I didn't miss the topic I stated my opinion that I consider homosexuality to be as normal as hetrosexuality. You picked to comment on my post so I directed my responce just to your particualr post. May be I get out more than you do because you are considring Tv as the ultimate reality here . I dont know where you live but my guess is in NY or some big cosmopolitan westren city? Because I doubt that you saw a gay prade in Texas or in mid west. It is truly shocking when you are complety denying the reality of hate crimes and gays being careful in public. Make friends with em and you will know.
Lastly are you saying hiuman biology and sexualty is the same? May be it is you who need to refresh your memory.
Alright Bebo...if you look right under my name...it tells you where I am...CHICAGO. That is considered the midwest...and we had a big huge Gay Parade here complete with funny little party favors being passed around that resembled a man's you-know-what.
Its just as shocking to me that you dont seem to see homosexuality where you live as an everyday thing...like I said...you need to get out more. Maybe TV might help show you what is going on in the rest of the world.
As for being friends with them, Ive had homosexual friends. I dont agree with their lifestyle, period.
My point is, according to Islam its wrong. We should not be shooting these people, but we shouldnt be encouraging it either. Allah mentions Adam and Eve...not Adam and Benjamin. There is a reason behind the union of a man and woman producing a child. Two gay guys can try all they want, they will not be able to reproduce or continue life. This is where biology comes in.
You are right in Islam it is wrong and I am not saying otherwise. I missed Chicago but it is a very big cosmopolitan city so no suprise if there is gay prade there. But all I am suggesting that do some reality check yourself because TV is not the ultimate reality honey. In Chicago there are often reports of hate crimes against gays, and I am sure you know it. I dont know why you are denying it though. I am basing my opinions on statistical facts and real reports not on queer eye for straight guy or will and grace. This might help. http://www.hatecrimesbill.org/chicago_il/
I am done here as it is a stupid topic and no gay or lesbian is here to state what is true and what is not.
B) Gay Pride is held in TX also…isnt that a southern state? Hm.
C) No one is denying hate crimes. They exist just like rapes, murders, burglaries, etc.
D) TV was a suggestion to help you come out of whatever cocoon you’ve got yourself in right now. TV is not the ultimate source…what I see around me everyday is my source. Two weeks ago, on the Chicago Trolley, I saw a lesbian couple cuddling with a baby. How do I know they werent sisters? They gave each other a peck on the lips.
Off topic but I am sorry I called you honey its just a habit nothing personal(I think honey is a nice word).
Stop being so arrogant in assuming that I am some naive person who do not know any thing. I shared my opinion here couple with some fact repots you are very welcome to share yours. We can agree to disagree and having a diffrence in POV does not make you or me any superior (or atleast this is the way I feel).
Cheers.
*7:80We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
**7:81"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
**7:82And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"
**7:83But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind.
**7:84And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!
**7:87*"And if there is a party among you who believes in the message with which I have been sent, and a party which does not believe, hold yourselves in patience until Allah doth decide between us: for He is the best to decide.
Those muslims who believe in such acts and think its 'natural' to feel this way. Would they still call 'em self muslims after going against Allah's commandments!
You in effect want to closet those who hold such views...you can't tolerate the traditional Islamic stance, and so you are bigoted towards it, and therefore conservative Muslims.
And if you think there is no social penantly to pay for expressing such views in societies that have opened up to homosexuality at the expense of religious thought, then you're living in a dream world.
We have competing bigotries here...only one can win.
How am I forcing you to "closet" your views? Am I saying that you shouldn't be allowed to air your hatred of homosexuals publicly on this forum? Did I say that you shouldn't be allowed to pass on your hatred to your children?
Like I said, in a free society you're entitled to hold and express your intolerant and bigoted views. The only think I'm condemning is the absurd notion that homosexuals should be marginalized and outright oppressed by the government and society [these people apparently think they're being magnanimous when they state that they don't think gays should be dragged out into the streets and killed].
Those who demand the systematic disenfranchisement and oppression of any group don't deserve to live in a free and tolerant society.
Gays flaunt their homosexuality in public a lot more than heterosexuals do. No, they dont fear anyone or anything anymore. They might find it embarassing if their family or friends found out but thats it.
And yes, its always under question because its unnatural! Im sorry but being gay is not a natural inclination or how God made us. Its simply another dimension of sex, thats it. No more and no less. Can a man get another man pregnant? No. Can a woman get another woman pregnant? No. Its not natural. Now, they're trying to ask for couple rights because they like to have sex a certain way? I have nothing against them but to say its okay to be gay goes against the teachings of Islam.
