i have met many gays/lesbians in Pakistan and none of them have tried to shove it down my throat .
whew
anyways wishkamar, it just seems to be more public now, but its not new.
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
i don't see why we can't adopt a live and let live attitude? at no point in my life have i ever met a gay person who tried to shove their beliefs and behaviour on to me, so why would i want to do that to them? you don't have to participate in the gay pride parade or hear about it in the news- you have the choice to turn off the tv and take a different route into work if it bothers you so much.
the world is full of people with different beliefs from yours- does this mean the nazi's were on the right track with the holocaust? after all, instead of it being muslims "vs" gay people, it was blond/blue eyed people "vs" everyone else. whats the difference between their attitude and the attitude on display here?
"these creatures" as someone here put, are people too. and they were created by God, same as the rest of us. and they were given the same brains and intelligence as the rest of us were along with the same right to make their own choices. and unless people here can stand up and claim they're the perfect human beings and perfect muslims, i really don't think you can condemn gay people or anyone else, for doing what they do.
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - sound familiar?
Islam is a religion that requires you to think and engage your brain-- so perhaps there are better ways to spread the word about the religion and its positive points, instead of lining up the non-believers and shooting them. i think as Muslims we would be much better off if we were more open to religious discussion instead of simply saying yes or no to things. We're supposed to talk to people about our beliefs and explain our POV to them in a nice, rational, peaceful manner, and if they choose despite that to go ahead and do what they do, then its truly between them and God.... but Islam doesn't say go ahead and be discriminative and beat the **** out of everyone who thinks differently from you. if that truly was the case, then frankly, we'd be at war with every other group of people on this planet who isn't Muslim. Given the state of the world today, is that the right way to go about doing things?
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
I'm baffled that people think it's their business what goes on in other peoples bedrooms. Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time. It's ABOUT DAMN TIME that we accept these people and stop mistreating them.
Don't like discrimination against brown people? Then don't discriminate against homosexuals.
Fyi, there is a direct correlation between a lack of education and intolerance.
Get my drift?
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
Yes MS I do get your drift and do agree with it ... to some extent. But when elementary schools read the "my 2 mommies" stories to kids under the age of 10...I DO have a problem with that. Their life - the life of a homosexual - IS very different, it IS abnormal and I will not teach my kids otherwise. I WILL teach them acceptance of it...when they;re old enough. But sometimes the whole acceptance thing is taken way too far.
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
I have no problem with the live and live approach at all. Gay people can do whatever they want how they want...I dont care.
What I dont understand is how you can demand equality, rights and claim to be normal when you have a parade to celebrate your sexuality. I didnt go to the parade and have no interest in it. It was right by my office and a little hard to miss. There were men dancing around in teeny tiny speedos!!! How can that be taken seriously? They make their whole world look like an R rated movie and thats it! I work for a gay guy and he is the most HORMONAL person Ive ever met. He just talks about how he'd love to wear so-and-so's skirt and dance all night.
They dont take themselves seriously...how can I?
Anyway, this thread is about homosexuality=modernism. It seems like being gay is the IN thing these days and thats why you see so many gay people in the fashion industry. They are considered artistic, fashionable, fun and hip for some odd reason.
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
Those who think that we should "Live and let homosexuals live" without any criticism, because after all it is THEIR own life and we have no right to judge them, I have a simple suggestion for them:
When there is a major conflict of beliefs / thinking among different groups of people, what happens ? Lands are divided.
Give a separate land to all the gays and another land to all the lesbians and tell them to LIVE the way they want and reproduce their **OWN **generation without interfering in our lives, because we would also not consult them for reproduction of our coming generations. ONLY in this case you can say:"It is their own life, let them live it the way they want"
When they adopt the children of NON GAY parents and groom them in their OWN environment in spite of knowing that no NON GAY / NON LESBIAN parents would EVER wish their little children to be handed over to Gays or lesbian couples after their death. **<------HERE their being a gay/lesbian becomes a business of non-gay / non-lesbian people, because gays have no right to steal the generation of non gay people, as the right of reproduction has been taken away from them by NATURE
**There are many people I have come to know, who themselves admit that they were not born as gays. This attraction they developed after experiencing in their childhood, sexual abuse by a person of the same gender. WHO do we think are responsible for such an abuse and thus creating more gays in the society ? Non gay people ?!?!
I'm baffled that people think it's their business what goes on in other peoples bedrooms. Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time. It's ABOUT DAMN TIME that we accept these people and stop mistreating them.
Don't like discrimination against brown people? Then don't discriminate against homosexuals.
Fyi, there is a direct correlation between a lack of education and intolerance.
Get my drift?
