Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

LOL. The fairytale I was talking about is the ascension of Jesus and him being alive. No proofs but we have to believe it because you guys say so. I find that you guys are inteluctually dishonest since you keep making exceptions for Jesus just to make him fit into you narrative.

The bottom line is that these discussion have zero result. I will not be able to convince you and vice versa. So what’s the point? The only thing I ask of you guys is that learn to live and let live. You guys can’t reach for our throats, thanks to the internet, or this discussion would have been long over. Let me make a list so it’s easier to get my points across.

  1. We won’t be able to convince each other so what’s the point of discussing this stuff?
  2. We don’t care if you consider us non-muslims as long as you don’t force us to consider ourselves non-muslims.
  3. Please convince your fellow ummah brothers to start acting on the usva of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) instead of Abu-Jahal.
  4. Let us convince people that we are on the right path without fearing for our lives and you can do all the preaching to us to bring us to your ‘real’ Islam.
  5. La-ikra-ha fi-d-deen. and la-kum deeno-kum wa-li-ya-deen

Thank you very much.

p.s. nice swipe there psyah. can’t hold it for too long can we? LOL

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[5:117] “I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things

We talked about why I say it means death. more than 15 verses in Quran using that word , and in every verse it is to be taken as death.. so is the case in this verse.

[3:144] And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

all messengers have passed away before him. It is the same verse that was recited to Umar(ra) upon Muhammad PBUH death by Abu Bakr(ra). First ijmaah of ummat on this verse. None said Jesus(as) was alive.

[25:21] And We never sent any Messengers before thee but surely they ate food and walked in the streets. And We make some of you a trial for others. Will you *then *be steadfast? And thy Lord is All- Seeing.

All prophets were just like us.. they used to eat food and used to walk in the streets. The Allah says:

[5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers* like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. **They both used to eat food*. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.

They both used to eat food. Now they dont. If Mary doesnt eat food because she died, then Jesus(as) died too because he doesnt eat anymore.

[21:34] We granted not everlasting life to any human being before thee. If then thou shouldst die, shall they live *here *for ever?

None has given everlasting life before Muhammad PBUH. He died, so did prophet Jesus(as). It also mentiones ' shall they live here for ever?" pointing to earth. none can have everlasting life on this earth. The everlasting life is for the hereafter. For Earth Allah says :

[77:25-26] Have We not made the earth so as to hold, the living and the dead?
in another verse Allah says.. 2:36 and for you there is an abode in the earth and a provision for a time.In another verse Allah almighty says : [7:24-25] He said, ‘Go forth, some of you* being *enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time.’ He said, ‘Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die, and therefrom shall you be brought forth.

[17:94] ‘Or thou have a house of gold or thou ascend up into heaven; and we will not believe in thy ascension until thou send down to us a book that we can read.’ Say, ‘Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as a Messenger.’

Muhammad PBUH could not go to heaven to get a book so that non believers could read it. There is no mention anywhere about this verse in which non believers said Jesus did go to heavens, why cant you? or any argument in regards to this verse. It is as crystal clear. If you find flaws in it, then you are not debating with me, but infact debating with Allah and denying the meaning of these verses. I hold no responsibility for that.

[36:68] And him whom We grant long life — We revert him to a weak* condition of*creation. Will they not then understand?
**[30:54] *It is *Allah **Who created you in *a state of *weakness, and after weakness gave strength; then, after strength, caused weakness and old age. He creates what He pleases. He is the All-knowing, the All-Powerful.

Jesus cannot come back. If he does, he will be 2012 years of age.. and will have his condition weakened. Why is it that he must come to earth to die? the process of aging does not stop on anyone wheresoever you are. Jesus(as) is no exception. If you keep trying to find flaws in the verses im presenting, then you are indirectly defending the status that Christians gives you Isa(as). That belief is the dangerous one of them all. i.e: thinking hes someone more than a human, and perhaps having Godly powers etc..Please refrain yourself from following shirk.
Then Allah says :
[33:63] Such has been the way of Allah in the case of *those who passed away before, and **thou wilt never find a change in the way of Allah.
*
SubhanAllah. Those who say allah creats laws and then breaks them is utterly lying on the name of Allah. Allah is paak from this. He keeps his promises. He does not forget the laws he creates for himself. Allah does not put burden on a soul that it cannot bare. Allah does not play around with us. He is the best of the keeper of promises. He is pure of all things associated with him as lies.

[16:20-21] And those on whom they call beside Allah create not anything, but** they are themselves created*.*They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised
*
We know Jesus(as) is amongst many on whom people call on beside Allah. Allah is not just talking about idols as some may think.. but he says those are themselves created by Allah. Idols are made by humans.. humans are made by Allah almighty. Jesus (among many other) is one who ppl call upon beside Allah,but Allah says.. they are themselves created.* They are dead. ** Then Allah says they know not when they will be raised. Idols dont be raised. Its the humans that does.. ohh , and not physically !.. their souls.. please !

