You think Islam is normal and good because you are a Muslim.
But there is no dearth of bigoted individuals who will argue that it is "abnormal and antisocial" to practice Islam, and that it preaches violence and hatred. Like I said, they'll use many of the same arguments you are to rationalize their hatred of Muslims.
Again, not quite true Janabi....I'm a gori born and raised in US by parents of european descent....I think Islaam is good and normal because it IS. And so do the people who are educated enough to tell the difference between extremists and mainstream, yeah? There are both of these types in the USA I guess, but the majority of people I've met can tell the difference because they educate themselves about the reality of the religion, know what I mean?
And no matter HOW educated I am or how much I read, I see nothing normal about practicing a homosexual lifestyle. The two just cannot be compared in my mind. One is normal, the other is definitely not, the practicers of homosexuality while I support them in their endeavors to obtain benefits and to be able to live their private lives, they're still FAR from normal IMHO.
i think being gay/lesbian is disgusting and should be unwelcome among pakistanis and muslims because allaht ta'ala made men and women for a reason and put the opposite sex as a pair/jori for a reason too........
Just replace the word "homosexuality" with "Islam" and you'll have the same arguments intolerant bigots in the Western world use to defend their anti-Muslim beliefs.
No, not really. The arguments against homosexuality are not driven by ideological concerns, but rather moral concerns. I don't see homosexuality as a threat in itself, nor do I fear a "homosexual crusade", or anything of the sort. I see it as criminal behavior.
In fact, you trying to vilify my position, which is quite valid according to religious doctrine, can be seen in and of itself as an act of intolerance.
When hetrosexuality is ok to flaunt everywhere then whats wrong if homosexuals want some recognition? What you practice may be normal for you but it is no way a universal law of fact. As Freud said difference is some time just diffrence.
Well, I don't think those here who rail against homosexuality support unbridled heterosexuality.
Just wanted to say that discirmination against race which is creation of God cannot be compared with discrimination against homosexuality - God made no man or woman a homosexual. Period.
On the authority of Abu Saeed Al-Khurdari, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:
"Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart; and that is the weakest of faith." - related by Muslim.
According to the above, we should at least dislike evil actions - and yes, homosexuality is evil according to the teachings of Islam. And the 'live and let others live' attitude isn't exactly the foundation of a religion like Islam - that is more the American way of looking at things, i.e. sins. You are told to mind your business in Islam so long as there is no sinful public actions. Drinking alcohol in public, extramarital affairs and homosexuality - all committed in public become the business of the community it affects.
Well, I don't think those here who rail against homosexuality support unbridled heterosexuality.
Actually they do support the "NORMAL" behaviour of sexualty just by saying stuff like filthy and other derogatory remarks towards homosexuals. Gays do not flaunt their sexuality anymore than hetrosexuals but theirs is always under the question. In fact often gays are more careful in the public for their own saftey.Gay parade on the other hand is different issue and has nothing to do with sexuality but rights.
In fact, you trying to vilify my position, which is quite valid according to religious doctrine, can be seen in and of itself as an act of intolerance.
How is it "an act of intolerance?"
I'm not here to police your thoughts. You have every right to hold bigoted opinions against gays, Jews, Freemasons, Shias, Ahmedis, and any other group you dislike. I suppose you also have the right to indoctrinate your children to hate all the same groups you do. Conversely, I have every right to think your opinions are ludicrous. That's just part of living in a free society.
It's when you start calling for the societal persecution and mistreatment of these marginalized groups that I feel the need to condemn your behavior.
Actually they do support the "NORMAL" behaviour of sexualty just by saying stuff like filthy and other derogatory remarks towards homosexuals.
Well, normal is an accurate term, at least in the statistical sense.
Needless to say, the very social grouping of "homosexual" is defined by sexuality, or sexual orientation if you like...heterosexuals DO NOT self-identify as such, and the use of that term usually only comes up to contradistinguish between straight and gay people. I think that renders you point moot.
You in effect want to closet those who hold such views...you can't tolerate the traditional Islamic stance, and so you are bigoted towards it, and therefore conservative Muslims.
And if you think there is no social penantly to pay for expressing such views in societies that have opened up to homosexuality at the expense of religious thought, then you're living in a dream world.
We have competing bigotries here...only one can win.
No, not really. The arguments against homosexuality are not driven by ideological concerns, but rather moral concerns. I don't see homosexuality as a threat in itself, nor do I fear a "homosexual crusade", or anything of the sort. I see it as criminal behavior.
In fact, you trying to vilify my position, which is quite valid according to religious doctrine, can be seen in and of itself as an act of intolerance.
Just wanted to say that discirmination against race which is creation of God cannot be compared with discrimination against homosexuality - God made no man or woman a homosexual. Period.
On the authority of Abu Saeed Al-Khurdari, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:
"Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart; and that is the weakest of faith." - related by Muslim.
