Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Please. Here's the summary:
1) Diwana doesn't understand that celebrating religious conversions to comply with the majority, in a country with a history of persecuting religious minorities, **sends the message **that other members of said minorities should also "get with the program" and convert.
Bold part is where the problem lies. The 'message' is ill-perceived, far fetched and simply 'assumed'.
Hence there is really nothing to understand. :)
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
You are trying to beat the dead horse here. Read above posts and discussion and next time make some sense to have an answer.
Deflection? I expect better from an undefeated debating champion. You are treading dangerous ground by framing the argument to pit Islam against Hinduism. Why are you asking the question in the first place? Implying that a fellow Pakistani who happens to be Hindu should convert is an affront to your country's flag. The white stripe symbolizes non-Muslims and is a commitment to their survival. Have you any respect for this? Why do you "prefer" someone to follow the Prophet Muhammad? More importantly, how does your 'preference' of someone else's religious orientation matter? I often "prefer" that you sthu, but will that happen? Unlikely, and I have made peace with the fact.
What message is this conversion meant to give the public? In a society where religion is a volatile issue, and minorities feel disenfranchised? In a society where a particular brand of Islam has begun to dominate the public space? Where the courts and police fail to protect citizens, especially minorities? Whether the conversion was forced, while significant, is a parallel discussion. If we establish it was consensual, would that validate this spectacle? No, because the message would still be that we don't celebrate differences, we seek to eliminate them. Defending a fool like Maya Khan, which is essentially what you're doing, leaves you no credibility. The onus is not on us to prove that broadcasting religious conversions amount to incitement/unnecessary provocation in a society where minorities are being forcibly converted. Indeed, in a society where Muslims themselves are targeted for non-conformism. This a fact, and much has been written about it. By not addressing this you are being disingenuous. How are you so sure that your Hindu countrymen and women do not find this offensive/worrisome? That they don't feel pressure to convert or become invisible?
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
I think this lawyer in Pakistan sums it eloquently. (Take note of his mention of Justice Rana Bhagwandas, former Chief Justice of Pakistan, now the chairman of the Federal Public Service Commission. An esteemed member of the legal fraternity, he’s far more qualified than any of us to comment on the realities of being a Hindu Pakistani).
"I have nothing against people changing religion from free will in a private affair, yet the message sent to an already beleaguered Hindu community is loud and visible — we do not like you as you are but will spare you if you cross over to the right path. There is everything cheap and pathetic about the display. One almost hopes that the mediocre pretentious woman tells us again in broken tones that the boy was a hired actor. She, with this display of cruel idiocy, has also upped the ante in the clerical racket in the television business, I fear, if the fake doctor is planning on a live execution of a non-Muslim to compete in the ratings now.
Imagine if you will that in a television programme in the United States, India or any place in the world, a Muslim Abdullah was converted to a Hindu Sunil. That would be as stupid as what Maya Khan did yet imagine our reaction. It would not have been merely silly, it would have a frontal assault, a grand conspiracy, it would have been an attack on Islam itself, jihad would have been the cry. Lahore and Karachi would have burned; Bar Councils would have announced strikes, Hindu and Christian places of worship all over the country would have been set ablaze, a dozen or so killed for good measure. Some cleric with extra cash would have announced a meaty reward for killing the newly converted, the host, their neighbours and their dogs, etc. This apparently is a one-way street, almost like the words of Hotel California, “you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave”. Before embarking on these expeditions of piousness, it is worth reflecting on the golden principle of antiquity, which dictates do unto others what you would have them do to you.
I can imagine the Hindus and other minority communities becoming edgy when someone like the impeccable Justice Rana Bhagwandas says that the Constitution makes non-Muslims “less-preferred citizens”. In fact, I will not be surprised if they do not merely become edgy but are in a state of outright frenzied panic. This comes from a gentleman who rose to become the senior-most judge of the Supreme Court; it is frightening to ponder about the feelings of ordinary non-Muslims. My Lord, Justice Bhagwandas uses very serene language as is his temperament in employing the term “less preferred” as opposed to being outrightly discriminated and often-times hunted. No non-Muslim is allowed to become the president of the country as stipulated by the Constitution or even the prime minister as the oath requires affirming the basic tenets of Islam. So basically the coercive mechanism is already in place for nudging them or perhaps, more accurately shoving them to convert, without Maya Khan making more of a fool out of herself (if that is possible) on national television.
It has been said that personal faith is like some other things, it is very good to have one, quite natural to be proud of it, try not to make a public exhibition of it and whatever you do, don’t shove it down the throats of our children."
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
I never claimed that, but let me ask you,
Is this the reason you are so adamant in not getting the point that, the show never had any content which should threaten anyone?
Now, delusional thoughts cannot be cured by mere suggestions and giving logical answers, do they? 
Another delusion of yours, like seeing something threatening for minorities in the show, despite NO evidence for it.
Which question?
You seem to be stuck on the idea which was thrown above by Med911.