I will not teach my child to hate anyone, ever. Hating anyone is wrong in itself. I WILL teach them the difference between right and wrong. I dont hate people who drink alcohol but I will not drink myself. That is the difference.
Gay pride at one point might have been for rights but now it isnt. If you went, you would know. Its absolutely vile.
What gay people have YOU been around? My gay friend was the victim of a hate crime last year where he ended up in the hospital because a group of homophobic thugs beat him up.
It's quite obvious that you have no clue about the gay community.
Oh really? Then, can you please explain why homosexuality is considered as a sin in Islam? And, it's not some tom, dick and harry's fatwa.
While you are at it, could you also explain why Hazrat Lut's (A.S) followers were punished for succumbing to homosexuality?
I made a point that homosexuality is genetic, and you ask me to explain how homosexuality is criminal according to the quran? Sorry dear, pay attention and stay on topic.
Please be a tad bit more specific about how these two are related? Homosexuality is UNNATURAL. Getting pregnant is NOT. Seeing the difference?
You can term people who do find homosexuality unnatural and uncomfortable as extremists, ultra-conservative, orthodox and what not. However, there are PLENTY of non-Muslims, which includes Christians and Jews, who are against homosexuality. What do you have to say about them?
On what basis do you denote homosexuality as unnatural? You do realize that homosexuality and bisexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom, don't you?
I don't give a fig who is against homosexuality. They're sticking their nose where it doesn't belong-- in the personal lives of consenting adults.
However, it does seem that those most uncomfortable with homosexuality are in the closet themselves.
It seems to be a trend :)
Alright Bebo...if you look right under my name...it tells you where I am...CHICAGO. That is considered the midwest...and we had a big huge Gay Parade here complete with funny little party favors being passed around that resembled a man's you-know-what.
Its just as shocking to me that you dont seem to see homosexuality where you live as an everyday thing...like I said...you need to get out more. Maybe TV might help show you what is going on in the rest of the world.
As for being friends with them, Ive had homosexual friends. I dont agree with their lifestyle, period.
My point is, according to Islam its wrong. We should not be shooting these people, but we shouldnt be encouraging it either. Allah mentions Adam and Eve...not Adam and Benjamin. There is a reason behind the union of a man and woman producing a child. Two gay guys can try all they want, they will not be able to reproduce or continue life. This is where biology comes in.
BAM!!!!!!!
That last paragraph is EXACTLY the crap that irks me to no end. When you equate sexuality solely with reproduction you demean the woman to nothing more than a sack of eggs and a uterus. We need zero population growth as it is.
And I can't imagine you having actual friends who are gay if you find them to be immoral and unnatural. People usually don't flock with those who find them disgusting.
^are you muslim? i ask for if you are not then it will be pointless for me to give you religious reasons. I have all the religious reasons and nothing more , for it is the religion that teaches us humanity.
no woman is ever demeaned by being a mother, it is the best gift the nature has endowed upon us. this is the most basic primal difference between men and woman. only stupidity cannot see the demise of species if homosexuality is to prevail.
I belive homosexuality to be an abnormality and deviance from nature. For those who say accept them but just not in my back yard, what goes around comes around. You cant say it is okay for another kid to be homosexual but not mine. That reeks of double standarads. I am a muslim alhumdolilah, I find the practise to be vile, disgusting and inhumane and at no point of my life do i want to 'accept' it. Yes it has been around as picoico stated but not from the beginning of universe.Or not for muslims anyway. People have been doing it no doubt but why should any sane person accept it. When the society declines to the level of accepting it, it is then the problem begins. May Allah protect human from such and unnatural evil and disgraceful act.
*NOTE: If you are a non-Muslim, please skip this post without reading anything it, because the following views are not for questioning your beliefs or point of view BUT ONLY for Muslims to consider in terms of their beliefs. *
The "Muslims" who amazes me the most are the ones who are able to develop the GUTS of questioning the words of Allah (swt) in the Quran by DARING to use the (so called) logic that is not in line with the words of Allah (swt).
Those who are trying to show "tolerance" to this sin and crime, are directly questioning the words of Allah (swt) when HE says:
[quote] 7:84 And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!
[/quote] ^ Allah (swt) didn't show any tolerance for them and you are not allowing us to "at least" criticize this act ?!?!
**
**If it is a medical problem and not their choice, then WHY would ALLAH (swt) punish them if HE MADE THEM homosexuals BY BIRTH. DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT ALLAH WOULD PUNISH THEM FOR SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR, BUT ALLAH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR (Ma'aazallah)?!?!? Allah never does injustice to anyone and would never punish anyone for something which was beyond their choice and control. Allah (swt) clearly stated IN THE QURAN that THEIR "CHOICE" WAS WRONG.
