Funny thing about religious zealots is they want equal treatment when they are a minority, while,they do not hesitate in putting down other minorities. Heal thyself.
Homosexuality may be wrong, unethical, immoral, anti-religious and destructive for the society or it may be a harmless, natural and less common variation of human sexuality determined by a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors, all depending on which side of the argument one belongs to, but it is not classified as a disease or mental illness by any major medical authority, be it the World Health Organisation, American and European Psychiatry Associations, or the General Medical Council.
Of course one could argue those organisations are wrong and that they and their own sources are right, and that is OK with me, but I would't waste my time arguing with such a person.
**I think it is silly, I did choose my words carefully. You shouldn’t select a few sentences in the Quran and try to find loopholes or come up with your own interpretations to convince others that same-sex relationships are permissible. That’s confirmation bias. When it comes to a matter of religion, one should seek religious advice. **
Islam is a peaceful religion and places a big focus on peace and forgiveness. And since Islam has no living cleric that is seen as the voice of God (eg. Catholics), I don’t think anyone can say how God will feel about homosexuals. Personally, I would say it is a case by case basis. Would God forsake for an eternity in hell, a person who has every virtue of Islam EXCEPT that they are homosexual? And on the other side of that coin, would he grant a place in heaven to someone who follows all religious practices, but is a also a selfish person who has been abusive to other humans and/or animals?
Now of course, the vast majority of us don’t fall into such extremes being assessed, but some do (read: homosexuals [in this case]).
Trying to find a balance between what the religion clearly forbids or allows and a western upbringing is tricky, but one should either refrain from that particular sin altogether or just own it while acknowledging it goes against what Islam has said. But don’t try to reconcile the two things. That’s just making a joke out of religion. There’s our own individual perpective and then there’s Islam’s perspective.
I agree with you that those who do such things should just own them. Lol but it isn’t as easy as that for some people. Thats why in my last post I spoke about cognitive dissonance. Starting to do something (for whatever reason) that you’ve been indoctrinated not to do ever can have a huge impact on how a person may feel about themselves. Which brings me to my main point on all this jibber jabber; let’s not judge others as being good or bad anything. You don’t know the full story.
If someone wants to be gay, let them! If that same person wants to pray to Allah, let them! The maximum amount of “commentary” that anyone else should have on another person’s faith is zero. Let Allah worry about whether he accepts the worship of a gay person or not.
If a person feels attracted to the same sex but doesn’t engage in haram acts (out of fear of God) there’s no sinning. If we claim muslim gays cannot help themselves but to engage in impermissable acts, than yes why can’t we say the same for wrongdoers and hypocrites or other groups? Altho that was not the point I was trying to make in my previous post.
If you believe that a liar, or a thief, or a murderer, is working with the same level of * “cant help themselves”* as a gay person, then our discussion is completely moot and I will not respond again.
Love the keyboard jihadis in this thread.
My favourite part about our people is our unbeatable prowess at focusing on the wrongs committed others. Not only that, but also judging them harshly for it, rather than being kind and understanding. If it were up to us brown people, this would be an olympic sport.
No, the medical consensus changed as a result of lack of scientific proof to justify homophobia as a psychiatric illness, not the first time as medical classification keeps changing. Even left-handedness, bottom-shuffling, hysteria, neurasthenia, the vapours, drapetomania, glass delusion etc all were once considered diseases but not anymore.
I know many psychiatrists on a personal level, and unlike conditions like ME, Fibromyalgia, dissociative disorders (which many view with suspicion) I am yet to meet one who considers homosexuality an illness.
At the end of the day I have worked with gay doctors and nurses, and have treated gay patients, and I have never sensed any psychiatric ailment in them, functioning just as their straight counterparts only difference being their choice of romantic partner which is non of my concern. I would be least bothered about the sexuality of the surgeon scrubbing to remove my perforated Appendix as I grapple in pain, my only concern will be their clinical competence and professional probity.
I hope everyone thought that way what you think about clinical competence. But unfortunately there is huge fear among doctors as sharing their true opinions about something political can get them in serious trouble. Here is at least one doctor and look what happened to him.
Well we all are different individuals with different experiences in life of dealing with all sorts of different people. I have worked and spent time with gay people and my views and opinion of them are shaped by own experiences and assessments, which happen to be shared by the great majority of my colleagues as well, of course there will be exceptions. As professionals we follow majority consensus and guidelines accepted by a body of experts, otherwise everyone will start their own treatment regimes and start selling their own snake oil and such.
I wonder if your views are based upon your own experiences of interacting with gay people that made you suspect they had some sort of mental illness or if they are influenced by social and religious factors.
Would you sue if the doctor listed misogyny as your chronic condition?
In my opinion this is how it works for eg you are a failure in life, short unattractive, unsuccessful irrelevant human and then you start spewing hate and bigotry and all of a sudden people are noticing you and you are getting attention so that to my eyes is the mental sickness
Unfortunately differing opinions on the subject are threatened with loss of livelihood, that is why I call it political.