“Letting minority stay minority at all cost for keeping the white color on the flag…regardless someone is willing to choose a religion which happens to belong to the majority” 
Where did you get that?
White color has two meanings: One representing and respecting the minorities (traditional) and other is Peace (Modern).
**You are talking utter nonsense here when assuming somehow I have no respect for those minorities who choose to belong minorities. **
Who cares, Religion is a personal matter right?
So why bother when someone freely converts… 
Why do you prefer that?
Do you feel threatened that you will somehow be refuted on your nonsense ideas? Me very harmless dear.
Oh the same old argument.
One show and too much drama. 
Next time these idiots who claim to be the **‘champions of minority feelings’ **will start crying why even have Islamic speeches/shows/captions or EID/RAMADAN celebration on TV since minorities feel left out, not welcomed and threatened’'. 
Dude! there are several shows on non-muslims celebrations on TV but you have to criticize muslims show for your own insecurities or perceptions.
I merely pointed out the delusional behavior of minorities representatives.
it is very saddening for Bhagwandas to even have this kind of attitude shown over a TV show which had nothing negative about any minority except what it is portrayed or perceived as in the media… to stop someone praising the personal choice of his/her life.
Now listen to yourself here again:
“yet imagine our** reaction**. It would not have been merely silly, it would have a frontal assault, a grand conspiracy, it would have been an attack on Islam itself, jihad would have been the cry. Lahore and Karachi would have burned; Bar Councils would have announced strikes, Hindu and Christian places of worship all over the country would have been set ablaze, a dozen or so killed for good measure. Some cleric with extra cash would have announced a meaty reward for killing the newly converted, the host, their neighbours and their dogs, etc.”
First of all you need to quit saying “we” and “our”.
You know why I am saying this so don’t even try…
Second,
You have given possible extremist attitude towards someone changing the religion over TV and are using that argument to support that somehow it is a bad idea to have these kind of shows.
Why even use extremist ideas to get support for your ideas?
Third: Bhagwandas (if he really said these idiotic remarks) should have known better not to incite but have minorities relaxed by merely citing that there is no evidence of forceful conversion so far and freedom of choice goes in both directions.
**Why not promote the freedom of expression and choice of religion? **
Now for other points you raised:
I already said the idiotic behavior of criticism needs to stop otherwise people will start questioning everything.
Even the basic requirements of being Muslim to be the president or PM of Pakistan is being questioned now?
Which la la land do you belong to my friend?
For your last paragraph:
If conversion is so good then why not in public?
Is this some kind of shameful act?
At least it would show the free will, otherwise someone may claim to have been forced.
**
In fact, all conversions should be in public so no question of forced conversion ever arise.**
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Don't bother with subtleties, Diwana no understandy.
Here's a better test: Diwana would you be ok with someone publicly renouncing the Prophet in Pakistan? How long do you think this guy would live?
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
People need to stop confusing personal choices, with shameful choices.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Don't bother with subtleties, Diwana no understandy.
Here's a better test: Diwana would you be ok with someone publicly renouncing the Prophet in Pakistan? How long do you think this guy would live?
Is this related to even remotely, with the idea of the show itself in question?
Are you one of those who only see this show as renouncing Hinduism? :D
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Is this related to even remotely, with the idea of the show itself in question?
Are you one of those who only see this show as renouncing Hinduism? :D
It's related because you seem to be all for voluntary faith switching. Forget Hinduism. Would you be ok with a Muslim renouncing Islam (and hence, the Prophet) on TV in Pakistan?
My guess is no. And therein lies the hypocrisy.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Koi Batlaaye Ke Hum Batlaayen Kia!
Do you realize what you just did?
You asked the question to me.
Then you answered that question by yourself.
And made a conclusion based on YOUR answer.
Man you crack me up!
My advice: Don’t be too hasty and desperate (and illogical) like chaibiskut just to prove me wrong.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
And once again, jawab nai deeya.
See that's how it's done people. You have to lead Diwana with baby steps, towards a simple question that he will refuse to answer, because the answer will expose his hypocrisy.
And if you think I'm wrong Diwana, then just answer the question I posted above. It's very simple.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
So desperate. You answered before I could even do that, so not my fault there.
Would you be OK with someone renouncing Islam or the prophet shown on TV?
Remember I am the first one who have been holding the champions of freedom accountable to their point of views.
But you, including many others never came forward to answer that.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
I had an inkling, but now I'm convinced you're on drugs, recreational or otherwise. I did not write that article, yet you're addressing me as the author. Hallucinations? Next you turn around and accuse a Hindu CJ of "incitement" for illustrating how the Constitution renders non-Muslims second class citizens - a statement he made unrelated to this story. You won't condemn discrimination, but you'll criticize minorities for pointing it out because they're - wait for it - endangering the peace. Then you go on to defend Maya Khan yet again for hosting a trashy show that she herself admits is scripted. Classy.
I don't think I've come across anyone like you offline. I wonder what happens in real life when you 'converse' like this with other people. Assuming they're not imaginary.