[2:115] To Allah belong the East and the West; so withersoever you turn, there will be the face of Allah. Surely, Allah is Bountiful, All- Knowing.

Allah is everywhere. Not just in heavens. Where Jesus(as) was being crucified, Allah was there too. He needed not to raise him to any particular destination.

[5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers* like unto him*had indeed passed away before him

Messengers like him have passed away. No where is it mentioned ' messengers like him have passed away except him', because the full verse says that he used to eat.

So here you go.. for everyone to see.With very little commentary from my side. We as muslims should not only read Quran like a parrot but also need to understand the teachings of it. Please come back to Quran and spread the true message of Quran, and not be with christians by having this belief. Jesus(as) was a pious prophet of Allah and that is it. Insisting that hes still alive somewhere in outer space is a very illiterate concept and must be discarded. Wait for Messiah(which is mentioned in ahadith), who will be born in Muhammadi shariyah, as Islam is very much capable of giving birth to a prophet. We need not an outsider to be an ummati of Muhammad PBUH and then tell us all what Islam teaches.. as this very concept of joining a previous prophet with the newer one also does contradict Quran.

PS: that was just some verses from quran, if need arise, i can also present to you some ahadith which gives indication that Isa(as) has passed away.

Pleas do read this post as i spent a lot of time on this. JazakAllah.

Har taraf awaaz dena hai hamaara kaam
**Jiski fitrat naik hai wo aae ga anjaam e kaar.**

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not needed after the cleanup

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Dear friends

It is beyond argument that the quran does not distinguish between human beings ie all humans are human and whatever they are and did it was all out of humanity. Nothing supernatural or out of the extraordinary.

The only distinction made between people and prophet is that we are told prophets have been sent the message by Allah.

Existence of God, origin of universe and mechanism of revelation are issues that are beyond direct observation but they can be proven indirectly and remember proof is not direct observation but explanation of existing facts eg the universe exists and the quran exists. If the quran is the book that seems extraordinary then what other explanation can explain its existence than the fact that it is word of God? Likewise if we have no other explanation how the universe came to existence then what is wrong with accepting the claim that God made it? So if the existence of universe and the existence of the quran do not prove existence God then nothing else can.

However this does not mean all other make beliefs are true eg nonsense stories about miracles by prophets etc. These were inventions of mullahs to divert people from actual deen that came to guide people how to live in this world properly because people did not know how to live in this word properly and they still do not know. Look at our word and think on this issue. Why we need a book from God if we know how to live properly in this world? Why we need guidance of our parents and teachers if we know how to live and do things in this world ourselves? Why we think that we do not need quran about living in this word but about something else? If the quran is all about living in this world then read it for that purpose. It is because we are forcing quran to be something that it is not. This is why all the problems relating deen and mazhab.

If we the people who can read and write and have a little bit knowledge are so foolish then how can we blame others who cannot even read and write when they believe in all sorts of nonsense? Please get hold of yourselves and stop being silly show you have grown up and lead the nation with help of the quran and scientific approach to life.

Allah is a tyrant and he has set up a test for mankind and he is going to throw us all in hell are all big lies of mullahs to derail us from actual lessons of the quran. The quran prepares us as individuals and as communities as organised people with management administration to run things smoothly for the good of all.

Read the quran in its context and you will see how story of jesus makes sense. It has nothing to do with his miracle birth and death etc.

To realise that I am talking sense I want you to ask a very basic question of yourselves, is there a common thread through out the quran? How do you think the quran is organised in to a book? Are its surahs interconnected, if so how? These are the kind of question that people need to raise and try and find answers for from within the quran. Let me run you through a few end surah and compare my rendering of them to mullahs’ rendering of them and see which is real and which is nonsense.

Surah 107 AL-MA‘UN= the mutual cooperation

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] Have you considered the people who deny the benefits of installing the divine constitution for others?

[2] Such as those who harshly repel individuals who need support

[3] and they do not work for providing livelihood for those who need it.

[4] Bad news is for people who are connected with each other this way,

[5] those who refuse to shoulder their responsibilities towards each other as a community,

[5] those who do good to others just for show to fool the masses

[6] because in private they refuse to share with others even the necessities of life.

Surah 108 AL-KAUTHAR=the prosperity

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] Indeed, We have blessed you with a constitution for peace through progress for prosperity.

[2] So follow strictly the constitution of your Lord and sacrifice your comfort for the welfare of the mankind.

[3] It is only your opponent who will be barring himself from the constitution for peace and prosperity of humanity.