If someone discriminates me on the basis that I was a Muslim, or brown, or handicapped or disabled or happen to like women then I will do my best to make sure they get reprimanded for their actions and contribute towards establishing a fairer and more inclusive society.
In case if I am faced with arguing against someone who does not believe in global warming, or supports capital punishment or hates welfare state etc than of course that is a political subject and i will have no right to impose my will nor take away their livelihood or opportunities.
Lol, no hate and bigotry is spewed by as many so called successful, attractive, tall and relevant folks than otherwise, just look at the leader of the free world!
He got attention and relevance because of hate, most of his followers are unattractive, uneducated and unsuccessful people
To those who tout their religion and knock other religions that practice idolatry, and state that cannot be path to God - which God? The one who rules by fear? The one who threatens to banish you to hell if you don’t respect him adequately? The one who created hell? Wow - and you consider that God as someone to respect?
Come on over - find a God who is all loving and all merciful. There is God all around us, within you, within others. In a stone, in an idol, everywhere. You will learn to appreciate nature and everyone around you. And you will learn to respect yourself.
Har har Mahadev!
We went from “muslims need to take a stand against hateful verses in the Quran promoting discrimination”, to “muslims kill and rape innocents and buy young wives and so on and no outcry from other muslims but they have problems with homosexuals who mind their own business”, then we had “muslim gays should be able to misinterpret Quranic verses to justify their lifestyle” which would mean Quran allows it when it clearly doesn’t. Again, the Quran doesn’t contradict itself. And now it’s “Islam is the religion of peace, love and mercy and only God can judge”. 
I do agree with the last statement, but that’s not a free pass to expect support etc for whatever you like or do. Allah is Merciful and Oft-Forgiving, however you/I/we should give up the sin when repenting and do your/my/our best not to return to it.
If a muslim woman decides to marry a non-muslim husband when Islam forbids it, cool. If a muslim man marries a woman who isn’t a follower of the Abrahamic faith when Quran is very clear on this issue, cool. If a muslim man and woman have sexual relations before marriage when Islam doesn’t allow zina, cool. If a married muslim man or woman sleeps around because of marital problems or they can’t help it and keep it in their pants, cool. If a muslim person believes in everything but doesn’t pray namaz yet for whatever reason despite what’s written in Quran, cool. And the list goes on.
Yes, Allah will judge our permissable and impermissable actions and our intentions. And none of us knows which sin will lead us to Hell or which good deed will grant us Heaven.
I sound like a broken record. I’m not judging people, that would mean I think I’m better or free of sins. I have my own fair share of (previous or ongoing) minor and major sins, which I don’t feel the need to share but I regret them. IMHO it would be wrong for me to try and justify a particular sin from an Islamic perspective if the religion has a very clear stance on that particular sin.
Muslims don’t have a Pope-like figure and Imam Mahdi (Aleyhi Salaam) isn’t here yet, but we received the word of Allah (Quran) and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
All I said was don’t (mis)interpret Quran to justify something which is considered immoral, not permissable? I’ll repeat myself, Quran isn’t flawed and doesn’t contradict itself as Allah is free from imperfections.
Choice. God consciousness. Applies to all of us.
I guess the discussion has become moot, it was nice discussing with you. Bye.
If you believe in ALLAH you cant do so while also worshipping idols. I am not talking about Hindus or others who are idol worshippers. Even if I believe that it is Allah who created everything, including those who worship idols.
Although we believe the Quran was sent down as guidance to mankind, it’s the muslims who accept it and choose to follow it. Therefore, I don’t see why you are making it so personal, when it isn’t about you and doesn’t concern you or anyone else who doesn’t consider himself a muslim and believes in Quran as a guidance from Allah.
I’m bored now. Good luck with speaking out and fighting against all the different types of discriminations found in Islam.
Why can’t there be Hell if there’s Heaven? If there’s Dark there’s also light. If there is injustice, there’s also justice. If there is sadness, there’s happiness. If there’s sickness, there is also the cure.
Allah is loving, He forgives you time and time again when you repent, even if it’s the same sin over and over again or a horrible sin you can’t forgive yourself for. Us humans have a limit, either out of pain or because of ego, when someone does something that angers us and they don’t change their behaviours in a way we deem acceptable we end the contact. With God He will forgive as long as there’s someone who sincerely repents and ask for forgiveness. If that isn’t Mercy I don’t know what is. Alhamdulillah.
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This thread was about homosexuality and its evils. And I spoke up,against this threads hypothesis. Subsequently Quran was brought up to justify the threads hypothesis! The Quran don’t concern me one bit. Up until the moment is is used to further hate, intolerance and bigotry.
As for making it personal, that could be your projecting. I am simply arguing my case. I have nothing personal against you. In fact, I respect most of your posts.
Ok, I won’t argue this point.
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