According to the above, we should at least dislike evil actions - and yes, homosexuality is evil according to the teachings of Islam. And the 'live and let others live' attitude isn't exactly the foundation of a religion like Islam - that is more the American way of looking at things, i.e. sins. You are told to mind your business in Islam so long as there is no sinful public actions. Drinking alcohol in public, extramarital affairs and homosexuality - all committed in public become the business of the community it affects.
Actually, scientists have found several genetic markers which lean toward a genetic disposition and cause for homosexuality.
In point, homosexuals are born that way.
But most here would immediately denounce any evidence provided because of their bias and bigotry.
That isnt quite the same Janab...While it is quite normal and actually a good thing to practice a religion, it is abnormal and antisocial to practice homosexuality. I can tolerate them and their lifestyle and I teach my boys tolerance of all people. But I DO NOT and WILL NOT teach them that homosexuality is normal. It IS NOT. Practicing a beautiful and peaceful religion like Islaam IS normal. Most people deserve respect and tolerance and some people deserve simply tolerance.
And like others have stated here, tolerance can go only so far. When you see those flaming homosexuals who feel it necessary to rub your face in it, they dont deserve respect OR tolerance. Keep your bedroom antics and preferences where they BELONG - in the privacy of your own bedroom. We dont need to know all about it and we dont want to know all about it.
Normal merely means average.
I have yet to see homosexuals who want to "rub your face in it." It's more often that people are INTOLERANT (even when they think they feel otherwise), and thus are more sensitive to actions they perceive.
We could go even further with the "keeping your bedroom antics in the bedroom," by saying that women who are noticeably pregnant shouldn't be allowed in public. With that belly we know you did the dirty, and we don't want to see that.
Actually they do support the "NORMAL" behaviour of sexualty just by saying stuff like filthy and other derogatory remarks towards homosexuals. Gays do not flaunt their sexuality anymore than hetrosexuals but theirs is always under the question. In fact often gays are more careful in the public for their own saftey.Gay parade on the other hand is different issue and has nothing to do with sexuality but rights.
Gays flaunt their homosexuality in public a lot more than heterosexuals do. No, they dont fear anyone or anything anymore. They might find it embarassing if their family or friends found out but thats it.
And yes, its always under question because its unnatural! Im sorry but being gay is not a natural inclination or how God made us. Its simply another dimension of sex, thats it. No more and no less. Can a man get another man pregnant? No. Can a woman get another woman pregnant? No. Its not natural. Now, they're trying to ask for couple rights because they like to have sex a certain way? I have nothing against them but to say its okay to be gay goes against the teachings of Islam.
I will not teach my child to hate anyone, ever. Hating anyone is wrong in itself. I WILL teach them the difference between right and wrong. I dont hate people who drink alcohol but I will not drink myself. That is the difference.
Gay pride at one point might have been for rights but now it isnt. If you went, you would know. Its absolutely vile.
wow, this thread has many different angles to it. I do see what you're saying MS....and I guess I have to agree with your words although what I was visualizing was a bit different. I live near NYC, I used to be in theatre and I HAVE seen a good number of those "rub your face in it" flaming homosexuals. I have also been a bit dismayed at some nearby NY school districts promoting the "my two mommies" type of books in GRADE school. THOSE are the things I am intolerant of.
I am of the firm beleif that homosexuality is inborn, that something went wrong in brain development or a genetic "mistake" happened. It goes against nature to be a homosexual and I do not think that they actually CHOOSE to be that way. And although the term "normal" does indeed refer to "average", I still firmly beleive that homosexuality is ABnormal, in the same way autism is abnormal.
Further, I think that homosexuals should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit. Without discrimination and with all of the benefits allowed to "typical" couples. Things like making sexually overt comments to same-sex employees or to publicly proclaim their sexual preferences is wrong. As is promoting as "normal" a two-mommy or a two-daddy family to grade school children. If we had such a family in our community, my kids would be taught to respect them and accept them and their differentness but they will NOT be taught that its normal. Its NOT normal.
A pregnant woman obviously cannot hide the fact. As many homosexuals cannot hide their preference. But neither should be flaunted kwim? NEVER have I seen a pregnant woman spout off that she is pregnant cause of the swinging from-the-chandelier sex party she had. But I HAVE seen (albeit rarely!) a small number of homosexuals pinch butts of their same-sex colleagues or workers and publicly and proudly talk of their sexual exploits.
P-squared, you;re right, those gay pride parades and activities get pretty overt and vile.
I have yet to see homosexuals who want to "rub your face in it." It's more often that people are INTOLERANT (even when they think they feel otherwise), and thus are more sensitive to actions they perceive.
We could go even further with the "keeping your bedroom antics in the bedroom," by saying that women who are noticeably pregnant shouldn't be allowed in public. With that belly we know you did the dirty, and we don't want to see that.
See how easy of a slippery slope this can be?