Surah 109 AL-KAFIRUN – THE OPPONENTS

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] Say, O you the people who reject and oppose constitution of Allah without any due consideration!

[2] I do not approve goals that you serve due to harm and destruction they cause mankind

[3] yet you do not serve the constitution that I serve even when it is for your own peace, progress and prosperity.

[4] However I will never approve harmful and destructive aims that you serve,

[5] even if you do not serve the constitution that I serve.

[6] For you are consequences for following your goals just as for me are for following my constitution.

Surah 110 AN-NASR – the DIVINE HELP

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] O messenger! When result of Allah’s help appears because door of enlightenment is flung open

[2] and you see people coming to support the rule of Allah in multitudes.

[3] Then work hard to establish sovereignty of your Lord in the land and overcome all problems thereby. Surely He is ever ready to turn to people through His revealed constitution.

Surah 111 AL-LAHAB – THE FLAME OF HATRED

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] The rule of ultimate hate monger will vanish and so will perish such a one himself!

[2] His wealth and whatever he earns will secure him not.

[3] Soon will he suffer the painful agony,

[4] and so will his following, the follower of myths and make beliefs

[5] which will be like a rope of palm-leaf fibre around its neck unless it accepts rule of Allah.

Surah 112 AL-IKHLAS= THE ULTIMATE REALITY

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1]Proclaim! He, Allah is the only one who has right to rule the universe,

[2] because Allah is eternal,

[3] He begets not so none can inherit His kingdom nor is He begotten so he did not inherit the kingdom of anyone,

[4] so none is like unto Him, for He is only one of His kind, the unique ruler.

Surah 113 AL-FALAQ – the DAWN OF ENLIGHTENMENT

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] Proclaim that I seek security for mankind through advice of the Lord of the dawn of enlightenment

[2] from the harmful effects of all that He has created,

[3] and from the harmful effects of darkness of ignorance when it takes over peoples’ minds,

[4] and from the harmful actions of those who cause animosity between mankind for their own ends,

[5] and from the harmful actions of the covert operator when he complicates matters that are simple out of envy or jealousy.

Surah 114 AN-NAAS – THE PEOPLE

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] Proclaim, I seek protection for the mankind against harm and destruction through constitution of the Lord of the mankind,

[2] the sovereign of the mankind,

[3] the God of the mankind,

[4] from the prompting of the plotter against divine rule

[5] who tries to raise destructive ambitions and harmful desires in the minds of the people against each other,

[6] from among the influential people and from among the influenced masses.

Can one see anything in these surahs that points to mullahs nonsense? The quran is preparing people to organise into a good human society basing themselves upon the quran as its constitution. We are very clearly told that if we do not do that we are not going to get our problems solved.

Let us look at the first 9 surahs of the quran in their own context. The important point to remember is that quran is a teaching or lessons for the prophet and the people as to how to solve human problems. This means analysing the problems and offering solutions. Very scientific approach 15 centuries back. If you are not aware of these basic things then quran is not going bto be of much help because it is not a book for babies or baby minded people. It is like a street map which can only be used by those who enable themselves to read the street map and once they can then it guides them. Likewise the quran is map about from where an individual starts his jouney of life and how he develops into a human being and what are his needs and wants along the way till his journey ends till the new beginning. Next is need for individual humans to interconnect, interrelate, become interdependent properly ie having sense of social rights and responsibilities. What are problems in the way of bringing people together and how those problem can be removed so that people could come together and cooperate to make this world a better place for themselves. Next is if they come together how do they organise and manage themselves and resources. What problems are involved in setting up administrations for management? That is selecting individuals and giving them training and setting up structures and systems and procedures and practices etc. If you have this in mind then you will have no problem understanding the quran. Why you need all this awareness? Because the quiran is a divine constitution not a religious mumbo jumbo of mullahs. It is therefore important for us to know what a constitution is supposed to contains and that is what the quran contain ie the quran is divine constitution of islam for mankind or that quran is a book that is road map for peace, progress and prosperity of mankind. This is why it contains lesson for people to learn and get on with the set out tasks. This is how you come to know that mullahs deliberately misinterpret the quran and misrepresent it and thereby mislead masses.

Islam is rational and a deen not a mazhab are great points and ummah owes a lot to people like sir syed and iqbal. Our task was made easy by these two major contributors.

It is now up to us the people of the ummah to prove to the rest of mankind that the quran is divine revelation for purpose of peace, progress and prosperity of mankind.

I found the connection between the first nine surahs of the quran very interesting ie surah one is divine proclamation ie Allah is introducing himself and seeking agreement of the mankind that they will not live by any other rule than the one told in the quran (an agreement or a covenant between God and mankind) It gives us the purpose of the rest of the quran and the purpose of things that Allah discuses in the quran eg he talks about communities before us to tell us what happened when they implemented the divine constitution or did not implement the divine constitution. Leaving us in no doubt that peace is not going to be achieved that easily unless people follow the quran.