I know you desperately want to bury this quote, but I'm going to keep embarrassing you.
Would you rather see someone following hinduism, deny the prophet Muhammad PBUH or would you prefer someone following the prophet Muhammmad PBUH (rather than being a mushrik)?
Take a pick!
Why are you asking this if you "respect minorities" and have no issues with Hindu Pakistanis practicing their religion? You've answered Ghost's question. I guess that's a wrap.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
LOL… Bhoot? Stop rambling like a drunk and answer the question. How are U so certain he wasn’t forced to convert? YOU are the one who is making assumptions, I never said he was defiantly forced, i SAID IT SEEMS SUSPICIOUS! You however seem CONVINCED that he is converting by choice.
So prove he wasn’t forced, why are you so convinced? Its a simple question that your trying to dance around. Just answer the question, how are you so certain he wasn’t forced?
Yes, we don’t need people to convert. I hope no one converts. I prefer the richness of diversity.
You wouldn’t know a strong argument if it bit you in the arse.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Are we still talking about the same boy?
Because if we are... he and his family said in an interview that he willingly converted and there was no sort of pressure in him making his choice.. AND his family supports his decision.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Are we still talking about the same boy? Because if we are... he and his family said in an interview that he willingly converted and there was no sort of pressure in him making his choice.. AND his family supports his decision.
Well that settles it.. Pakistan is a paradise for all Hindus.
Hindus everywhere rejoice!
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
I had an inkling, but now I'm convinced you're on drugs, recreational or otherwise. I did not write that article, yet you're addressing me as the author. Hallucinations? Next you turn around and accuse a Hindu CJ of "incitement" for illustrating how the Constitution renders non-Muslims second class citizens - a statement he made unrelated to this story. You won't condemn discrimination, but you'll criticize minorities for pointing it out because they're - wait for it - endangering the peace. Then you go on to defend Maya Khan yet again for hosting a trashy show that she herself admits is scripted. Classy.
I don't think I've come across anyone like you offline. I wonder what happens in real life when you 'converse' like this with other people. Assuming they're not imaginary.
I know you desperately want to bury this quote, but I'm going to keep embarrassing you.
Why are you asking this if you "respect minorities" and have no issues with Hindu Pakistanis practicing their religion? You've answered Ghost's question. I guess that's a wrap.
1- My comment was a directed collectively including when you mentioned about this insane writer of the article. Read your earlier posts above as well. For example the one where you mentioned about we have become increasingly conservative society and post 262 where you consistently talked about we as if you or this writer should be appointed as the spoke-personalities of those who would welcome these kind of shows or even not get threatened whether they are in minorities or majorities.
Could you remind me where exactly you might be posting from? Anyways, never mind. :)
2- So being appointed as the CJ is like the second class citizen?
Mr. Bhagwandas showed a pathetic gesture to say the least.
3- What 'discrimination' or 'hatred' the TV show had in it? That's the question which no one could answer so far. THe show can bring harmony and soft corner towards a hindu in community.
4- Scripted? Does this mean the man did not convert but was an actor? Please bring the proof of it and I will be glad to discuss. I asked another guppie that and still waiting.
5- Regarding the quote: I stand by it, and waiting for direct answer from the person it was addressed to. A person who claims to follow the Prophet PBUH. There was no need to be so critical if that claim is true.
You quoted merely a part of the post and missed this point altogether.
6- There is no crime or disrespect in wishing/supporting for someone, to convert to the beliefs/religion of the person himself or herself if it is out of free will.
7- Prove me where I or the TV show even showed a slight hint of disrespect towards those hindus any minority who would like to stay in minority? I bet you cannot answer.
8- Also show me where I answered Ghost's question.
You and other people just want Hindus to stay hindus even if they freely wish to do so even in public.
And that is the real intention of your and others position and criticism. Psyah already mentioned that above.
Do notice that I ignored your idiotic and getting personal comments.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
LOL... Bhoot? Stop rambling like a drunk and answer the question. How are U so certain he wasn't forced to convert? YOU are the one who is making assumptions, I never said he was defiantly forced, i SAID IT SEEMS SUSPICIOUS! You however seem CONVINCED that he is converting by choice.
So prove he wasn't forced, why are you so convinced? Its a simple question that your trying to dance around. Just answer the question, how are you so certain he wasn't forced?
Yes, we don't need people to convert. I hope no one converts. I prefer the richness of diversity.
You wouldn't know a strong argument if it bit you in the arse. :D
Stay within the bounds of decency my friend. If you cannot discuss like a human being then better be quite! You have a tendency to get carried away and have been warned in another thread also.
Rest of your post has nothing new so it is ignored, it just shows your desperation and embarrassments.
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
^^^
Touchy touchy… You must have issues with your weight. I get it.
Don’t flatter yourself, I dont find anything you say worth getting carried away over.
Now stop crying and answer the question. Your obviously cornered so your resorting to childish whining!
Re: Hindu boy converts to Islam in Pakistan
lol… cute.