorant and apply the same punishment in the case.. he is wrong in doing so.. its his fault.. and islam should not be accused for it… as such honray practices as been carried out before islam and are not supported by islam.

So ‘dude’, u conceded that ppl committing consensual zine, should be killed?

Most of the honor killings in Pak, do not happen because of rape, but because of ‘illicit relationships’. You want to challenge that?

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Honour killings

@lostsoul

So ‘dude’, u conceded that ppl committing consensual zine, should be killed?

Most of the honor killings in Pak, do not happen because of rape, but because of ‘illicit relationships’. You want to challenge that?

Dude I don’t know what exactly is the punsihment for Gunnah-e-Kabeera Zina… I haven’t read the ayat which refers to it.. but the punishment for it doesnot support that a girl getting raped, flirting or whatsoever… you cannot say oh the punishment of zina is soo so I can also use the same judement for other acts which are smaller… its simple dude… and if someone takes the punishment zina and apply it to acts.. its his ignorance and islam can’t be blame for that… thats my point dude…

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

Ok, first find out what the punishment for Zina is. Then u will perhaps understand my point.

[Texan_Dude]

Re: Honour killings

@lostsoul

Ok, first find out what the punishment for Zina is. Then u will perhaps understand my point.

Dude you don’t have a point… if the punishment for zina as you might say is death or whatsoever.. the punishment cannot by applied to other instances… which are mentioned in the begining of the article… example… a girl being raped, a girl flirting but not performing zina… or whatsoever… those actions do not fill the definition of zina and therefore if some illiterate person use it as the excuse to defend his honor or whatsoever and is just playing ignorant… these acts were being perfomred before islam by illiterate people.. punishment of zina could have very rare to do with it because people have been practicing worse before islam and your so called punishment of zina was introduced… you can twist arguments as much as you want.. the fact such pracitices are done by illiterate socieitey and have been there alot before islam.. people even used to burry their daughters alive and didnt have islam or any other religon to back it up… you argument is just lame… zina punishment applies just to zina and if you want to use it as an excuse buddy to defend your so called “family honor” feel free to do so.. but don’t use islam to justify your acts because it doesn’t meet the definition and be responsible that you have to answer Allah SWT for your deeds… not to mention the punishment of zina is same for men and woman… by no means it can me used to justify honary killing of woman…enough said your argument is just lame your are using zina’s punishment to justify all the honary killing which have been practiced by illiterate socieites before and after islam… thats just pathetic and lame accusation…

Is it just me… or can anyone see a point in Lost souls lost logic… Honary killing practice have been carried out way before Prophet P.B.U.H and he wants to justify it by using a punishment which he says is for zina and same for both men and woman … to justify that honary killing of women innocent woman getting raped… flirting or infidelity… wheras the things don’t fit the definition of zina… but he wants to readers to assume that the practice of so called “Honary killing” just comes from the zina punishment even though its been practiced way before islam and has been practiced illiterate socieities.. DOES ANYONE SEE HIS POINT.. OR IS IT JUST LAME EXCUSE TO MUDSLING ISLAM WITHOUT ANY POINT.

[lostsoul]

Re: Honour killings

u obviously don't want to answer my question.

To me, honor killing, just because someon's sister got pregnant out of wedlock, is very reprehensible.

Just tell me, if it is OK for a person to kill his sister for infidelity in this case? Does ur religion justify the act?