Here it is told why the quran must be understood and installed as a constitution because Allah created everything and sustains it therefore by this right he has the right to advise people as to how to use what he has created for them.

Coming to surah two, here Allah is telling us why people fight between themselves and can those fights be stopped. It is because the quran wants to unite mankind therefore it is telling us the reasons why people fight so that by removing those reasons people could be brought together. Then the quran brings in stories of past people ie what were fights between them and how they solves their problems.

surah 3 is about individual and society. Here we are taught why individual is important and why society is important for our survival and example of bani israel is explained and we are told how past individuals were brought together as society. Again what problems face individuals and what problems face societies and what mechanism can bring solutions and so a community can come about.

Surah 4, is all about setting up of communities and their administrations so that people could live as a community. Here again the quran explains what administration is and what community is and what mechanisms are needed to organise them in to an administration with subordinate administrations and their vertical and horizontal structuring and interlinkage for smooth functioning. All related things are discussed in great detail eg how to train people and what kind of people to choose for the task and so on and so forth. Then again stories of past people are told about the same thing.

in surah 5 the need and importance of constitution and rule of law is emphasised and related things are discussed. There end the organisational lessons.

Next in surah 6 start lessons regarding progress and prosperity ie man is taught what is progress and what is prosperity and what are the mechanisms whereby all this can be done. In other words once you have an organised society then its target is set ie what it should aim for and how by working hard it can achieve that aim.

Surah 7 is about reaching the heights of excellence as a society. Likewise surah 8 is about producing surplus and having good economic basis as a community. After working hard society is told to bring together the fruit of its labour and then divide it into two main parts using one and keeping other as reserve for emergencies etc. Then it tells to split the part to be used into two ie one for distribution and other for all other purposes eg research and exploration for purpose of progress of society so that as society grows it plans ahead so that it is not overwhelmed eg reproducing more than it can care for to put it simply. Surah 9 is about general amnesty ie people who fear spread of islam take up arms against muslim society and they are told that if they lay down their arms then they will have amnesty and become part of community like everyone else already is. Common man will be happy with islam but not the ruling elite because islam will take away its slaves from it. Uprising will result everywhere once people become self aware. This is why ruling elite employs mullahs to do their dirty work for them and get paid for it and masses remain backward for use and abuse of ruling elite. This the reason these people attack islam because they want to keep their hold on power and they want to keep lid on things making fool of people using various means and methods.

So you can see there is definitely a thread running through out the quran and it is a very well organised book.which mullahs turned into mumbo jumbo with their nonsense make belief interpretations to deliberately mislead people in order to suit their agenda. This act of mullahs is so obvious that it jumps out at the reader of the quran. In other words mullahs are easy to catch red handed how they twist quranic text from its clearly state purpose.

I think if we leave mullahs behind and get on with trying to understand the text in context of the quran that will be great. I know it is a very difficult task but reward is great because it brings internal satisfaction. Also if we managed to understand the quran in its own context then it could be a great service to humanity because this book has all the solutions man is looking for.

Likewise take the end surahs. Say last surah 114, see how it bring us back to beginning surah 1.

Surah 114 AN-NAAS – THE PEOPLE

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[1] Proclaim, I seek protection for the mankind against harm and destruction through the rule according to the constitution of the Lord of the mankind,

[2] the sovereign of the mankind,

[3] the God of the mankind,

[4] from the prompting of the plotter against divine rule

[5] who tries to raise destructive ambitions and harmful desires in the minds of the people against each other,

[6] from among the influential people and from among the influenced masses.

Here it is very clear that book ends with message that security of man lies in the book=constitution of Allah.

This shows that entire book is very well interconnected and emphasising one or the other aspect of same thing ie it has something to do with mankind and Godly constitution for it to organise accordingly for purpose of peace.

It should leave one in no doubt what is really going on in our world and divided the humanity is and why and how we all are responsible for this nonsense divide and its resultant painful suffering.

Hope this is of helps, regards and all the best.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/522010-have-we-understood-the-quran-properly.html

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In some cases we must take tawaffee literally due to the verses and setting.

Peace Mr.Popat

No ... I said all of the places where tawaffee is used it means "taken up" and only is supposed to be taken ... It is induced that death takes place on 2B before the taking up takes place ... But the proof that tawaffee does not infer death is found in the 2A meaning ... Since sleep is the pre-condition before a daily tawaffee ...(taking up).

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Peace chacha_Ghalib

Now either we are intellectually dishonest making exceptions for Isa(as) without evidence ... Or we are being honest with our narrative, which is evidence and means we are required to make those exceptions, especially where the etymological structure allows it ...