Who is talking about what goes in any bedroom? I am talking about what they are up to out in the public. I've seen homosexuals people myself who behave normally with decent body language and I DO respect them for that.
However, it IS not the most comfortable sight when two men or women are making out in some park or mall or keep touching each other while walking. If they realize that it's making you uncomfortable, they blame you that you are discriminating against them because nobody would mind much if a man and a woman are kissing each other.
Some people don't get my point. The point is whatever your sexual orientation is, don't try to make a scene out of it.
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
There is one thing I'd like to mention which is actually very funny. If a man tries to be a chauvinist and all aggressive just because he is a man, we go OH WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ATTITUDE FOR? THIS IS THE AGE OF EQUALITY, YO!
When a man acts all girly girly and soft and mushy, we MUST respect, accept, and tolerate that because he is a human too and is entitled to behave like that if he wants.
HOW IRONIC!
Re: Homosexuality=Modernism????
but Psquared, sikh's have parades in toronto to celebrate their faith, and muslims gather in the sky dome to pray Eid namaaz, and then there's the annual santa claus parade and frankly, that should be the most vilified of all because santa isn't even real!!! geez. all these people and their fictional character parades- how dare they! and they dope the younger generation into believing in santa too!
seriously.
i can bet you anything that if we all just got over it and accepted that there will be homosexuality in this world, at any given time, because maybe thats one of the things given to us to test our faith, that the pride parades would peter out and stop because there wouldn't be such a big battle for acceptance. the more you make an issue out of it, the more of an issue it becomes.
you do what you have to in your house, in your faith, and with your kids to protect them, if you think they need protecting- but please in the process, don't generalize all gay people under the same "flaming homo" umbrella. thats not fair.
What? I thought Pakistan was a 13th century gayoon with mud houses! How can all this happen in Pakistan!!!
For Muslims who think that homosexuality is in existence since the start of mankind ..
not it aint … It is a filthy practice first started by qoam-e-LOT
Quran says
And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you? (surah 7 , ayat no 80 ).
And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: “Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. (surah 29 , ayat no 28)
And for those who think stopping people for such hideous act is a crime and we should have a ‘ live and let live ‘ attitude …
Quran says
When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said: “We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime. Surah 29 ayat no :31
So if stopping them from this exceedingly ugly practice is discrimination
NazoBilAllah was Allah guilty of discrimination when he destroyed the people of LOT ?
Dont you think that people are blowing things out of proportion. Homosexuality was alway present in every culture, its just that homos are comoing out of the closet now.
That's a part of the problem.
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I see no reason to hate homosexuals as long as someone is not trying to hit on me. Its their life and they have chosen how to live it, as long as they are not hurting anyone who is not interested, in my opinion its all fine.
[/QUOTE]
It's also illegal, within the context of the Country in question. Quite frankly, in a country like Pakistan, the closet was very spacious and large...there's no good reason at all that the public needs to recognize them in any way shape or form, especially given the religious rulings on the matter.
Now, this is strictly spoken as a matter of upholding long held principles established by religion. So I'd be the first to say that Pakistanis really ought to be railing against ALL the other people openly engaged in degenerate acts that are not at all linked to homosexuality. Never mind if an actor or a fashion model is gay, a multitude of film and straight models indulge in drinking, sex out of wedlock, etc. Why is this particular issue raising eyebrows?
I'm baffled that people think it's their business what goes on in other peoples bedrooms. Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time. It's ABOUT DAMN TIME that we accept these people and stop mistreating them.
It's not our business. So if these people wish to keep their affairs strictly within the confines of their bedrooms, then all are happy. Apparently this is not enough, as we now must accept these acts. Please don't on the one hand say that it's none of our business what they do, and on the other demand that we accept what they do!
According to religion, the acts the engage in is criminal. Period.
i don't see why we can't adopt a live and let live attitude?
It openly contradicts public mores. It violates long held religious beliefs. To name a few.
The fact is, demanding acceptance IS forcing the belief that homosexuality is okay down the throats of those who think it is a crime. So we're beyond live and let live. It is in effect saying that Muslims have no right to implement their laws or at least have their mores influence the law in any way shape or form, within their own lands no less. Strange.
[quote]
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - sound familiar?
[/quote]
Wrong religion. In any case, Christ's (modernist apologetics aside) point was that the people who were willing to throw stones were guilty of BIGGER sins themselves....that's why they all parted ways and let the matter drop. Many people here have not committed a sin as grave as homosexuality, as per the Quran and Islamic law, so...pass the stones around.
Is it the biggest sin? No. Is it the most destructive of behavior? Probably not. Does that imply we ought to tolerate it, and accept it? No, of course not. Anything that is a bigger issue is completely irrelevant to this one...two wrongs don't make a right, to quote another cliche.