[quote] 7:81"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
[/quote]
So, please stop calling it a medical problem, because it is their personal choice and no one among us knows better then *OUR CREATOR. *
Off topic but I am sorry I called you honey its just a habit nothing personal(I think honey is a nice word).
Stop being so arrogant in assuming that I am some naive person who do not know any thing. I shared my opinion here couple with some fact repots you are very welcome to share yours. We can agree to disagree and having a diffrence in POV does not make you or me any superior (or atleast this is the way I feel).
Cheers.
Ok. Im sorry if I sound arrogant but the thread is about Pakistan being a Muslim country and how homosexuality fits into the picture for the future. We're looking at it from a religious perspective and from that POV homosexuality is considered immoral.
What gay people have YOU been around? My gay friend was the victim of a hate crime last year where he ended up in the hospital because a group of homophobic thugs beat him up.
It's quite obvious that you have no clue about the gay community.
Actually MS, Ive been around gay people quite a bit. The man I work for is gay and so is our VP. Im not clueless about it.
As far as hate crimes go...homosexuals arent the only ones experiencing hate crimes in the US. You make it seem as if they're the only ones being targeted here.
That last paragraph is EXACTLY the crap that irks me to no end. When you equate sexuality solely with reproduction you demean the woman to nothing more than a sack of eggs and a uterus. We need zero population growth as it is.
And I can't imagine you having actual friends who are gay if you find them to be immoral and unnatural. People usually don't flock with those who find them disgusting.
Wow, that is an interesting take on it. The point is simple: man and woman make a baby. Boy and boy do NOT. Girl and girl do NOT. If Allah swt considered homosexuality okay then men would have uteruses as well. He does NOT and therefore they do NOT. Its CRYSTAL clear.
My post said...I've HAD homosexual friends. Meaning, in the past.
[quote]
On what basis do you denote homosexuality as unnatural? You do realize that homosexuality and bisexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom, don't you?
[/quote]
I dont think we should compare humans to animals and say that just because it occurs in the animal kingdom it means its natural for humans as well. Arent there animals that eat their own feces? Arent there animals that eat their own babies? They are animals, we are humans, there is a difference. Doesnt mean that whatever animals do is automatically natural for us too
^ Well said. Besides that, animals are bound to follow their instincts while humans are given the capability to make a choice for themselves. That is why animals won't be held answerable for their deeds, but humans would be held answerable for the choices they make in life.
MS, I am 100% certain I don't live in the same galaxy as you do and I cannot be more glad about the fact.
You are right that it's not a religious forum. However, , though it is obvious it doesn't apply to you, for many people, religion IS a part of life. Moreover, I NEVER said homosexuality is a crime. I said it's a sin as per Quran.
I made a point that homosexuality is genetic, and you ask me to explain how homosexuality is criminal according to the quran? Sorry dear, pay attention and stay on topic.
This isn't the religion forum.
On what basis do you denote homosexuality as unnatural? You do realize that homosexuality and bisexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom, don't you?
I don't give a fig who is against homosexuality. They're sticking their nose where it doesn't belong-- in the personal lives of consenting adults.
However, it does seem that those most uncomfortable with homosexuality are in the closet themselves.
It seems to be a trend :)
If at least trying to follow Islam is translated into being "closeted", then I'm happy to be confined, closeted, and cocooned. I am just glad I'm not desperately trying to be a sheep in the herd which is actually a bigger trend mainly seen in Pakistanis these days :)
On what basis do you denote homosexuality as unnatural? *You do realize that homosexuality and bisexuality is rampant in the animal kingdom, don't you?
*
I don't give a fig who is against homosexuality. They're sticking their nose where it doesn't belong-- in the personal lives of consenting adults.
However, it does seem that those most uncomfortable with homosexuality are in the closet themselves.
It seems to be a trend :)
OK, am SERIOUSLY HOPING that you never meant what you actually wrote above. I don't believe why and how a human would compare himself/herself to animals. This is plain crazy! And if you actually meant it, please do speak for only and only yourself. I am sure others are happy being human and being compared to animals isn't amusing at all.
P.S. I do believe that there should be at least SOME difference between an animal and a human being because they are not THE SAME. what you are going to say next? that since pigs eat what they excrete out, we should start doing the same or at least ACCEPT those people who are following it? sheesH!!!!
^
You're missing the point. No one is trying to "compare humans to animals."
People have argued in this thread that homosexuality is "unnatural" and have tried to use biology to rationalize their hatred of gays. All MS in doing is demonstrating how ridiculous that argument is by pointing out the fact that homosexual behavior does exist in nature, and therefore cannot be labeled as "unnatural."