You can't have both ... We are either dishonest without evidence or honest with our narrative ... !!!

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4:78 : Wheresoever you may be, **death will overtake you**

Allah takes away the souls of human beings at the time of their death; and during their sleep of those also that are notyet dead. And then He retains those against which He has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect.

a what does 'taken up' in the other verses mean then? if not death? You fail to provide me even just one verse, or ahadith in which the word 'tawaffee' is used which means taken up in its literal sense.

al baqarah - 234, 240
al imran 193
an nisa 15
an nisa 97
al inaam 61
surah yunas 46
surah yusaf 101

These are the verses in which you translate as 'taken up' but fail to tell me what that taken up implies to? physical or their souls? Because, remember, you cannot just say there are '3' ways of Allah taking up someone. In the verse above, God only takes away soul in two occasions :

1) Sleep
2) Death

Point to be noted here is >> in both of these occasions, the body itself remains on earth. Where did you come to a conclusion, that Allah's 3rd way is to take someone bodily alive? I am providing you verses, but you're just asking me to assume it ?

Other than the verses i provided , here are 2 verses from Quran in which the word, tawaffee is used, which i will copy here :

12:101 : Let death come to me in a state of submission *to Thy will *and join me to the righteous.’

Not take me up physically.. it will not make an iota of sense , if in that verse you take it as physically take me up.

Here is another verse where tawaffee word is used :

[16:33] Those whom the a**ngels cause to die **while they are pure. They say: ‘Peace be unto you! Enter Heaven because of what you used to do.’

Angels send peace on them and will make them enter heaven because of what they used to do. Allah does not send anyone heaven or hell until and unless their appointed time has come, as there still is possibility one can follow wrong path upon coming back to earth. It must mean death. If not, then please provide me with your translation of verses.

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You're following your molvi sahab and what your forefathers have been believing in thus far. There is no other possible explanation as to why you should stick to that belief when really you dont know how to convince anyone from Quran about why you believe what you believe and whether or not such a thing has ever happened before. Its just a fairytale. None has ever been to heaven alive, none has ever come back alive from it. Your 100 generations will keep believing in it and die but none will see anyone coming from skies bodily alive. Do not follow the footsteps of Jews, who are still waiting for the literal fulfillment of all thats written in their scripture and has become accursed. Muhammad PBUH once said that im seeing my ummah being resembling to jews, so much so as one shoe resembles the other.

I invite you to open your heart to the truth. May Allah be with you.

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Peach chacha_Ghalib,

I think you done here. Now plz leave space for others.

[quote="“Mr.Popat, post:19, topic:253343"”]

You and I both are followers of Islam. We both are followers of Muhammad PBUH. We both consider him to be khataman nabiyeen, the seal of the prophets.

You have no problem Isa(as) to come again, but call it fitnah when in Islam someone claims to be a prophet.

Bodily coming back of anyone from skies is a fairytale and the sooner this belief is discarded, the better it will be for Islam.

Please read my posts, from another angle. In that thread, i’m assuming if we believe jesus(as) does come back bodily, what are the things that would go against the Quran and ahadith, and how he cannot be follower of Muhammad PBUH.
Everyone is welcome to read my posts here or in the thread i posted the link of.
[/quote]

Peace Mr.Popat,

As you wrote (in red text), therefore I need to know:

1- Where in Qur’an, it is written that Hazrat Isa a.s. died? If you believe he died natural death than how you explain this verse "That they said (in boast),“We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise", where Allah SWT said they killed him not, nor crucified him but He raised him (Isa a.s.) up unto Himself?

2- Hazrat Isa a.s. is a Prophet and he will remain a Prophet and will came back same as a Prophet NOT as newly tagged Prophet nor as a new born. About this the hadith were quoted by psyah bhai and in various hadith Hazrat Isa a.s. called as ‘Isa Ibn Maryam’. Any view?

Note: There are many questions I would like to ask but are not allowed as per policy/rules of this forum so in return I hope your answer will be according to the prescribed policy/rules.

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Peace Mr.Popat

Verse 12:101 correct translation is:

Take me (while I am) a Muslim, and join me with the righteous. (Here take is meant for the soul) so the meaning of the translation is:

Take (my soul, while in the state of being Muslim) and join me (my soul) with the righteous.
It is most likely to be the time soon AFTER death or either side of death … but it is not equivalent to death itself … It’s like walking from one side of the river to the next by a bridge and saying that the bridge itself is the same as walking to the other side of the river …

(There is no Arabic word mawt here which actually translates to death.)