Please be a tad bit more specific about how these two are related? Homosexuality is UNNATURAL. Getting pregnant is NOT. Seeing the difference?
You can term people who do find homosexuality unnatural and uncomfortable as extremists, ultra-conservative, orthodox and what not. However, there are PLENTY of non-Muslims, which includes Christians and Jews, who are against homosexuality. What do you have to say about them?
Well, normal is an accurate term, at least in the statistical sense.
Needless to say, the very social grouping of "homosexual" is defined by sexuality, or sexual orientation if you like...heterosexuals DO NOT self-identify as such, and the use of that term usually only comes up to contradistinguish between straight and gay people. I think that renders you point moot.
I am sorry but I do not get you point. In most societies hetrosexuilty is a given, a norm. So yes if somethig is out side that norm,then obviously it would be noticed more. For example girl and boy kissing in public or on media its very ok and nobody even gives it a second thought but a gay or lesbian couple doing the same thing attracts more looks and attention. Also if some of us feel that homosexuals have this "in your face "kinnda attitude, the reason may be that an opressed group usually react in a strong way. Even though I still feel beacuse of our herd like mentality, their sexuality is more visible to us.
Gays flaunt their homosexuality in public a lot more than heterosexuals do. No, they dont fear anyone or anything anymore. They might find it embarassing if their family or friends found out but thats it.
And yes, its always under question because its unnatural! Im sorry but being gay is not a natural inclination or how God made us. Its simply another dimension of sex, thats it. No more and no less. Can a man get another man pregnant? No. Can a woman get another woman pregnant? No. Its not natural. Now, they're trying to ask for couple rights because they like to have sex a certain way? I have nothing against them but to say its okay to be gay goes against the teachings of Islam.
I will not teach my child to hate anyone, ever. Hating anyone is wrong in itself. I WILL teach them the difference between right and wrong. I dont hate people who drink alcohol but I will not drink myself. That is the difference.
Gay pride at one point might have been for rights but now it isnt. If you went, you would know. Its absolutely vile.
I do not have any problem with how you raise your kids. I was stating my opinion that if your faith forbids something then it is yours to follow. It does not apply to ppl who do not believe in it and are not the followers. What you do is normal for you and may be it is very bizzar for someone else. And excuse me for being a little rude here but may be in you Utopia gays do not have to worry but in reality they are still very much cautious in public. Go check the figuers on hate crimes against gays. I know your values would make you feel disgusted seeing naked gays and transexuals in gay prade but it does not disguest me or many other people. Why, because my values are different from yours. For your little argument about god making us the "straight " way...so who made gay ppl or do you think that it is some psychological disorder?? Biology is sexuality is two very different things and may be your god meant some of us to mate with opposite sex and some of us to have same sex relation.
I do not have any problem with how you raise your kids. I was stating my opinion that if your faith forbids something then it is you to follow. It does not apply to ppl who are not the followers.
*Thats nice but we ARE discussing my faith and its followers AND how homosexuality is being accepted/encouraged in a Muslim country as a norm when its NOT. *
What you do is normal for you and may be it is very bizzar for someone else. And excuse me for being a little rude here but may be in you Utopia gays do not have to worry but in reality they are still very much cautios is public.
*You can be as rude as you want, it doesnt affect anyone here. Its a forum on the internet...no one will cry about it...trust me. What reality are you living in????? Do you watch or even own a device called Television??? Try pushing the ON button and you will find the wonderful world of homosexuality on almost every other channel. They want to get married, have babies, partner health benefits, etc. They dont sound like they're scared of anyone finding out about their sexuality. Every gay person in the city makes it to Gay Pride in their underwear and you're telling me they're scared??? You need to get out more. *
I know your values would make you feel disgusted seeing naked gays and transexuals but it does not disguest me or many other people. Why, because my values are different from yours.
Yes, Im disgusted by it. We're not discussing your values here are we? We're discussing Islam, Pakistan and homosexuality. :)
For your little argument about god making us the "straight " way...so who made gay ppl or do you think that it is some psychological disorder?? Biology is sexuality is two very different things and may be your god meant some of us to mate with opposite sex and some of us to have same sex relation.
*Im not going to have the birds and the bees conversation here with you. *
Did you miss the topic of the thread or something???
I didn't miss the topic I stated my opinion that I consider homosexuality to be as normal as hetrosexuality. You picked to comment on my post so I directed my responce just to your particualr post. May be I get out more than you do because you are considring Tv as the ultimate reality here . I dont know where you live but my guess is in NY or some big cosmopolitan westren city? Because I doubt that you saw a gay prade in Texas or in mid west. It is truly shocking when you are complety denying the reality of hate crimes and gays being careful in public. Make friends with em and you will know.
Lastly are you saying that human biology and sexualty is the same? May be it is you who need to refresh your memory.
Anyway I think this is a useless debate because of the religion factor.