[quote]
i think as Muslims we would be much better off if we were more open to religious discussion instead of simply saying yes or no to things.
[/quote]
If the Western world had not had this shift in attitude towards homosexuality (and it really didn't happen until the 90's), would we even be having this conversation? As Muslims, are we not obliged to think this through as per our religion, and not parrot or ape those whom we deem, in our own low self esteem, to be the masters of all that is modern? Fine, let us discuss...but let us not loose sight that in all honesty the impetus of discussion is a fear of how we look in the eyes of those in the West (through no fault of Westerners, no doubt), and not any rational discourse on what our obligations as Muslims are...
wishkamar it seems like you are making a direct correlation between gay people in paksitan being accepted more especially among the elite class and indecency rising in the pakaitan fashion industry.
is that why you are so khilaaf homosexual people
i really do not think there is a direct relaiton between our fashion industry change to bolder clothing and attitudes and homosexuals.
if gay people want to flaunt themselves than let them. so many other groups of people do all the time. the more people protest the more they will flaunt.
It openly contradicts public mores. It violates long held religious beliefs. To name a few.
The fact is, demanding acceptance IS forcing the belief that homosexuality is okay down the throats of those who think it is a crime. So we're beyond live and let live. It is in effect saying that Muslims have no right to implement their laws or at least have their mores influence the law in any way shape or form, within their own lands no less. Strange.
Just replace the word "homosexuality" with "Islam" and you'll have the same arguments intolerant bigots in the Western world use to defend their anti-Muslim beliefs.
but Psquared, sikh's have parades in toronto to celebrate their faith, and muslims gather in the sky dome to pray Eid namaaz, and then there's the annual santa claus parade and frankly, that should be the most vilified of all because santa isn't even real!!! geez. all these people and their fictional character parades- how dare they! and they dope the younger generation into believing in santa too! seriously.
*I agree with you. We have our own parades, Pakistan Day parades, India Day, Friday Prayer, etc. However, the difference here is we dont pass out namaz topis or publicize our sex life. If you saw what I saw, you would have been disgusted too SGC. All Im saying is if homosexuality is here to stay...they had better start taking themselves a lot more seriously. People look at their lifestyle as one big freak show because thats exactly how they portray themselves. *
i can bet you anything that if we all just got over it and accepted that there will be homosexuality in this world, at any given time, because maybe thats one of the things given to us to test our faith, that the pride parades would peter out and stop because there wouldn't be such a big battle for acceptance. the more you make an issue out of it, the more of an issue it becomes.
*Actually, I try to get used to it. I really do. I try to be very accepting and usually am. But most of the gay people I run into are men that act like women...in every regard including PMS! *
you do what you have to in your house, in your faith, and with your kids to protect them, if you think they need protecting- but please in the process, don't generalize all gay people under the same "flaming homo" umbrella. thats not fair.
*I dont think I could teach my children that being gay is alright. Its not and even homosexuals are having a hard time coming across as normal. Aside from a couple of people...every gay person Ive met has been a man acting like a woman. If they want equal rights, benefits and acceptance then they better start acting like their lives are about more than just a twist on sex. *
Just replace the word "homosexuality" with "Islam" and you'll have the same arguments intolerant bigots in the Western world use to defend their anti-Muslim beliefs.
That isnt quite the same Janab...While it is quite normal and actually a good thing to practice a religion, it is abnormal and antisocial to practice homosexuality. I can tolerate them and their lifestyle and I teach my boys tolerance of all people. But I DO NOT and WILL NOT teach them that homosexuality is normal. It IS NOT. Practicing a beautiful and peaceful religion like Islaam IS normal. Most people deserve respect and tolerance and some people deserve simply tolerance.
And like others have stated here, tolerance can go only so far. When you see those flaming homosexuals who feel it necessary to rub your face in it, they dont deserve respect OR tolerance. Keep your bedroom antics and preferences where they BELONG - in the privacy of your own bedroom. We dont need to know all about it and we dont want to know all about it.
That isnt quite the same Janab...While it is quite normal and actually a good thing to practice a religion, it is abnormal and antisocial to practice homosexuality.
You think Islam is normal and good because you are a Muslim.
But there is no dearth of bigoted individuals who will argue that it is "abnormal and antisocial" to practice Islam, and that it preaches violence and hatred. Like I said, they'll use many of the same arguments you are to rationalize their hatred of Muslims.
When hetrosexuality is ok to flaunt everywhere then whats wrong if homosexuals want some recognition? What you practice may be normal for you but it is no way a universal law of fact. As Freud said difference is some time just diffrence.