In the translation you have given it seems that “death is coming as a Muslim” not that death comes to the Muslim soul" …

Correct translation of 16:32

"Those who are taken by the pure angels … "

Here the meaning of the “taken” is those (souls) that are taken … (after death) because the rest of verse states paradise so we know this is referring to a time in the Hereafter.

Verse 2:234 - Those who are taken from you …
Verse 2:240 - Those who are taken from you …
Verse 3:193 - And take us with the Righteous
Verse 4:15 - … Until death takes them (females plural) … ALERT vital clue in this verse …
Verse 4:97 - Indeed, those who the angels take …
Verse 6:61 - … Until, when comes, to one of you, death takes him … ***ALERT vital clue in this verse …
***Verse 10:46 - Or We take you …

As you can see all of the verse the meaning of “tawaffee” is “take” … it cannot be “death” … in any of them … but “death” is implied by the context only … in some cases where death is explicit then in that case the “taking” definitely cannot mean “death”, but means something that is happening as a result of death …

4:15

Hatta, Yatawaffaahunn Al-Mawtu …

If tawaffee meant death then this ayat is saying …

**Until death they die … ** :confused: Come again …

Similar is the case in 6:61 …

Tawafee means TAKE … and the similitude is as in English we can see from the context what type of “take” is meant in the same way we can see that with Arabic …

“Take a break”
“Take this”
“Take a fall”
“He was taken up”

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A better analogy could be when we get seized ... because death seizes people and when people are seized by the police the whole person is taken away ... but when death does it, only the soul is taken away.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I will give you a very simple explanation to it. I really hope you do understand.

In jewish tradition, if a prophet is hanged or is crucified, it is thought to be taken as an accursed one. It is mentioned in their scriptures. Jewish wanted to kill Jesus(as) by crucifying him. However, in Quran it has made clear for everyone that they(jews) did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear to them as one crucified. Which means, Jesus did not get killed or crucified by the hands of jews. That is very clear. The word you're translating as 'allah raised him', is 'rafa'a'. It means exalted ones status, or exalted oneself in rank. It is very unfair to use one word and translate it your own way for "ONE" verse but when the same word is used many many times in Quran or even in ahadith, it means 'raising ones status'. I will give you some verses in that word as well.

There is no mention of physical body taking up in that verse. There is no mention of heaven, nor is there any mention of even sky. It is your assumption that he went to heavens bodily alive. Where is it written? On the contrary, when Allah said "allah exalted him to himself', it means exalted his status and have given death.

If a person is not killed , nor crucified, is it then automatically understood that one is then gone to heavens physically alive ?

When the word 'rafa'a' is used anywhere in Quran or ahadith, it has always meant as in status. Please see the verses below and please do confirm it.

[19:57] And We** exalted him** to a lofty station. <<< this one is for Hazrat Idris (as).

[7:175-176] And relate to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Signs, but he stepped away from them; so Satan followed him up, and he became one of those who go astray.And if We had pleased, We could have exalted him thereby; but he inclined to the earth and followed his evil inclination....

[24:36] This light is now lit in houses with regard to which Allah has ordained that they be exalted and that His name be remembered in them. Therein is He glorified in the mornings and the evenings

[58:12] O ye who believe! when it is said to you, ‘Make room!’ in your assemblies, then do make room; Allah will make ample room for you. And when it is said, ‘Rise up!’ then rise up; Allah will** raise those who believe** from among you, and those to whom knowledge is given,** to degrees of rank**. And Allah is Well-Aware of what you do.

then there are ahadith and duaa's in which the word rafa'a is used and is only meant raise by rank and status, and not by bodily. Please do check the verses im providing you and let me know what it is that you dont understand.

It is unfair to translate one word in 1 verse according to how you like it and dont think about other verses in Quran. Quran does not have any contradiction. Its a God's words. Everything in it makes perfect sense, with no contradiction of verses amongst each other.

I do not believe this. Simply because im a firm believer of Islam and a firm believer of Quran. I believe in every single word of this final message of Allah almighty. No where is it written that an old prophet can come and the new cannot. Provide me one verse where your this belief hold truth, that it is OK for a previous prophet to come, but not ok if a prophet is born to muslim ummah. Your own belief is that when Jesus(as) will come, he will be a follower of Muhammad PBUH, and will make every decision based on Quran and ahadith and not from Gospels. I said it before that as far as the belief itself is concerned, i have no problem. We both are on the same page,but where we differ, is that Jesus(as), a prophet sent to bani israel is no longer alive and the prophet foretold to come after Muhammad PBUH will be from Muslim Ummah and not a prophet which was sent to bani israel. Thats all. You prove me from Quran and ahadith that Jesus(as) is still alive bodily in heavens and I will join you. But if you cant and will never be able to , then it is your duty to see and try to understand what message it is that Im trying to convey here. It is farz on you to find the truth as a muslim.

I have provided verses earlier in some other thread too, that a previous prophet cannot be a follower of the next prophet of him. Please see the verses below :

3:65 O People of the Book! why do you dispute concerning Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Will you not then understand?

And, verily, of his party was Abraham; (37:84) << referring to Noah(as).

[61:7] And remember when Jesus, son of Mary, said, ‘O children of Israel, surely I am Allah’s Messenger unto you, fulfilling that which is before me of the Torah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger who will come after me. His name will be Ahmad.’ And when he came to them with clear proofs, they said, ‘This is clear enchantment.’

Then there is a hadith regarding Musa(as)... ( i cant seem to find it , but i will if you like ), that Musa wanted to be a prophet in Islam, Allah refused. He (as) then said, let me just be an ordinary person in Muhammadi shariyah. Allah said , it cannot happen, as you are before him and he (saw) is after you.

All this suggest that a prophet can be grouped with a prophet PRIOR to him, not AFTER him. Jesus(as) gave glad tiding about Muhammad PBUH who will come AFTER him. He did not say, after him, I will come back again.

Regarding Abraham, Allah made it clear that he was neither jewish , nor christian, as both of these ummah became AFTER his demise.

There is no possible way you can find me any verse from Quran or hadith proving me wrong. IF new prophet cant come, then neither can old !!!. Same thing applies to Jesus(as). He was BEFORE. Muhammadi shariya is AFTER him.

PS: if you have more questions which you are hesitant to ask because of gs policies, then i welcome you or anyone to PM me and we will talk about anything and everything anyone is interested in.

I will reply to psyah in sometime too.

Assalam o alaikum warahmatullah.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Dear psyah, it seems that you are having problems with maze of words and their meanings. Dictionary meaning are only helpful in the sense that they bring to our attention various way of looking at the word however to choose the right meaning we must have objective. The quran uses many words with many diffeent meanings yet its objective only become clear when its texts are looked at its objectively and within its context. Just because a word is used in the quran in various places does not mean at all that it is use in the same sense everywhere. This is where are you seem to be stuck I assume.

Let me explain to you what I mean. Take words ZOJUKA, it is usually take as your wife but it depends on its context in its text as to its correct meaning. Since the quran is a divine constitution when it uses words that indicate human relationships it does not use them in sense of normal human relationships as we usually understand them but instead they become part of constitutional terminology. A word has a general meaning but also is redefined for its use in its context.

Therefore word ZOJUKA can also be used in sense of fellow worker. Can you see the big difference. It has sense companionship or company not necessarily wife or husband.

Take word UMMI and see how many different meanings this word has eg mummy, mother, foundational. We say mother organisation or daughter organisation. We also say sister company or country. It is therefore wrong to take a word and then dwell on it out of context and objectivity.

When we know humans were created to live in the earth then how can we dwell on they going some where else for a while? No sense at all. After all by rejecting world realities that give us basis for proof, what can we prove? You cannot blow up the plan and try to fly in it as well and that is what you are trying to do ie you are destroying basis for rationality and logic and proof and proving and then at the same time you are trying to use the same to prove your point the same way. You need to realise that vehicle must remain intact if you wish to use it or once it is blown up you cannot use it.

hope this helps, regards and all the best.

114

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mughal1

You are only repeating to me what I have been saying all along ... Sorry can't give that away to you ... reading in the appropriate context is my argument ...

It is because the context mandates it that we say that Isa (AS) was taken whole ... any other applied meaning dumbs the sense of it down and conflicts with the context.

The question is what is the context ... !!!

Look you bring the context of the verses around why Isa (AS) cannot be taken up alive and I'll bring the context of why he must have been ... then let's resume our discussion ...

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

lol. It seems like you are arguing just for the argument sake. With no knowledge of what you are saying now. I do understand your love for Islam. I do understand that you’re trying your utmost best to defend this belief, but really.. why ?

4:15 : Will they not, then, ponder over the Qur’an, or is it that on the hearts are their locks?

12:101 Let death come to me in a state of submission to Thy will and join me to the righteous.’

This is what you said is the ‘correct’ translation.
**Take me (while I am) a Muslim, and join me with the righteous
**
Whats the problem there? You said it means ‘take my soul’. Sure.. its a dua. Take my soul (give me death) when im in total submission to you(Allah). Join me with the ‘righteous’. Do you expect Allah to raise a person bodily up and join them with righteous? does it even make sense to you?? Please do not question whats in Quran and what you think it may have meant. If you say ‘take my soul’, then i just fail to understand whats the problem? why argue?

Ok. Thank you :). So, even in this verse, it means take those ‘souls’. Thank you for confirming and even elaborating that its referring to the hereafter. Therefore death. I again fail to understand why argue? We are talkin about the word. Word is referring to ‘soul’, and then referring to hereafter. Thus, death. Your analogy of ‘after death’ is very confusing. Clear the concept in your mind first.

You very cleverly only translated the word to meet your needs without taking into consideration if it even make sense to you, if you think it means taken up as in physically or after death.

Let me help you.

[2:234] And those of you who die and leave wives behind, these (wives) shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days. And when they have reached the end of their period, no sin shall lie on you in anything that they do with regard to themselves according to what is fair. And Allah is aware of what you do.

Here is what you say about the verse : Those who are taken from you.

If you put ur translation to that whole verse, then it would imply that when a person is taken up to heaven by Allah, their wives should wait that many months and days.. but why is it that wives are given freedom after their period, and that no sin shall lie on you, if you will be sent back to earth bodily ?? Does it really make sense to you?? Read the verse for Allah’s sake and try fitting your explanation in it.

[2:240]** And those of you who die and leave behind wives shall bequeath to their wives provision for a year without their being turned out**. But if they themselves go out, there shall be no blame upon you in regard to any proper thing which they do concerning themselves. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.

3:195 Our Lord, forgive us, therefore, our errors and remove from us our evils, **and in death number us with the righteous
**
even in this verse, it means death. Only Allah will know whose righteous and we should pray that after death, join us with the righteous.

Ok. Now comes the ‘vital clue’ verse/verses. :slight_smile:

[4:15] And those of your women who are guilty of lewdness — call to witness four of you against them; and if they bear witness, then confine them to the houses **until death overtake them or Allah open for them a way
**
Please come again. Try your luck again. See if there is anything I’m saying from which you can find flaw. Find me verses from quran where you find flaws? Quran is an absolute truth. No verse contradict any other verse. Everything there is crystal clear. Confine women in houses until death overtake them (not when they’re taken up bodily) ( taken up, as in , taken their souls .. hence death). or Allah open for them a way. I see no problem understanding what Allah is saying? Do you not understand ?

Same case with 6:61 ??? really ? ok lets have a look at that too , but lets also have a verse before it taken into consideration as well. :slight_smile:

[6:60] And He it is Who takes your souls by night and knows that which you do by day; then He raises you up again therein, that the appointed term may be completed. Then to Him is your return. Then will He inform you of what you used to do.
[6:61] And He is Supreme over His servants, and He sends guardians to watch over you, **until, when death comes to anyone of you, Our messengers take his soul, and they fail not.

**SubhanAllah. This is the book that i dearly love. Alhamdulillah, i thank Allah for guiding me to the true path, and making everything crystal clear for me to see and believe in. Please read Qur’an. Its an amazing book, with no rocket science involved in it. Like Allah says.. its a perfect book, there is no doubt in it; its a guidance to the righteous.

Your translations in the verses does not make sense. Please do revise them.

2:242 : Thus does Allah make His commandments clear to you that you may understand.

2:209 But if you slip after the clear Signs that have come to you, then know that Allah is Mighty, Wise

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

If your argument and your translation of one verse contradicts the entire Quran, then I will not believe you. I will believe what Allah and messenger of Allah has written in the book and preached to the people. Context is what my argument is as well. And you have a weak argument about context. I said it all along that there is no mention of him going to heaven bodily alive. Hence, i moved to the 'actual word' and showed u many verses.
Go ahead show me where it says bodily taken up?

My point is.. if your arguement of your translation (even after takin into account the context) contradicts the entire quran, then you are simply wrong, and simply believing fallacy !

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

DO read my replies very carefully everyone, as i really take my time out to read people's reply and to reply to them accordingly. They're very informative. Please do not keep looking at one side of the coin.

Thank you.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

Use the Arabic ... and stop repeating yourself ... I've said what I needed to say ...

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

The whole Qur'an is translated for you ... your Arabic is shoddy at best and ... you are not qualified to say what is or is not contradicting anything ... simple logic evades you. Instead of getting to personal matters and drawing me in to them also ... talk substance.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Yes, because you have got nothing else to say. I use the arabic Allah has used in Quran, Alhamdulillah.

O Yes!, talk about logic! . My arabic or yours, thats not the point. Tell me where I'm wrong, or dont tell me i'm not qualified to say something. Quran is for all of us, for everyone to ponder upon. I will not accept anyone falling in trap of the fairy tale that's been fed in your brains by mullahs without evidence.
** 2:111‘Produce your proof, if you are truthful.
**
This is what Allah commands me..

2:42 And confound not truth with falsehood nor hide the truth, knowingly

I shall repeat myself for as long as Allah permits me. I shall do anything and everything to deliver what Quran's actual teachings are.

Your words are very encouraging. Thank you.

17:82 And say, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished away. Falsehood does indeed vanish away fast

Good day/night to you.